a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks James,-would like to return to the statements of Michael Fogarty- Waul at some point - intriguing regarding Alphon .Also the first statement by Valerie about the chosen route of the gun man.Apparently there was close cross questioning by the defence as to why she had initially stated the gunman had asked to be driven to "Slough" but later changed it to him asking to be driven to London. How easy it must be for a person to make slight changes when they repeat evidence in court rooms over again,but nevertheless,it was a point that was addressed by the judge to Valerie at the trial and may be worth being reconsidered .
The roadworks issue being another confusing matter and Kerr"s disappeared notes containing Kerr"s jottings of Valerie"s very first description of the gunman that she gave to him soon after he found her.

[RonIpstone]

Nick Cohen is virulently anti-left so whatsoever Paul Foot wrote or did,Nick Cohen will automatically oppose it----most virulently of all on the subject of Islam ...

Is it not Oliver Kamm putting the boot in and Nick Cohen being quoted writing the encomium?

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,

Hanratty must have been in possession of the gun before he left the Vienna on the morning of 22 August, otherwise how could he have left the spent cartridge cases from the gun?

It was the 11th September when Crocker,the general manager, found the gun cartridge cases .In his statement he said he found them in room 24 when he was doing a general inspection arising from him having to sack Nudds and Snell over a theft.
Yet the Vienna Hotel had been contacted as far back as 27th August in connection with Durrant aka Alphon! Juliana Galves had even been to the police station to give a statement! So they all knew the hotel had been mentioned in connection with the A6 murder hunt -which had been in the media spotlight ever since August 23rd---and the police had been making enquiries into their hotel since August 27th!
So it seems a bit strange doesnt it that nobody had made a "room inspection" then and stumbled upon the empty cartridge cases in room 24 ?
The very first person Crocker connected these cases with was Alphon but actually anybody at all,from outside or inside the hotel could have planted the cartridge cases in Room 24 during the three weeks time lag.

[RonIpstone]

Ron,

maybe the gun was delivered to him at the Vienna before he left. Maybe it was delivered with two chambers fired, so he re-loaded it fully and left the ejected shell-cases on the chair. I get the very strong impression that it was a very new toy indeed.

Graham

I agree. The 22 August 1961 was the day when Hanratty was first left alone in possession of the firearm which he was to use to deadly effect to kill Michael Gregsten and paralyse for life Valerie Storie.

[Natalie Severn]

I agree. The 22 August 1961 was the day when Hanratty was first left alone in possession of the firearm which he was to use to deadly effect to kill Michael Gregsten and paralyse for life Valerie Storie.

So we have been told over and over,ad nauseum, ever since Nudds,bless his cotton socks,told his biggest porky yet by taking Alphon out , replacing him with Hanratty.The Frame up started there !

[RonIpstone]

So they all knew the hotel had been mentioned in connection with the A6 murder hunt -which had been in the media spotlight ever since August 23rd---and the police had been making enquiries into their hotel since August 27th!

The police were inquiring into Alphon not the Vienna Hotel. As the staff at the Vienna were able to alibi Alphon they would have thought that he had nothing to do with the A6 Murder.

So it seems a bit strange doesnt(sic) it that nobody had made a "room inspection" then and stumbled upon the empty cartridge cases in room 24 ?

Not really, having established that Alphon had nothing to do the with case, the staff would not have said, "Well Alphon didn't do it but maybe one of our other guests did it. Let's turn the hotel upside down for clues."

The very first person Crocker connected these cases with was Alphon but actually anybody at all,from outside or inside the hotel could have planted the cartridge cases in Room 24 during the three weeks time lag.

True, but why anyone should do this I cannot imagine. The sensible scenario is that the gunman (Hanratty) forgot to dispose of the incriminating cartridge cases before leaving the hotel on 22 August. That they were not discovered for 3 weeks was attributable to a combination of facts, the poor housekeeping at the Vienna, the dim light in Room 24 and the low occupancy of that room.

[Limehouse]

The police were inquiring into Alphon not the Vienna Hotel. As the staff at the Vienna were able to alibi Alphon they would have thought that he had nothing to do with the A6 Murder.


Not really, having established that Alphon had nothing to do the with case, the staff would not have said, "Well Alphon didn't do it but maybe one of our other guests did it. Let's turn the hotel upside down for clues."



True, but why anyone should do this I cannot imagine. The sensible scenario is that the gunman (Hanratty) forgot to dispose of the incriminating cartridge cases before leaving the hotel on 22 August. That they were not discovered for 3 weeks was attributable to a combination of facts, the poor housekeeping at the Vienna, the dim light in Room 24 and the low occupancy of that room.

Hang on a minute! Maybe the staff didn't search the rooms, but the police had Alphon as a suspect quite early on in the case. It is very odd indeed that they did not thoroughly search both hotels occupied by the suspect immediately before and after the crime. Ok, they already had the murder weapon, but even so, it seems very slack of the police not to have carried out a thorough search.

Ron, a few posts ago you suggested that Hanratty was trying the gun out and may have left the cartridges on the chair by accident then. However, the cartridges were clean of any prints. Are we to suppose he first put on gloves, then loaded the gun gloved up (a bit awkward I would have thought, for someone not used to a gun) then carelessly left the cartridges on the chair?

[RonIpstone]

Hang on a minute! Maybe the staff didn't search the rooms, but the police had Alphon as a suspect quite early on in the case. It is very odd indeed that they did not thoroughly search both hotels occupied by the suspect immediately before and after the crime. Ok, they already had the murder weapon, but even so, it seems very slack of the police not to have carried out a thorough search.

Hi Julie,

I cannot comment on whether the police should have searched the room in which Alphon had stayed and every other room in the Vienna Hotel, other than to say that it would seem a pointless exercise bearing in mind the fact that the cops were satisfied with the alibi.

Ron, a few posts ago you suggested that Hanratty was trying the gun out and may have left the cartridges on the chair by accident then. However, the cartridges were clean of any prints. Are we to suppose he first put on gloves, then loaded the gun gloved up (a bit awkward I would have thought, for someone not used to a gun) then carelessly left the cartridges on the chair?

I am not sure that I did. I wrote that Hanratty must have had the gun before he left the Vienna on the morning of 22 August otherwise he could not have left behind the spent cases.

My understanding is that once Enfield revolver is broken the cartridge cases are automatically extracted from the chambers and can be allowed to free fall out of the gun. I would imagine that in the hands of the inexperienced the cartridge cases are liable to go every which way, and even more so in the hands of the the inexperienced wearing, and being unaccustomed to wearing, gloves.

Hanratty's carelessness was evident throughout his criminal career, that is proved by the number of times he was caught by fingerprint evidence which he had not wiped clean. We know that he was not the sharpest tool in the box. What we do not know is how many spent rounds were in the gun when Hanratty broke it in the Vienna; almost certainly there were two, and possibly as many as six; Hanratty may have had to sort out the spent cartridges from the unused ones, in any event he had to reload the gun, hindered by his newly acquired gloves and then remember to gather and dispose of the spent cartridges. The likelihood is that he forgot about two of the cases left on the bedside chair.

[Graham]

Re: Paul Foot, I agree that it's never pleasant when someone has a go at tearing apart the reputation of a person who can't defend himself, but on the other hand everyone is entitled to his opinion, and Foot himself never shied from saying precisely what he thought about people in whom he'd got a journalistic interest.

I always liked Foot's campaigns in Private Eye, without bothering too much about his personal politics. He was very much under the influence of Tony Cliff with regard to his revolutionary leanings. But for all that, he was one of the good guys, and always worth listening to when he was speaking about a particular case he was working on.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

I cannot comment on whether the police should have searched the room in which Alphon had stayed and every other room in the Vienna Hotel, other than to say that it would seem a pointless exercise bearing in mind the fact that the cops were satisfied with the alibi.

That is an astonishingly thing to say,Ron . So are you saying that the police didnt need to be particularly "careful" or "thorough" in their murder investigations at the Vienna Hotel?
That even though the cartridge cases had no fingerprints on them----[This case should really be called ,"The Case of the Disappearing Fingerprints!"-none on car /in car /on gun/ on cartridge cases-] this should have alerted the police surely, or anybody paying any attention ,that the person who deposited the cartridge cases at any rate , was either a very , very ,careful operator, or someone who had deliberately "planted" them ? But no ,it would appear all that was needed was a swift double take on the pencilled in "24" or "6" that Juliana Galves had referred to and hey presto- the next suspect could be placed "centre stage" , by William Nudds!!! wow!- this man described as being able to dance to any tune during police interviews! And you say nothing more than that was needed to set up a link for "the next man to swing" Hanratty ? I mean it was only mere chance that Alphon,became a suspect at all . If it hadnt been for Mary Perkins the "Miss Marples" of the Alexandra Hotel ,Mr Sims the manager, would never have put the police on the trail to the Vienna Hotel looking for evidence of Alphon ! Well Alphon it wasnt to be- but blow me down -another man who had left the Vienna Hotel "earlier" in the day on August 21st might turn out to be exactly who they wanted!So by following the wrong man they found the A6 killer just by following a multi billion to one chance of Alphon having stayed in the same hotel as the killer .And they tell you miracles dont happen!

[Victor]

That is an astonishingly thing to say,Ron . So are you saying that the police didnt need to be particularly "careful" or "thorough" in their murder investigations at the Vienna Hotel?

Hi Norma,

Why should the Police search the Vienna? At that time the only reason it was connected was because Alphon, who'd been fingered in the Alexandria Court Hotel, had stayed there on the night of the murder. The police rightly contacted the Vienna and got the statement from Galves which effectively gave Alphon an alibi, so there was no reason to search the Vienna rooms, especially not a different room to the one Alphon had used.

Well Alphon it wasnt to be- but blow me down -another man who had left the Vienna Hotel "earlier" in the day on August 21st might turn out to be exactly who they wanted!So by following the wrong man they found the A6 killer just by following a multi billion to one chance of Alphon having stayed in the same hotel as the killer .And they tell you miracles dont happen!

It is an undeniable fact that Hanratty stayed at the Vienna on the Monday night in Room 24, and Alphon stayed there the following night in room 6. Whichever way you look at it it is a coincidence, and one which could have cost Alphon his life, had Valerie not picked out a different man at the ID parade he was put on.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Hang on a minute! Maybe the staff didn't search the rooms, but the police had Alphon as a suspect quite early on in the case. It is very odd indeed that they did not thoroughly search both hotels occupied by the suspect immediately before and after the crime. Ok, they already had the murder weapon, but even so, it seems very slack of the police not to have carried out a thorough search.

Hi Julie,

I don't agree at all. It was the finding of the cartridge cases and Nudds very dodgy 2nd statement that caused Alphon to be named and hunted. Before that the only connection Alphon had to the crime was the report he was acting suspiciously at the Alexandria Court. There were quite a few of these such reports, so are you suggesting that the police should have searched all the hotels where all these reports originated? That would require a massive amount of resources, and is just not feasible.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Why should the Police search the Vienna?


It is an undeniable fact that Hanratty stayed at the Vienna on the Monday night in Room 24, and Alphon stayed there the following night in room 6. Whichever way you look at it it is a coincidence, and one which could have cost Alphon his life, had Valerie not picked out a different man at the ID parade he was put on.

The police should have searched the Vienna because in a murder hunt like that the entire hotel would have been sealed off today and forensics sent in.They had an obligation to search the Vienna hotel properly.


How do you mean its an undeniable fact that Alphon stayed in Room 6? It is "contested" if only because of Nudds 3 different statements about that -even the comment Crocker makes about "immediately linking the cartridge cases with Alphon " points to the need to consider where he did actually stay .

But in point of "fact" what is however, an "undeniable fact" ,is that Valerie identified two different men as her rapist .That is an undeniable fact, that can be proven by rather more "solid" historical evidence.

On the subject of identification,statistics have demonstrated that while 20-40 year olds,correctly identify 48% of the time, their identifications are at their most reliable when they identify someone "immediately".The longer it takes,the less reliable the identification is and it will be remembered that Valerie took twenty minutes to decide.[ Older people identify even less reliably and "correctly' only 24-26% of the time.
BTW,have you never been into another room,in a hotel than the one you were first shown ? It happens everyday in most hotels and B&B"s!
Best
Norma

[Victor]

The police should have searched the Vienna because in a murder hunt like that the entire hotel would have been sealed off today and forensics sent in.They had an obligation to search the Vienna hotel properly.

Hi Norma,

I seriously doubt that. One of a number of men acting strangely, and that was in a different hotel. The manpower needed to search all of these hotels for all the reported men and seal them off would be excessively prohibitive.

How do you mean its an undeniable fact that Alphon stayed in Room 6? It is "contested" if only because of Nudds 3 different statements about that -even the comment Crocker makes about "immediately linking the cartridge cases with Alphon " points to the need to consider where he did actually stay.

The hotel guest book. The only thing that puts Alphon elsewhere is Nudds withdrawn 2nd statement.

On the subject of identification,statistics have demonstrated that while 20-40 year olds,correctly identify 48% of the time, their identifications are at their most reliable when they identify someone "immediately".The longer it takes,the less reliable the identification is and it will be remembered that Valerie took twenty minutes to decide. Older people identify even less reliably and "correctly' only 24-26% of the time.

What is your source for these statistics? And Valerie did not take 20 minutes to decide - see her testimony on the subject - she took 20 minutes to report her decision.

BTW,have you never been into another room,in a hotel than the one you were first shown ? It happens everyday in most hotels and B&B"s!

I can't deny it happens, and yes I have, but there is no uncontested or corroborated evidence for Alphon going near room 24.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

So we have been told over and over,ad nauseum, ever since Nudds,bless his cotton socks,told his biggest porky yet by taking Alphon out , replacing him with Hanratty.The Frame up started there !

Hi Norma,

Why keep repeating only half the story?

Nudds first took Hanratty out, and put Alphon in the frame.
Then he took Alphon back out the frame, and put Hanratty back in.

And you think the 2nd is "his biggest porky yet", but evidently trust the 1st implicitly. So much so, you quote it willy-nilly.

KR,
Vic.