a6 murder

[RonIpstone]

Probably familiar to most, but still interesting from an A6 viewpoint, even though not totally accurate with regard to Dixie France's suicide.

Also note the reference to the 'arsenal of weapons' under the counter...possible source of the .38 Enfield?

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/confessional_harmony.ht

Graham

Hello Graham,

Your link does not seem to work.

Ron

[Graham]

Hello Graham,

Your link does not seem to work.

Ron

You're right. Just Google "London Cafes Dixie France" and you'll get there. It's an interesting site anyway.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

You're right. Just Google "London Cafes Dixie France" and you'll get there. It's an interesting site anyway.

Graham

I think you missed the 'm' off 'htm'

Dixie's Caff

[jimarilyn]

Yeah, well, all right - maybe 'obvious' wasn't quite the right word, but if it's accepted, as it is by most, that JH left the gun on the bus, then he must have been around for at least the day after the crime.

Lord Russell has a fair bit to say on this whole matter, Graham. The following two paragraphs (copied from pp136-137 of his book) read as follows.....(and are very pertinent)

That, Mr. Sherrard said, might sound "pretty grim", but what did it really prove so far as this case was concerned ? It was not disputed that Hanratty had told France one day that such a seat was a good hiding place. The accused never even attempted to deny that he had said this. Was it likely that he would freely admit this when giving evidence at his trial, knowing how it might go against him, if he were guilty of the crime ? According to the evidence the gun and cartridges were put on the bus on 24th August, not on the 23rd. Surely Hanratty if he had, indeed, murdered Gregsten would want to get rid of this damning piece of evidence and would certainly have dumped it in some lonely spot in the country shortly after leaving the scene of the crime ? But he did not do this and Mr Swanwick was, therefore, faced with the necessity of producing a reason for this most natural and sensible reaction not having been taken.. He therefore suggested towards the end of his cross-examination of the accused that he had then decided to lie low for a day thinking what to do.

"Where is the evidence of that ?" Mr Sherrard asked the jury. The gun was found after 8 pm on 24th August and was not there on the 23rd. The bus only makes two journeys on the same day, 5.40 am. to 8.50 am. and 3.43 pm. to 7.23 pm. If it had been put there during the morning run when the bus was quieter was it not significant that, despite the attempts that were made, nobody from the bus, neither the conductor nor anybody else, came forward to say a word about seeing Hanratty on or near the bus ? "Where was he hiding ?" Mr Sherrard asked. "Why have his friends for one solitary day ceased to be convenient ? It is just not this man." The gun could not, in any event, have been left on the bus during the late afternoon run because, whatever else the jury may or may not have believed about the accused's Liverpool alibi, the telegram sent by him to Dixie France on the 24th proved conclusively where Hanratty was when it was despatched. He was in Liverpool.

[NickB]

So "Take what fits and let it fit" is not actually a quote from the prosecution but from the defence's portrayal of the prosecution.

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

You're absolutely right.

The paragraph in Lord Russell's excellent book from which Michael Sherrard's quote comes is on page 134. It came during Mr Sherrard's summing up to the jury. and the said paragraph reads in it's entirety as follows............

Mr Sherrard then mentioned a number of things upon which the Crown were relying and which "just did not fit" Hanratty. "There is so much that does not fit," counsel said, "and that is why the prosecution are driven to saying in as serious a matter as this ; 'Take what fits and let it fit : take what does not and discard it -- a bluff, a blind.' If we are going to have an approach of that kind, then in my submission the system of trial by jury is a waste of time. It would be a bad thing that we should get down to trial by police, because that is what the approach would mean in a case of this gravity. You cannot just brush everything aside and say : 'Where it does not fit it just does not : it was a blind; it was a bluff'."

Thanks for finding that Quote James. It's saved me a trip upstairs!

It's astonishing that the judge allowed such a comment to stand when a man's life depended on the jury's decision.

[Graham]

So "Take what fits and let it fit" is not actually a quote from the prosecution but from the defence's portrayal of the prosecution.

Exactly, Nick. Had Swanwick said that, or even implied it, he'd have been pounced on by the judge. Swanwick was far too shrewd an advocate to ruin his case by coming out with anything like that.

Graham

[Graham]

"Where is the evidence of that ?" Mr Sherrard asked the jury. The gun was found after 8 pm on 24th August and was not there on the 23rd. The bus only makes two journeys on the same day, 5.40 am. to 8.50 am. and 3.43 pm. to 7.23 pm. If it had been put there during the morning run when the bus was quieter was it not significant that, despite the attempts that were made, nobody from the bus, neither the conductor nor anybody else, came forward to say a word about seeing Hanratty on or near the bus ?

If JH sent the telegram from Liverpool on the 24th, then either he placed the gun on the bus between the times noted above, on the 23rd, and the gun wasn't found until late on the 24th, or the bus wasn't checked at all on the 23rd. Or the gun was placed on the bus during an early morning run on the 24th which would give JH time to get to Liverpool on the same day. Or the gun was placed on the bus by someone else on the 24th.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

The gun could not, in any event, have been left on the bus during the late afternoon run because, whatever else the jury may or may not have believed about the accused's Liverpool alibi, the telegram sent by him to Dixie France on the 24th proved conclusively where Hanratty was when it was despatched. He was in Liverpool.[/COLOR][/I][/B]

Agreed, subject to reservations, that Hanratty must have left the gun and ammunition on the bus in the morning of 24th August.

But how do we know that Hanratty sent the telegram from Liverpool on the evening of 24 August? We know that someone calling himself Mr P Ryan sent Dixie an overnight telegram phoned in from a booth outside Lime Street. Hanratty, hiding out in the big smoke, could easily have phoned one of his Liverpool mates to get him to send the telegram. The idea might even have come from Dixie himself if Hanratty were hiding out at the France household. It would provide a limited alibi for Hanratty and deflect charges of being an accessory after the fact away from Dixie for harbouring Hanratty.

If the telegram had been phoned in by a proxy then this would have given Hanratty all day to dispose of the gun, so the afternoon bus run would have been as viable as the morning one.

This leaves the question, why did Hanratty not get rid of the gun out in the sticks where it would be unlikely to be discovered so quickly or at all? Indeed leaving it in the Moggie Minor would have a better option for Hanratty, but I think he must have paid something for the gun and was reluctant to throw it away until in his own limited mind he had exhausted all the possibilities for its future use. Having resolved to dispose of the gun, where better than the trusty back seat of the bus? None of his previous disposals had been traced back to him, why should the gun? He may even have forgotten about telling Dixie about the secret place he used to get rid of paste jewellery, so what risk was there to him?

[jimarilyn]

Exactly, Nick. Had Swanwick said that, or even implied it, he'd have been pounced on by the judge. Swanwick was far too shrewd an advocate to ruin his case by coming out with anything like that.

Graham

I'm sure also that Judge William Gorman [or Swanwick] would have rebuked Sherrard for saying something that was not true. The fact that he didn't is very revealing.

[Limehouse]

Agreed, subject to reservations, that Hanratty must have left the gun and ammunition on the bus in the morning of 24th August.

But how do we know that Hanratty sent the telegram from Liverpool on the evening of 24 August? We know that someone calling himself Mr P Ryan sent Dixie an overnight telegram phoned in from a booth outside Lime Street. Hanratty, hiding out in the big smoke, could easily have phoned one of his Liverpool mates to get him to send the telegram. The idea might even have come from Dixie himself if Hanratty were hiding out at the France household. It would provide a limited alibi for Hanratty and deflect charges of being an accessory after the fact away from Dixie for harbouring Hanratty.
If the telegram had been phoned in by a proxy then this would have given Hanratty all day to dispose of the gun, so the afternoon bus run would have been as viable as the morning one.
This leaves the question, why did Hanratty not get rid of the gun out in the sticks where it would be unlikely to be discovered so quickly or at all? Indeed leaving it in the Moggie Minor would have a better option for Hanratty, but I think he must have paid something for the gun and was reluctant to throw it away until in his own limited mind he had exhausted all the possibilities for its future use. Having resolved to dispose of the gun, where better than the trusty back seat of the bus? None of his previous disposals had been traced back to him, why should the gun? He may even have forgotten about telling Dixie about the secret place he used to get rid of paste jewellery, so what risk was there to him?

Are these the same friends that did not provide an alibi?

[NickB]

I'm sure also that Judge William Gorman [or Swanwick] would have rebuked Sherrard for saying something that was not true. The fact that he didn't is very revealing.

How do you know he didn't?

If Swanwick had said what the defence claimed then Russell would have quoted Swanwick. The fact that he doesn't is what is revealing.

[jimarilyn]

But how do we know that Hanratty sent the telegram from Liverpool on the evening of 24 August? We know that someone calling himself Mr P Ryan sent Dixie an overnight telegram phoned in from a booth outside Lime Street. Hanratty, hiding out in the big smoke, could easily have phoned one of his Liverpool mates to get him to send the telegram. The idea might even have come fromhim?

As a certain J.P. McEnroe might have said "You can't be serious !"

We can be pretty sure that James Hanratty was in Liverpool on the evening of August 24th.
An hour or so earlier he'd tried unsuccessfully to get into Liverpool Stadium to watch Howard Winstone defeat the Ghanaian boxer Aryee Jackson on points.

For anyone who's interested here's a little snippet from the Times the following day.....


PS. Incidentally this is not me (James) writing this post. It's some bloke called Jimarilyn.

[jimarilyn]

If JH sent the telegram from Liverpool on the 24th, then either he placed the gun on the bus between the times noted above, on the 23rd, and the gun wasn't found until late on the 24th, or the bus wasn't checked at all on the 23rd.

He must have had a very long arm indeed to stretch across all those counties between Rhyl and London and place the gun on that bus.

[RonIpstone]

As a certain J.P. McEnroe might have said "You can't be serious !"

We can be pretty sure that James Hanratty was in Liverpool on the evening of August 24th.
An hour or so earlier he'd tried unsuccessfully to get into Liverpool Stadium to watch Howard Winstone defeat the Ghanaian boxer Aryee Jackson on points.

Who saw him try to get into the Liverpool Stadium?

This sounds very much like another Hanratty fabrication to designed to give his alibi verisimilitude. I for one would be suspicious of Hanratty account of the evening of 24th, but even if he had established his presence in Liverpool on that evening, it means he left London by train that morning, unless, of course, he flew up to Speke.