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  • Victor,
    For what its worth I believe Supt Acott had intitially been convinced of Alphon"s guilt.It is my impression that he was quite thrown when Valerie didnt pick him---because it was at that exact moment that he dropped Alphon and went back to the Vienna Hotel and requestioned Nudds and Hanratty appeared on the horizon and seemed to sort of "fit the bill ".In Acott"s mind the mystery was located in the Vienna Hotel where the cartridge cases were found,hence his next suspect, a man known to the police and with a criminal record---which Alphon did not have [save for the motorbike theft].
    In my opinion what is pivotal in all this then is Valerie Storie"s identification.
    It is my view that Valerie could have been mistaken the second time round too.That Valerie never actually got a good enough view of her attacker---Look again at the very similar case we discussed last week-that of Jennifer Thompson :

    Known Cases of Eyewitness Error

    The Innocence Project has facilitated the exoneration of 214 men who were convicted of crimes they did not commit, as a result of faulty eyewitness evidence.[5] A number of these cases have received substantial attention from the media.
    Jennifer Thompson's case is one example: She was a college student in North Carolina in 1984, when a man broke into her apartment, put a knife to her throat, and raped her. According to her own account, Ms. Thompson studied her rapist throughout the incident with great determination to memorize his face. "I studied every single detail on the rapist's face. I looked at his hairline; I looked for scars, for tattoos, for anything that would help me identify him. When and if I survived the attack, I was going to make sure that he was put in prison and he was going to rot."[6]

    Ms. Thompson went to the police station later that same day to work up a [composite sketch] of her attacker, relying on what she believed was her detailed memory. Several days later, the police constructed a photographic lineup, and she selected Ronald Junior Cotton from the lineup. She later testified against him at trial. She was positive it was him, without any doubt in her mind. "I was sure. I knew it. I had picked the right guy, and he was going to go to jail. If there was the possibility of a death sentence, I wanted him to die. I wanted to flip the switch."[7]
    But she was wrong, as DNA results eventually showed. It turns out she was even presented with her actual attacker during a second trial proceeding a year after the attack, but swore she'd never seen the man before in her life. She remained convinced that Ronald Cotton was her attacker, and it was not until much later, after Mr. Cotton had served 11 years in prison for a crime he did not commit, that she realized that she had made a grave mistake.
    Jennifer Thompson's memory had failed her, resulting in a substantial injustice. It took definitive DNA testing to shake her confidence, but she now knows that despite her confidence in her identification, it was wrong. Cases like Ms. Thompson's, including a long history of eyewitness errors traceable back to Biblical times, prompted the emergence of a field within the social sciences dedicated to the study of eyewitness memory and the causes....continued on net

    Best
    Norma

    Comment


    • ............................ and here we have the other side of the coin where the DNA evidence has backed up the identification evidence.

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      • Originally posted by RonIpstone View Post
        ............................ and here we have the other side of the coin where the DNA evidence has backed up the identification evidence.
        We do indeed. But yesterday I posted text from the internet on Robert Napper.A paranoid schizophrenic who killed and "raped" ---but frequently left no evidence in terms of body fluid[he was called the "virgin rapist".
        Hanratty"s seminal fluid was scraped from the fly area of his trousers by the pathologist in the same lab on the same day [28/Dec 1961] as the knickers had a small piece cut from them for testing.We are told this was done after the trousers had been attended to so it is certainly possible for contamination to have taken place at that point.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
          Hanratty"s seminal fluid was scraped from the fly area of his trousers by the pathologist in the same lab on the same day [28/Dec 1961] as the knickers had a small piece cut from them for testing.We are told this was done after the trousers had been attended to so it is certainly possible for contamination to have taken place at that point.
          Hi Norma,

          It wasn't the same day! The knickers were seen the day after the trousers. Secondly, it is not a definite fact that semen was washed or scraped from the trousers, but it is likely.

          KR,
          Vic.
          Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
          Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.

          Comment


          • Once again we come back to the same point, it was possible for the exhibits to have been contaminated with Hanratty's DNA but not to the extent that the real rapist's DNA would disappear.

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            • Originally posted by RonIpstone View Post
              Once again we come back to the same point, it was possible for the exhibits to have been contaminated with Hanratty's DNA but not to the extent that the real rapist's DNA would disappear.
              Surely though ,if the real rapist didnt leave seminal fluid as per Napper ,then what DNA he left could have been eroded -for example after the 1995 testing which had first washed out and then sanitised the sample of cloth in a special solution so that all residual matter was got rid of.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                Surely though ,if the real rapist didnt leave seminal fluid as per Napper ,then what DNA he left could have been eroded -for example after the 1995 testing which had first washed out and then sanitised the sample of cloth in a special solution so that all residual matter was got rid of.
                But he did, and the forensic science of the day detected that it belonged to a blood group O secretor; MG was blood group AB; Hanratty and Alphon were both group O.

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                • Oh Gawd! Just when the debate had started to become interesting, addressing non-DNA aspects of the case again, back comes the flippin' DNA like a stuck record - round and round and round.....

                  Graham
                  We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                  Comment


                  • OK Graham.I will leave it out.I dont know enough about DNA anyway.

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                    • Sorry, this thread is moving so fast it is difficult to catch up!

                      Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                      In the statement made by Pamela Patt of 26th September 1961 that I have access to, she has this to say:
                      "In the first journey to KIlburn the passengers were all regular ones....
                      “... with one exception.” See here 160-162.


                      Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
                      The man described on the bus could have been anyone. Nomention of eye colour or whether he was carrying anything? Like, six boxes of cartidghes and a big gun would have been bulky enbough to notice i would think?
                      The raincoat could have concealed the weapon and cartridges.
                      It couldn’t have been anyone. For example, it wasn’t Dixie France.
                      Last edited by NickB; 07-22-2010, 08:45 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                        So Re your question Caz, ---at this present time I am trying not to believe that such absolutely shocking things seem to have happened as these "rearranged notes" but in the light of such shocking discoveries I would reserve all judgment until I know more about the reliability of LCN DNA tests that were carried out incriminating Hanratty through a scrap of cloth that was undoubtedly contaminated with Hanratty"s "copious" body fluid [I bet the prison laundry was visited on more than one occasion ] and some old hanky that had made a magical "reappearance" having mysteriously "disappeared" for half a century only to have been "rediscovered" somewhere in Bedford Police Dept since Hanratty was sentenced to death there---perhaps the latest and most remarkable "co-incidence" in a case of truly astonishing and extraordinary "coincidences ---the DNA that would at last solve everything---and get this Hanratty problem buried for good-.

                        [btw -regarding Alphon---I would feel exactly the same as I do about the Hanratty case actually,despite him being their first suspect and despite him having confessed to the crime.
                        Thank you Nats, for your honest answer that you would have rejected any other DNA result for the same reasons you reject the one we have.

                        It's a pity, after posting the above, that you felt compelled to put the boot into me on the 'Burka' thread, for my insistence on an answer here.

                        All I will say for now is that if the above is you reserving 'all judgment' until you know more, I'd hate to see you in full flow if you had any actual evidence that the DNA results were fabricated, using knowingly contaminated samples, to bury 'this Hanratty problem' for good.

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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                        • Regarding the query about Alphon in later life, The Independent has some info.

                          In 1994 they reported that someone (who, although not named, must have been Alphon) had been interviewed by police.
                          POLICE have interviewed a man in connection with the A6 murder for which James Hanratty was hanged 32 years ago, writes Andrew Gliniecki.


                          In 1996 he told the Independent on Sunday: "I'm refusing to say whether I committed the murder or not. I do deny that I regularly confessed to it. I want a full public inquiry - I have nothing to fear."


                          In an interview in January 1997 he denied his own involvement, as featured in two articles.
                          `Before his execution, Hanratty protested his innocence to his family: I'm dying tomorrow. Clear my name'

                          A petty crook was hanged for what was dubbed the crime of the century. But he didn't do it, writes Jason Bennetto
                          Last edited by NickB; 07-22-2010, 08:49 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by caz View Post

                            It's a pity, after posting the above, that you felt compelled to put the boot into me on the 'Burka' thread, for my insistence on an answer here.
                            Now I wonder why I am thinking of pots and kettles, Caz?

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                            • Hi Nick,

                              with his confessions, retractions and denials, Alphon makes Mike Barratt (of Ripper Diary infamy) seem like a rank amateur. Alphon was involved in the A6 Case, initially, because of pure coincidence and nothing more. I can only suggest that he lived in some kind of permanent state of unreality - any normal man would have run a mile as soon as he had been cleared of involvement, but Alphon as we all know kinda stuck around...like an addicit, one might say. As I intimated in an earlier post, the Alphon that we know was, to a degree, the creation of one Jean Justice.

                              Just thoughts, that's all.

                              Graham
                              We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NickB View Post


                                “... with one exception.” See here 160-162.
                                I read that Nick , thanks, but why could that not have been Alphon? His hair was like that unless he brylcreamed it---according to Jean Justice it darkened and smoothed out when he applied the cream,and he then swept it backwards.He also had a caseful of dirty clothes which Juliana Galves saw when she opened the door to his room and saw he looked very dishevelled-on top of the dirty clothes were the pair of black nylon ladies gloves.Its true that on his arrival he was said to look smart but not the following day.

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