a6 murder

[Victor]

The public were cheated, the system was cheated. I don't regard myself as having been cheated. I, I'm really an intermediate player, but Hanratty was hanged. He was cheated. If the other material that was not disclosed to us would have made the difference, so it, it's fair to say that there seems to be a strong argument at least for saying that the trial was fatally flawed and the word fatal has a real significance in this context.

And what of Valerie and Gregsten? Was he fatally cheated too? Was she cheated far far worse?

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

For the Caddy Review, see this too...

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/101_08/

KR,
Vic.

Well surely this is simply a sort of safety net review asked of Caddy? And subsequently a restating of confidence regarding the current conventional view in Britain re LCN DNA testing.But thankfully questions are now being asked here in the UK ,which is a good thing.Things move more slowly over here because not so many people sue as in the States.
Cheers
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Well thanks again Graham

[Natalie Severn]

And what of Valerie and Gregsten? Was he fatally cheated too? Was she cheated far far worse?

KR,
Vic.

Well ofcourse, it was absolutely tragic for Valerie Storie and Michael Gregsten and it has also to be said, that it was horrendous for Gregsten"s poor wife Janet and their two sons .
But what has that got to do with whether the person on trial for his life over it was given a fair trial?

[jimarilyn]

For me, if the evidence against another suspect was the same as that against Hanratty, then I would have the same doubts as I have now.

I don't believe this case was thoroughly investigated, I think some of the evidence was fabricated or manipulated, there are far too many unexplained aspects to the case - for example why there is an absence of any forensic evidence in the car from the attacker WHOEVER HE WAS.

I think Valerie was lead shamefully at both indentity parades and I think the case was returned to Bedford from the Old Bailey because it was known the evidence was questionable and a jury sitting closer to the location of the crime was more likely to convict due to the strength of feeling about the crime locally.

If all these aspects - and more I have mentioned again, were stacked against another suspect, I would have the same doubts as I have now. In other words, it is not Hanratty himself that raises the doubts in me, it is the almost the whole investigation and its outcomes.

Excellently put, Julie. I feel sure that all believer's in Hanratty's innocence would go along with everything you say.

[jimarilyn]

Clearly John [post 5583] has read up on what was in the car viz finger prints etc ----but where is this information to be found I wonder? Some of the withheld information concerned the mileage that the car did that night.Apparently in excess of two hundred miles were clocked up and police knew this because Michael Gregsten kept meticulous records of his mileage in a logbook which they examined.Also withheld from the trial were a number of sightings some as far away as Derby.The mileage covered,had it been known in court,would have cast doubt on the claims of the Trower and Blackhall witnesses to have seen Hanratty driving the car near the Ilford side street at seven in the morning.

Hi Norma,

What I find hard to believe [if we are to accept that it was the murder car seen in Redbridge around 7am] is how on earth it took 11 and a half hours before it was discovered, badly parked on Avondale Crescent. This was after all the most sought after car in England on August 23rd. Radio and news bulletins had been issued all day, with a full description of the car and it's registration plate number. It had a blood-stained interior and dented number plate. The school summer holidays were still in full bloom and there must have been lots of inquisitive school children playing in that area. When I was growing up in Liverpool in the early to mid sixties me and my mates would often look at the speedometers of parked-up cars to see how fast they could go (if it was 100, 120, 140 mph, etc ). i can imagine that to have been the case in London too.

About 18 months ago I submitted a post which suggested that the possible sighting of the murder car in Birstall was quite feasible......................

Hi All,

The Court of Appeal judgment of 2002 was rather dismissive of the reported sightings of the murder car at Matlock, Coventry and Birstall (near Leicester), most likely because they didn't fit in with their own pre-conceived notions of the car's movements subsequent to the murder.

Below I will illustrate that the sighting by John Douglas in Birstall is indeed more than possible........

Michael Gregsten apparently kept a meticulous log of what the mileage was whenever he stopped for petrol.
The recorded mileage when he stopped for petrol on 22nd of August was 51875 miles.
Harry Hirons, a petrol pump attendant at the Shell Garage at Kingsbury Circle testified that he put 2 gallons of petrol in the car.
This could well have been the first time that day that MG had stopped for petrol.
VS said that there was already about 2 gallons of petrol in the car at this point in time.
According to Google Earth the distance from Kingsbury Circle to Deadman's Hill is 39.1 miles, and the distance from Deadman's Hill to Birstall is 72.3 miles making a grand total of 111.4 miles.
The approximate 4 gallons of petrol in the car at Kingsbury would get the Morris Minor as far as Birstall before the car's fuel gauge was pointing to near empty and ready for re-fuelling.
John Douglas, a petrol pump attendant at a Birstall garage, made a mental note of the registration number of a blueish-grey car which had stopped for petrol about 12 noon on 23rd of August. The registration number was that of the Morris Minor (847 BHN).
Mr Douglas said the occupants of the car were a man and a woman and that the man spoke with a southern accent.
According to Google Earth the distance from Birstall to Avondale Crescent is 119 miles.
When you add the 2 distances together ( the 111.4 miles and the 119 miles ) one gets a grand total of 230.4 miles.
The covered mileage of the car (which Baz Acott kept hidden from the defence team) from the point at which MG put petrol in it to where it was abandoned in Avondale Crescent was 232 miles. (The odometer read 52107 miles at Avondale)

Food for thought perhaps............


regards,
James

[Graham]

Per Woffinden, it would seem that the Morris wasn't parked in Avondale Crescent until the early evening, probably not long before Alan Madwar spotted it and reported it. The CCRC's investigations (according to Woffinden) showed that the Morris was seen elsewhere in the country, and that the mileage of the car didn't add up to a straight drive from Deadman's Hill to Redbridge. I am very inclined to accept that the car was seen by at least one witness elsewhere in the country. I am also inclined to consider that the grey Morris seen by witnesses in the early morning being driven erratically wasn't the murder-car. There's always been doubt and confusion regarding the mileage of the car, something that will now probably never be cleared up unless the complete police records of the case are ever made public.

By the way, didn't some woman living on Avondale Crescent also have a grey Morris Minor which she parked on the road? Could this have a bearing on earlier sightings?

Graham

[RonIpstone]

Per Woffinden, it would seem that the Morris wasn't parked in Avondale Crescent until the early evening, probably not long before Alan Madwar spotted it and reported it. The CCRC's investigations (according to Woffinden) showed that the Morris was seen elsewhere in the country, and that the mileage of the car didn't add up to a straight drive from Deadman's Hill to Redbridge. I am very inclined to accept that the car was seen by at least one witness elsewhere in the country. I am also inclined to consider that the grey Morris seen by witnesses in the early morning being driven erratically wasn't the murder-car. There's always been doubt and confusion regarding the mileage of the car, something that will now probably never be cleared up unless the complete police records of the case are ever made public.

By the way, didn't some woman living on Avondale Crescent also have a grey Morris Minor which she parked on the road? Could this have a bearing on earlier sightings?

Graham

Hello Graham,

If the car had not been left in Avondale Crescent until the early evening then this would let Alphon off the hook as he was seen in the Vienna in the late morning of 23 August 1961. It could not be suggested that Alphon, had he been the murderer, after killing Gregsten and raping Valerie Storie, then took a drive from Deadman's Hill up to Birstall, north of Leicester, then managed to get back to Maida Vale to pack his suitcase, leaving the Moggie Minor parked somewhere nearby so he could move it later in the day to be abandoned in east London.

It also seems improbable that anyone would commit the murder in the early hours of the 23 August then drive north for the purpose only of putting a couple of gallons of petrol in the tank, then drive south, possibly passing the murder scene in the rush -hour and then abandon the car in the evening at Avondale Crescent.

My view is that even the notoriously dim and stupid Bedfordshire jury would not have been taken in by the Birstall tale and Hanratty was better served trying to put the blame on Alphon.

Ron

[Graham]

Hi Ron,

I never seriously considered Alphon as a suspect anyway, and agree with your statement regarding when he was seen at the Vienna.

I could go along with the car being seen in Bedford by the milkman who also gave some accurate details of the vehicle's number (whether at the time or when the car's registration was common knowledge I can't say), but not the Birstall sighting nor other reported sightings in Derby and, I think, Matlock. Maybe JH was in a state of confusion and shock after what he'd done, and drove around aimlessly for a while - maybe stopping somewhere to clean the inside of the car?

I'd still like to know why you call the Bedford jury dim and stupid - my old man was born in Bedford and he certainly wasn't either!

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Street view of Deadman's Hill

I went up and down Deadman's Hill earlier today without leaving my home, thanks to the Street View function of Google Maps . Absolutely fascinating. As you go along this road you can see the lay-by on the left-hand side (much different to how it looked in 1961) and a few hundred yards further up on the right you see those cottages.

For anyone unfamiliar with how to do this just go to the Google Maps UK website and type in "Clophill, Bedford" in the search box. When the google map appears click on that small orange figure of a man (on the left hand side of page) and drag it onto "Deadman's Hill". The street view image of Deadman's Hill then appears and you can go up and down, left and right with a 360 degree panoramic view. To travel along the road just point the arrow to where you want to go, left-click it once and then double-click it to move further along the road.

You can travel along Avondale Crescent and the surrounding area in the same way.
As I say all quite fascinating,

Haven't travelled the Dorney Area yet.

Just a pity that Google Maps doesn't allow you to save any images.

[RonIpstone]

Hi Norma,



About 18 months ago I submitted a post which suggested that the possible sighting of the murder car in Birstall was quite feasible......................

Hello Jim,

Your figures are based on the odometer reading being recorded after Gregsten had fuelled at Kingsbury Circle, whereas the Court of Appeal, with the benefit of the transcript indicate that the petrol filling to which the odometer reading relates was made before the car was in the corn field at Dorney Reach.

The figures given by the court (para 154) were as follows

Driven by MG before Dorney Reach 57.4mls
Dorney Reach to Deadman's Hill 58(min) -65(max) mls
Deadman's Hill to Avondale Crescent 48.6 (minimum)

If MG had fuelled immediately before the going to Dorney Reach then the minimum distance travelled since the odometer reading was taken must be 116.6 miles leaving a maximum of 115.4 miles unaccounted.

Could the murderer (Hanratty) have got from Deadman's to Birtsall and back again using only his 115.4 mile allowance? The Google Earth figures which you quote I suspect are route directions applicable to 2010 rather than the roads which were available in 1961. Any directions now would entail a substantial detour onto the M1, so I suspect that your figure of 72.3 miles for the Deadman's Hill-Birstall leg is too high.

So let us assume MG fuels immediately before the cornfield in Dorney Reach. He and VS are abducted by Hanratty who forces them to drive to Deadman's Hill a minimum distance of 58 miles; Hanratty then drives to Birstall a distance that the RAC calculate is 61.61 miles going the shortest route; he fills up in Birstall and drives to Avondale Crescent a distance calculated by the same method as 103.11 miles; a grand total of 222.72 miles. This uses up virtually all the 'allowance' of the odometer, leaving only 9.28 miles unexplained.

The scenario is possible but improbable. MG drove for 57.4 miles on 22 August 1961, it is possible that he left it till the last minute before fuelling but if he fuelled more than 9 miles before going to Dorney Reach then the scenario is no longer possible.

Furthermore it requires discipline and skill to follow route directions to achieve the shortest route distances. The murderer (Hanratty) did not appear to possess these qualities nor did he have any route directions or a navigator. It defies belief that Hanratty after killing MG and raping VS drove with arrow-like straightness towards Birstall, put a tiger in his tank and with equal arrow-like directness headed for Redbridge making a small detour to clean the car.

Ron

[Graham]

I went up and down Deadman's Hill earlier today without leaving my home, thanks to the Street View function of Google Maps . Absolutely fascinating. As you go along this road you can see the lay-by on the left-hand side (much different to how it looked in 1961) and a few hundred yards further up on the right you see those cottages.

Have you ever been to Deadman's Hill, James? Even today, 50 years after the event and much altered, the area has a certain melancholy about it. I drive up the A6 from time to time, and always stop for a few minutes in the modern lay-by. A few years ago I went on the day after the anniversary of the crime, and was slightly surprised that no-one had laid any flowers down (or at least I didn't see any).

That whole area's got a strange atmosphere - not only the A6 case but claimed Black Magic rituals at the nearby ruined church.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Ron re

Furthermore it requires discipline and skill to follow route directions to achieve the shortest route distances. The murderer (Hanratty) did not appear to possess these qualities nor did he have any route directions or a navigator. It defies belief that Hanratty after killing MG and raping VS drove with arrow-like straightness towards Birstall, put a tiger in his tank and with equal arrow-like directness headed for Redbridge making a small detour to clean the car

What actually defies belief , in my opinion, is that Hanratty could have carried through all he is alleged to have done that night!
That this rather feckless 25 year old, who had had several attractive young girl friends and sex he bought in Soho ,when he needed it , took a train to a Buckinghamshire cornfield to carry out a murder in order to rape ? That he had the self control and concentration for 5 hours to pull all this off -the murder,the rape, the punctilious use of Alphon"s[?] Vienna Hotel, "black nylon gloves" [see Juliana Galves 12 September statement ]remembering all that time to leave no traces of himself in that murder car-no semen traces or hair or fibres....

At some point or other, he also seems to have nipped back to Vienna Hotel where Alphon lay in deep slumber,let himself into Room 6 and "planted" the "black nylon gloves" there- because an identical pair were seen on top of Alphon"s open suitcase when Juliana Galves opened the door-of number 6 and took him by surprise-[statement of 13th September 1961] .
I ,like yourself, find it difficult to reconcile this six or seven hour concentrated major criminal operation ,alleged to have been carried out by Hanratty, with his known rather limited "management skills".

[burkhilly]

Vic,

now listen - you lay off Norma, OK? She just thanked me for something. Three weeks ago she told me to piss off. We're getting there...

Graham

Graham, I really like the way you try to bring humour to the thread!

[Graham]

Graham, I really like the way you try to bring humour to the thread!

I do my best...

G