a6 murder

[RonIpstone]

Are these the same friends that did not provide an alibi?

Maybe. It was one thing being party to duping Dixie France, it was another thing getting involved in a capital murder case.

[caz]

France: "Get the gun out of here, Jim, and go and sort your alibi. I suggest somewhere as far away as possible, like Liverpool. Oh and send us a telegram when you get there. That'll do us all a favour. We don't want 'em knowing you've been hanging out here, right?"

Hanratty: "Right. So what do you fink I should do with the shooter, Dix? It wouldn't be clever to take it to Liverpool with me."

France (sighing): "I don't care what you do with it as long as you get it the hell out of my house. Use your imagination. How do you normally get rid of stuff? You told me it was on a bus. Just stick it somewhere the sun don't shine."

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

...what reason have we to believe the truth about the forensic history of a forty year old fragment of cloth?

The point is, Nats, you can believe whatever you like about the history of that cloth. But you are here presumably to put the case for believing what you believe, contra the evidence as presented in the appeal court judgement. I can't help it if I don't find anything compelling in your arguments to reject it.

By the way,I hope you won"t be "emboldening" too many more of my posts--like you just have done with the 16th September date in the Carol France quip above ? MOre importantly ,I hope that it wont be thrown back insultingly by you ,along with a few of my earlier posts -for good measure- to "illustrate" how I am allegedly always shouting at you!

And I hope you are not accusing me of dirty tricks. It would be a stupid one to try, in any case, because one only has to check back to your original posts to see where it's you doing all the shouting, or me emphasising a potentially significant detail when quoting you.

I thought it was obvious that it was my emphasis on your date because it was so chilling to think that not long before this carefree outing Valerie was raped and left for dead in rather bleaker surroundings. I thought a bit of balance was in order, given the happy and innocent slant you were trying to put on things.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I would like to offer a few thoughts on why the A6 case provokes posts such as the one above and other emotion-laden contributions from both sides of the camp.

Your thoughts are welcome and appreciated, Limehouse, but please let me assure you that my post was anything but ‘emotion-laden’. I laid out my case for not taking debates like this - or the opinions any of us express here - personally. I rarely take anything posted to these message boards personally, but I am aware that many others do.

The shock and horror of what happened back in 1961 has not touched me emotionally; I was seven at the time. I cannot begin to put myself in Valerie’s place or imagine her suffering, then or now. So I don’t. Maybe my detachment makes me appear cold, clinical and uncaring to other, more passionate posters. I tend to reserve my warmth, passion and emotions for life away from the boards; they would mostly be out of place here.

The death penalty is long gone in this country and I say good riddance. But in 1961 a criminal knew what he was in for if a jury believed him guilty of murder. There is very little chance of it ever being brought back, thank goodness, because one or more jury members would almost certainly be against it, and would never allow a unanimous guilty verdict to be delivered.

I see no ‘romance’ in this sordid tale. Hanratty was hardly ‘a bit of a rogue’, and neither he nor Gregsten were capable, by all accounts, of keeping it in their trousers. Valerie, like Hanratty, was single, but possibly wished she wasn’t. It was an everyday story, repeated by thousands of couples all over the country. The difference here is that a man with a gun, an erection waiting to happen, and not much by way of brains or a conscience, was out looking for something to do with it all when he found a car with a courting couple in it, who were already having their fun.

The 'placement' of some of the evidence reminds one of a Miss Marple mystery - everything the police needed to connect the accused to the crime falling into place.

Sometimes, everything the police need to connect the murderer to his crime falls into place. But one can hardly say that of the A6 case in its early days of Alphon and Hanratty, with Nudds acting as ref, and virtually no forensics until Hanratty’s DNA was finally identified. The basics in 1961 were the right blood group, the victim’s certainty and the accused failing to say where he was, when his very life depended on the jury believing it was anywhere but that car.

For those who believe Hanratty was guilty the finality of the outcome is justice for Mike and for Valerie and for their friends and families. For those who doubt Hanratty's guilt - the outcome is justice for no one.

What if Hanratty had not been hanged? How would we feel if he had spent the last forty-nine years in jail? Would we still be listening to his pleas of innocence? Would others who have lived in the shadows of this terrible crime stepped out of the shadows and spoken up?

Well France could not have spoken up, and we know that whenever Alphon spoke up he said nothing that proved he had any inside information. The big difference is that Hanratty would have been alive to volunteer his DNA as soon as it gave him the chance of freedom. We’ll never know how he would have handled that, or whether his pleas of innocence would have quietened down at the outcome or turned to howls of injustice. But I imagine he’d have died in prison.

I am in the fortunate state of accepting that the evidence proves beyond doubt that justice was done and a very dangerous man was taken out of society, by whatever means. Maybe I’m kidding myself and the real killer got away with it. But for what it’s worth I don’t envy those who live with a genuine belief that he was never brought to justice. At least that’s something that Valerie hasn’t had to live with. I’d like to think we could all be happy for that small mercy.

Love,

Caz
X

[Harry the Hawker]

You're right. Just Google "London Cafes Dixie France" and you'll get there. It's an interesting site anyway.

Graham

Wonderful site Graham, thank you!

[Natalie Severn]

And I hope you are not accusing me of dirty tricks. It would be a stupid one to try, in any case, because one only has to check back to your original posts to see where it's you doing all the shouting, or me emphasising a potentially significant detail when quoting you.

I thought it was obvious that it was my emphasis on your date because it was so chilling to think that not long before this carefree outing Valerie was raped and left for dead in rather bleaker surroundings. I thought a bit of balance was in order, given the happy and innocent slant you were trying to put on things.

Yes--well I have seen the way you make a bee line for any "potentially significant detail" you can use to "embolden" my words -while every single week taking some opportunity to claim I am "shouting at you"!Come off it!

Anyway why on earth didnt you make it clear in this last instance today ,what you were objecting to---instead of taking the liberty to ,yet again "embolden" one of my posts?

The picture of Carol France was to illustrate that Hanratty, far from being unattractive to women, could apparently get pretty girls to go out with him whenever he wanted!Therefore it follows that it was absurd to suggest that he was so desperate for sex that he raced out of London on the night of 22nd /23rd August to do a "stick up" with a gun in a cornfield ---to get a girl already ensconced with a man in a car just so so he could rape her- as the prosecution suggested.
Hanratty,in all his twenty four years , didnt actually have a single conviction in his entire history of petty crime for any kind of violence -still less rape or murder , moreover, none of his young girlfriends ever came forward to say anything but kindly things about his gentle manners and behaviour . Mary Meaden went so far as to suggest his behaviour towards her was "impeccable" and GladysDeacon and Anne Price also spoke well of him. So did the France family come to that.

[Graham]

Hanratty,in all his twenty four years , didnt actually have a single conviction in his entire history of petty crime for any kind of violence -still less rape or murder , moreover, none of his young girlfriends ever came forward to say anything but kindly things about his gentle manners and behaviour

I think the same is true of Peter Sutcliffe who, until he began his campaign of assault and murder in July 1975, had only convictions (or a conviction) for petty theft. I also believe that his wife described him as a normal person when he was with her. It'd take someone with a deeper insight than mine into human psychology to explain what tips a man over the edge, so to speak.

Graham

[Graham]

Mary Meaden went so far as to suggest his behaviour towards her was "impeccable" and GladysDeacon and Anne Price also spoke well of him.

Those who knew him and survived their knowing him, also said the same of Ted Bundy....

...and Fred West was said to be very charming when he needed to be...

...and Adolf Hitler loved dogs.

Graham

[Zodiac]

I think the same is true of Peter Sutcliffe who, until he began his campaign of assault and murder in July 1975, had only convictions (or a conviction) for petty theft. I also believe that his wife described him as a normal person when he was with her. It'd take someone with a deeper insight than mine into human psychology to explain what tips a man over the edge, so to speak.

Graham

You're quite right about Sutcliffe Graham. Petty theft and some minor motoring offences. He was often described as quiet, polite and helpful. He was a caring husband, he was not unattractive to women, one surviving victim describing him as having "come to bed eyes". During the Ripper murders he would often give female co-workers lifts home, ensuring that they got home safely and warning them to be careful of the Ripper!

He was described as a "model worker" worker by his employers, their most trusted driver. When the company had a promotional calender produced, it chose Sutcliffe to be the driver photographed at the the wheel of one of their trucks for use on the cover! An big enlargement of this photo adorned the wall behind their reception desk, greeting all who visited!

He certainly didn't seem to be the type to murder anyone did he? But then, thats the problem with criminals in general and murderers in particular, they're so damn deceitful aren't they? Always seeming to be something other than what they are, always pulling the wool over peoples eyes!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Graham]

Hi Zodiac,

You're right about killers. The mother of a former colleague of mine had Dr Harold Shipman as her GP, and even after his dastardly deeds were made public she wouldn't hear a word said against him!

Graham

[Zodiac]

The picture of Carol France was to illustrate that Hanratty, far from being unattractive to women, could apparently get pretty girls to go out with him whenever he wanted!

Hi Nats,

Ted Bundy, far from being unattractive to women, could apparently get pretty girls to go out with him whenever he wanted! Therefore it follows that it was absurd to suggest that he... oh...wait... err... no!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Graham]

Wonderful site Graham, thank you!

It's all about a lost era, Harry. As you say, a wonderful site, and although I'm not a Londoner it's on my favourites list.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

Ted Bundy, far from being unattractive to women, could apparently get pretty girls to go out with him whenever he wanted! Therefore it follows that it was absurd to suggest that he... oh...wait... err... no!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

But didnt Ted Bundy begin to murder when he was a young paper boy of twelve? Peter Sutcliffe was not at all liked by his fellow lorry drivers---he was a loner and few people knew anything about him. The point about Hanratty is that there was no record of any violence at all.

[Zodiac]

Hi Zodiac,

You're right about killers. The mother of a former colleague of mine had Dr Harold Shipman as her GP, and even after his dastardly deeds were made public she wouldn't hear a word said against him!

Graham

Hi Graham,

I'm just glad to hear that she was still alive to disbelieve it!!!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Natalie Severn]

I think the same is true of Peter Sutcliffe who, until he began his campaign of assault and murder in July 1975, had only convictions (or a conviction) for petty theft. I also believe that his wife described him as a normal person when he was with her. It'd take someone with a deeper insight than mine into human psychology to explain what tips a man over the edge, so to speak.

Graham

I dont think Peter Sutcliffe or Harold Shipman or Bundy ever went out to do stick ups in order to rape one of their victims in a car where that victim was with her lover. Maybe Zodiac did?