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  • James,

    can you please give some meat to your theory that Gregsten and Storie were being watched and, quote, 'deliberately targeted'? OK, I accept that Gregsten was perhaps fazed by the fact that his family and his employer were not at all pleased that he was (a) living apart from his wife and (b) having an affair with Valerie Storie (and probably other women too), and I accept that he was having treatment for depression and could have been suffering from paranoia, but where is the evidence that he and Storie were being watched? I can't recall that she ever mentioned it.

    I was never comfortable with the suggestion that Gregsten's family were somehow behind the A6 Crime. Gregsten came from what could fairly accurately be described as 'impoverished middle class'. He was well-educated, urbane, good-looking, had a salaried job, but hadn't got two ha'pennies to rub togethere, and neither, it would seem, had his family. If he and Janet were in such dire financial straits that she had to sell his beloved piano, if his family had the wherewithal to hire a gunman to scare him off his bit of naughtiness with Valerie, then surely they could have bunged him a few quid to keep the wolf from the door? Ewer is a non-starter in the dosh stakes, too: he may have run an 'antiques business' or an 'umbrella-repair shop', or both, but no way did he ever have the means to cough up £5000 or whatever it was to a gunman. (And before anyone raises the subject, yes I do know that he once bid a substantial amount of money for something at auction, but he was in fact a proxy bidder acting for someone else). The Gregsten Family being behind the A6 Crime just doesn't hold water.

    I don't believe that Hanratty's motive was sex. It's been said so many times before on this thread that he had a normal sex-life, a mix of legit affairs with girl-friends and regular visits to a knocking-shop, so why should he risk himself holding up a courting couple with a gun purely for sex? No way. I agree with you and Julie on that point. However, I would suggest that Hanratty had taken possession of the gun only that day, that he was away from his normal Northwest London stomping-ground in order to collect the weapon from whoever supplied it, and that he was determined to test his bottle when he had a gun in his hand. A courting-couple was probably precisely what he was looking for. Perhaps he wanted to see for himself the difference a shooter made to an otherwise ordinary petty crook. Why he stayed in that car for 5+ hours only Valerie knows (but she did drop a hint or two).

    One other small point: I've mentioned before (and no-one has ever really addressed it) that Gregsten and Storie went that evening to Hunterscombe Lane first, and then for whatever reason chose on a whim to leave that spot and go to the cornfield at Dorney, only a mile or so away. If Hanratty had been [I]sent[I] to the cornfield, how did he know that they'd be there on that particular evening? Or did he follow them on foot to Hunterscombe Lane and then again to the cornfield? They left the Old Station Inn at about 9.20pm according to Woffinden, so if they stayed at Hunterscombe Lane for say, 10 minutes, before leaving for Marsh Lane and the cornfield, then Hanratty, if he really did follow them, must have been a candidate for the England Olympic Team.


    Graham
    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jimarilyn View Post
      Hi Norma,

      Unfortunately we're all in the dark about his extra-marital affairs. All Janet had to say was that his affair with Valerie Storie wasn't his first. Perhaps there were only two, I can't say.

      regards,
      James
      Woffinden says that Gregsten had an affair with a girl employed as an assitant scientific officer at the Fire Research Laboratory, where he and she worked. This was the evidence of Gregsten's colleague Roy Bigmore. Roy sais that Gregsten had told him that it was only his, Gregsten's, attachment to his son that prevented him from leaving the marital home to set up with this woman. So at least there's evidence for another of Gregsten's affairs, apart from the one he had with Valerie.

      And then he also took out on more than one occasion a female colleague at the Road Research Laboratory, and he would tell her of his problems with his married life and also of his affair with Valerie. However, this doesn't seem like a sexual affair in the accepted sense - he was just looking for someone to talk to.

      Graham
      Last edited by Graham; 07-04-2010, 11:01 PM.
      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

      Comment


      • From Waymarking.com:

        Please refer to Wikipedia for more information as the story is very detailed. To this day the murder is still talked about and many connected to the trial died mysteriously afterwards.
        Like who, apart from Dixie France?

        Graham
        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Graham View Post
          James,

          can you please give some meat to your theory that Gregsten and Storie were being watched and, quote, 'deliberately targeted'? OK, I accept that Gregsten was perhaps fazed by the fact that his family and his employer were not at all pleased that he was (a) living apart from his wife and (b) having an affair with Valerie Storie (and probably other women too), and I accept that he was having treatment for depression and could have been suffering from paranoia, but where is the evidence that he and Storie were being watched? I can't recall that she ever mentioned it.

          I was never comfortable with the suggestion that Gregsten's family were somehow behind the A6 Crime. Gregsten came from what could fairly accurately be described as 'impoverished middle class'. He was well-educated, urbane, good-looking, had a salaried job, but hadn't got two ha'pennies to rub togethere, and neither, it would seem, had his family. If he and Janet were in such dire financial straits that she had to sell his beloved piano, if his family had the wherewithal to hire a gunman to scare him off his bit of naughtiness with Valerie, then surely they could have bunged him a few quid to keep the wolf from the door? Ewer is a non-starter in the dosh stakes, too: he may have run an 'antiques business' or an 'umbrella-repair shop', or both, but no way did he ever have the means to cough up £5000 or whatever it was to a gunman. (And before anyone raises the subject, yes I do know that he once bid a substantial amount of money for something at auction, but he was in fact a proxy bidder acting for someone else). The Gregsten Family being behind the A6 Crime just doesn't hold water.

          I don't believe that Hanratty's motive was sex. It's been said so many times before on this thread that he had a normal sex-life, a mix of legit affairs with girl-friends and regular visits to a knocking-shop, so why should he risk himself holding up a courting couple with a gun purely for sex? No way. I agree with you and Julie on that point. However, I would suggest that Hanratty had taken possession of the gun only that day, that he was away from his normal Northwest London stomping-ground in order to collect the weapon from whoever supplied it, and that he was determined to test his bottle when he had a gun in his hand. A courting-couple was probably precisely what he was looking for. Perhaps he wanted to see for himself the difference a shooter made to an otherwise ordinary petty crook. Why he stayed in that car for 5+ hours only Valerie knows (but she did drop a hint or two).

          One other small point: I've mentioned before (and no-one has ever really addressed it) that Gregsten and Storie went that evening to Hunterscombe Lane first, and then for whatever reason chose on a whim to leave that spot and go to the cornfield at Dorney, only a mile or so away. If Hanratty had been [I]sent[I] to the cornfield, how did he know that they'd be there on that particular evening? Or did he follow them on foot to Hunterscombe Lane and then again to the cornfield? They left the Old Station Inn at about 9.20pm according to Woffinden, so if they stayed at Hunterscombe Lane for say, 10 minutes, before leaving for Marsh Lane and the cornfield, then Hanratty, if he really did follow them, must have been a candidate for the England Olympic Team.


          Graham
          Hi Graham,

          I agree, the Gregsten's were poor (although I don't really understand why they should have been as civil servants couldn't have been that badly paid compared to many others at that time) and it is unlikely that the attack was a family plot but i can't shake off the idea that it was not a random attack either.

          Re their movements that night, we already have a testimony from a colleague of Valerie stating that after taking her on a cinema visit, they stopped at Hunterscombe Lane and then on Dorney Common and Valerie told him that she and Gregsten often stopped there so it seems that the Hunterscombe Lane and Dorney area stop-off was a regularish routine for VS and MG. However, I agree it would be difficult for someone to exactly track their movements if that someone was on foot....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Graham View Post
            However, I would suggest that Hanratty had taken possession of the gun only that day, that he was away from his normal Northwest London stomping-ground in order to collect the weapon from whoever supplied it, and that he was determined to test his bottle when he had a gun in his hand.
            Graham,

            Hanratty must have been in possession of the gun before he left the Vienna on the morning of 22 August, otherwise how could he have left the spent cartridge cases from the gun? He was either given the gun at the Vienna, or more likely he had possession of it before checking in there on 21 August.

            My guess is that Hanratty spent the day of 22 August trying to pluck up the necessary courage to use the gun on the more traditional targets of the 'stick up' man, banks, post offices, jewellers etc; his bottle failed him throughout the day and the target which presented itself was the Moggie Minor parked in the cornfield. Who knows what went through his mind? That he could gain confidence in his use of the gun as a threat, away from the crowded post offices and banks, is possible.

            The crime was irrational and there is no way of rationally attributing motives or reasons to Hanratty's actions on that night.

            Ron

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RonIpstone View Post
              Graham,

              Hanratty must have been in possession of the gun before he left the Vienna on the morning of 22 August, otherwise how could he have left the spent cartridge cases from the gun? He was either given the gun at the Vienna, or more likely he had possession of it before checking in there on 21 August.

              My guess is that Hanratty spent the day of 22 August trying to pluck up the necessary courage to use the gun on the more traditional targets of the 'stick up' man, banks, post offices, jewellers etc; his bottle failed him throughout the day and the target which presented itself was the Moggie Minor parked in the cornfield. Who knows what went through his mind? That he could gain confidence in his use of the gun as a threat, away from the crowded post offices and banks, is possible.

              The crime was irrational and there is no way of rationally attributing motives or reasons to Hanratty's actions on that night.

              Ron
              Ron,

              maybe the gun was delivered to him at the Vienna before he left. Maybe it was delivered with two chambers fired, so he re-loaded it fully and left the ejected shell-cases on the chair. I get the very strong impression that it was a very new toy indeed.

              Graham
              Last edited by Graham; 07-04-2010, 11:49 PM.
              We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

              Comment


              • Paul Foot

                A long read, but it offers some insight into the character and politics of Paul Foot.

                Graham

                We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                Comment


                • Nick Cohen is virulently anti-left so whatsoever Paul Foot wrote or did,Nick Cohen will automatically oppose it----most virulently of all on the subject of Islam ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                    Nick Cohen is virulently anti-left so whatsoever Paul Foot wrote or did,Nick Cohen will automatically oppose it----most virulently of all on the subject of Islam ...
                    I couldn't give a monkey's, it's still an interesting read.

                    Graham
                    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jimarilyn View Post
                      Exactly, Julie. A very strange place indeed.
                      A very strange place-----but not far from the pub MG and VS had left that night and where Alphon was seen from time to time by the landlady, Mary Lanz.
                      I have also become aware that police found out very soon after the murder that Alphon knew the Slough area and was actually a regular attender of the Greyhound track in Slough ,Buckinghamshire.
                      Last edited by Natalie Severn; 07-05-2010, 12:30 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                        From Waymarking.com:



                        Like who, apart from Dixie France?

                        Graham
                        Florence Snell - 1963.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                          Florence Snell - 1963.
                          Right, we got Dixie France and we got Florence Snell (who seemed on her last legs anyway). So two people out of the dozens connected with the crime have died? Does that make 'many died mysteriously?'. Don't think so. Keep trying.

                          Graham
                          We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                            A very strange place-----but not far from the pub MG and VS had left that night and where Alphon was seen from time to time by the landlady, Mary Lanz.
                            I have also become aware that police found out very soon after the murder that Alphon knew the Slough area and was actually a regular attender of the Greyhound track in Slough ,Buckinghamshire.
                            Alphon never made any secret that he was a regular attender at the greyhounds at Slough - betting on the growlers was part of how he made his living. Doubtless he went to White City and other tracks, too.

                            Mary Lanz said she had seen Gregsten and Valerie many times at the Old Station Inn. In her statement to the police she said she had seen Alphon before, but couldn't remember when. Nothing about 'from time to time'. She just knew, quote, 'that she had seen him before'. Proves nothing.

                            Graham
                            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                              I have also become aware that police found out very soon after the murder that Alphon knew the Slough area and was actually a regular attender of the Greyhound track in Slough ,Buckinghamshire.
                              Alphon was indeed a regular visitor to Slough Greyhound Stadium, Norma. A journey of more than 20 miles from Paddington Station. Wouldn't be surprised if he bumped into a certain Michael Fogarty-Waul at this dog-track. Chances are that he popped into a nearby pub/s afterwards for a pint of Guiness. I get the strong impression that he was a keen train/tube traveller. Even 30 years later there is filmed footage of him pacing back and forth on a London railway station platform.

                              Alphon also attended the Bedford Trial in early 1962. I would guess he travelled there and back by train, unless he was driven there in a car by friends. A round journey of over 100 miles. Of course he had plenty of money at that time to afford such things. Unlike the situation of a few months earlier when he was sponging off his old mum and kipping in cheap hotels or sleeping rough under Southend Pier.

                              regards,
                              James
                              Last edited by jimarilyn; 07-05-2010, 01:20 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                                A long read, but it offers some insight into the character and politics of Paul Foot.

                                Graham

                                http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2...oots_lega.html
                                He strikes me as a bit of a cad to put the boot into a chap who has just died.

                                I blame the second-rate public school that Footie attended for his muddle-headed views. He might have been better advised by the Salopian careers advisor to pursue a career in comedy where many Old Salopians were to find fame and fortune, e.g Nick Hancock, Michael Heseltine, Richard Ingrams and Willie Rushton to name but a few.

                                It would be unfair to argue that Foot's nutty views on the DNA aspect of the Hanratty case should be used to discredit his mad political views and vice versa. So I shall not.

                                Comment

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