a6 murder

[jimarilyn]

Your statement here is very significant.What pressure to this effect was coming at him and from whom? From all that I have read too, Mike Gregsten expected to die.But why? Was somebody threatening him?

Hi Norma,

Sorry for the delay in replying to your post ( I was on holiday at the time ). For personal reasons I had decided not to post on this thread again. Your very impressive observations on the A6 case have helped me to change my mind.

For several years prior to his murder Mike Gregsten had been prone to bouts of depression and severe headaches, and his mental health was giving great cause for concern. He suffered from a condition known as "Depersonalization Syndrome" and at one time remarked to a specialist that he 'had a general feeling that he ought to be dead'. Who knows, perhaps this condition contributed in some way to erratic behaviour, leading to him embarking on several extra-marital affairs. Perhaps his deep-rooted feelings of estrangement and isolation caused him to act like a single man and neglect his responsiblities as a husband and father. His philandering tendencies must have deeply hurt his very attractive wife even if, on the surface, she tried to make little of it and put on a brave face. Extra-marital affairs can often have serious repercussions.

The very admirable Paul Foot wrote in his highly impressive book that Janet was 'irritated and depressed' by Mike's adulterous affair with Valerie Storie. He also stated that Janet 'and her family did everything in their power to discourage the relationship'. This would strongly suggest that her sister and brother-in-law (namely Valerie and William Ewer) were involved and doing their part in trying to put an end to the relationship. Who knows, perhaps the strongly built Ewer even leaned on and threatened Mike physically. Mike had been Ewer's brother-in-law for 10 years and there must have been numerous occasions during that decade when the two brothers-in-law were alone together. Oh to have been a fly on the wall during those
encounters. The opportunistic Ewer even took a leaf out of Mike's book and embarked on a seven or eight year affair with Mike's widow in the wake of Mike's death, deserting his own wife in the process. Maybe Ewer had been secretly lusting after his very attractive sister-in-law for a long time. If so, Mike's convenient murder certainly opened up new possibilities to pursue the very vulnerable and desirable Janet.

Valerie Storie wrote in June 1962 that she and Mike were very close and that she could sense every one of his moods. When the gunman knocked on the window of that Morris Minor at Dorney Reach she sensed that Mike 'was worried, almost frightened'. She 'felt as if someone had exploded a bomb.' Mike must have imparted that fear to her during the five to six hours that they were trapped in the car. Did he think his number was up and that his philandering ways had caught up with him ? Did Mike recognise the gunman from somewhere ? Is that why the gunman disguised himself with a triangular shaped cloth/handkerchief draped over his mouth and nose ?

That general feeling that Mike had had a few years earlier that 'he ought to be dead' seemed to be fulfilling itself. Did Mike think he was a 'dead man' when that knock came on the driver's window ? One thing's for sure.... he ended up dead on 'Deadman's Hill'.

regards,
James


PS. Shame on those posters who ganged up and attacked you so unjustifiably. You obviously touched a raw nerve, Norma.

[Limehouse]

A very welcome return to you Jim. Lots to think about there. Once again, whether Hanratty was guilty opr innocent, I cannot help but doubt greatly that this was a random attack.

Julie

[john]

I write this as a supporter that he did not do it
HOWEVER
I am very tired of reading about the DNA and the possible different tests.
Face up all of you.
Either
It is Hanratty's DNA without shadow of doubt on the knickers if the scientist did produce his DNA on the sample-ie it was there in the first place
but the knickers became contaminated
The scientist fiddled the test results-possible in the real world
It does not exist at all and the 'establishment' make it up. That could not happen surely? But to go on and on about this test v test is blinding all to the realities

To go on about LCN/ZZY/ABC tests is irrelevant. Even the ABC Testers by the posts concede that there is DNA on the knickers. So if it not Hanratty's due to inadequate tests procedures/analysis then whose can it be? Speculation about other lovers sperm-excluding Gregsten is bog wash. Sye shagged Gregsten in the Morris. She lied about it. But that doesnot justify murder or now any ot ht ewilder theories now happening on this forum


The regurgated theories about Ewer v Gregsten v Janet v Alphon are just utter speculation and no evidence at all and many are forgetting that hard evidence is needed to show anything pro or anti. So Ewer shagged Janet therefore qd he arranged the murder. Madness.

I believe that the arrival of Jean Justice and Alphon has actually for fifty years screwed up the real reasons for the murder with their love theories and Justice's strange theories for society.

The case is absolutely full of liars.
Hanratty lied/all 3 France's lied/Langdale lied/Jones lied/Trower/Skillett.Hogan/Trower lied/Anderson lied/ Ewer and Janet Gregsten lied/McNally lied/Galves lied/Nudds lied/Acott and Oxford lied/ Barron lied/ DC Williams lied/Storie lied/-small things in some of the cases but none the less they lied/ john Kerr -either he was right or he lied-Swanwick lied (sorry but barristers don't do they.....oh yeah!) without long explantation about each it can easily be shown they all lied. Dr Rennie either lied about Clark's appearance or Storie did and so on and so on/Snell lied
There are very few witnesses even of seemingly insignificant facts in the case that told the truth when in the trial box. Eatwell lied/

It begs the question who else lied and why and who really can be trusted in this case

Another interesting fact which may be relevant is that on the FOI act I have discovered that MI5 had a file on Alphon. Yes I know you will say they have a file on us all. Do not flatter ourselves. They only keep files open on relevant people. So why a file.It canot be just due to madness.

[Limehouse]

Hello John,

Good post in many respects.

Re Kerr - much has been made about his testimony being unreliable because he thought Valerie's name was Mary. I would ask anyone who doubts Kerr to think about the following:

Valerie was shot at approximately 3.30am. She was discovered at about 6.30am. She must have bled internally and externally. She must have been very weak. Kerr was sensible enough to call for help and then try to get some details about the attack and record them. He asks her name. She mumbles 'Valerie' but due to her weakened state, she blurrs the syllables and it sounds like Mary - which was a more common name at the time.

Getting the name wrong does not add up to lying does it? What reason would he have for lying? Did he lie about the record he made on the back of the census form? Why would he do so?

Isn't it more likely that the police fibbede, either because one of them had mislaid the form or because the descrition written down did not correspond with their eventual suspect.

Nobody has ever suggested that Valerie having a sexual relationship with Gregsten justified what happened to them. However, many posters have asked Hanratty doubters to explain how the non-Gregsten semen got onto the knickers and a possibility has been explored.

John, I would be interested to hear your theory on who committed the murder and why, if you do not believe it was Hanratty.

Julie

[Victor]

Re Kerr - much has been made about his testimony being unreliable because he thought Valerie's name was Mary. I would ask anyone who doubts Kerr to think about the following:

Valerie was shot at approximately 3.30am. She was discovered at about 6.30am. She must have bled internally and externally. She must have been very weak. Kerr was sensible enough to call for help and then try to get some details about the attack and record them. He asks her name. She mumbles 'Valerie' but due to her weakened state, she blurrs the syllables and it sounds like Mary - which was a more common name at the time.

Hi Julie,

That is a very good suggestion, however, if he mis-heard that part then it's equally possible that he mis-heard other parts of her description also. Furthermore I would imagine that Kerr's emotional state at discovering the severly injured Valerie and corpse would have also contributed.

Getting the name wrong does not add up to lying does it? What reason would he have for lying? Did he lie about the record he made on the back of the census form? Why would he do so?

There is no reason for him to lie, but there are many reasons for him to be mistaken. I do doubt his reliability, I do not doubt his honesty.

Isn't it more likely that the police fibbede, either because one of them had mislaid the form or because the descrition written down did not correspond with their eventual suspect.

No.

Nobody has ever suggested that Valerie having a sexual relationship with Gregsten justified what happened to them. However, many posters have asked Hanratty doubters to explain how the non-Gregsten semen got onto the knickers and a possibility has been explored.

I don't have my books with me here so I can't check, however, Woffinden gives an account of Gregsten's and Storie's movements during the day. I think Gregsten was decorating\preparing a new flat, and then collected Valerie from work before taking her to her parents and then on to the Old Station Inn. This means that the opportunity for Valerie to have an additional sexual partner to account for the blood type-O semen is non-existant. It must have come from her rapist.

There are a number of further comments I would make:-
The Krays have previously been mentioned on this thread, noteable Reg making remarks about "his brother Ron".
Ronald Castree is in prison because the case was reinvestigated and the semen on her clothing was matched to him. Stefan Kiszko should never have been sent to prison - in his case the withheld evidence did materially affect the outcome, and it is a disgrace.
Your quotes about Valerie's other liaison's do not specifically mention the cornfield in question, rather they indicate a number of alternative locations that the couple used making it even more unlikely anyone could pinpoint where they would be that night.

Finally...

As Alphon had been in room 24 after Hanratty had been there ie he was allocated room 24 on the 22nd August "after" Hanratty had left it has always seemed to me that the gun cartridge cases found there on the 11th September ,that played such an important role in Hanratty"s conviction,could have been left there by Alphon who had been in the room after Hanratty ---even though he later went down and demanded another room saying he didnt like Room 24.

Norma, please tell me who are the ONLY witnesses to put Alphon in room 24?

Here's a hint...

long term gangsters from the London Underworld [...] Nudds

No wonder the truth fled from this bogus set up rather rapidly especially on copping sight of [...] gangster Nudds and Mrs Snell his missus,

I see we readily believe the thoroughly corrupt witnesses Nudds and Langland , while we cast gross aspersions on the testimony of John Kerr-----but the muddled recollections are somehow sacrosanct! Nudds could not even get his testimony straight for goodness sake about who stayed where, when ,in the Vienna Hotel -Nudds - fresh from a nine year prison term, for crying out loud! Oh yes you believe him ok---ofcourse-!So no,against such a backdrop of deceit,betrayal,lies and gangster"s evidence

Nudds criminal career has to be read to be believed !Since his first offence in 1917 up until three days before he got his job in the "Vienna Hotel" he was barely out of jail-he had been in jail nine years when he was last released.His longest period out of jail was twelve months.

A lot of statements by big time gangsters went forward to comprise the evidence for the prosecution.The ex convict Nudds for example ,was a thoroughly disgusting seasoned jailbird,just out of a nine year stint in the nick where he had turned prison informer.

I was pretty stunned by the criminal CV"s of some of the main witnesses -in particular that of ex Parkhurst inmate "Nudds"[Glickberg], who in 1958 was dubbed "the most hated man in Britain" by the Empire News with specific reference to his long record as a prison grass.Looking more closely at this and his notorious criminal record, he must rank as one of the most corrupt witnesses ever to have graced the Old Bailey!

I can't believe that you are slagging Nudds off left, right and centre and then stating uncorroborated parts of his evidence as fact.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Vic,
point taken -fact is Hanratty was not in that room---or anywhere near it----when Alphon arrived on the 24th.So who was last in the Vienna Hotel? Hanratty or Alphon?So who is most likely to have placed the empty cartridge cases there?
Cheers
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi James!
Thankyou for your kind words and boy am I delighted to see you back here!
I agree about the depression and Gregsten ---but who could have had him in fear of his life? and why ?
Will get back to you on this,
Cheers
Norma

[caz]

...if the rapist left no semen because he did not ejaculate, or if his semen missed the knicker portion, but the vicitm had had other sexual partners that day, then the presence of a man other than the rapist would be explained. If the knicker fragment was then contaminated by the defendent's DNA, well - we might have an answer to the puzzle.

What 'puzzle'?? You may not like the solution, Limehouse, but what gives you the right to presume there isn't one, so you can come out with some ludicrously convoluted 'solution' of your own, to make the convicted man innocent, that frankly borders on the libellous?

Why not go the whole hog and accuse the strumpet of making love to the gunman straight after he had shot and killed her previous lover, to explain why she protected him later by fingering Hanratty instead?

That would also be an answer to your 'puzzle', wouldn't it? I mean, how low are you prepared to go here? I believe Valerie is still alive, although sadly she hasn't been kicking since 1961.

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

That would also be an answer to your 'puzzle', wouldn't it? I mean, how low are you prepared to go here? I believe Valerie is still alive, although sadly she hasn't been kicking since 1961

Indeed she is still alive, Caz, and I think at least a couple of posters to this thread might care to bear that fact in mind.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Nudds--a main prosecution witness........

Norma, please tell me who are the ONLY witnesses to put Alphon in room 24?

Got a problem Vic ? Many thanks all your hard work reposting my stuff on Nudds!
Yes-so what we have on the morning of August 22nd 1961 is a situation where Nudds and his Mrs Snell [ partner in ]say that Hanratty had vacated Room 24 .Apparently it could have been where Hanratty had been doing "target practice" .We suspect this because he had never owned a gun before and like a fool he left two empty cartridge cases there ,on top of a chair in the alcove![They would not be discovered though for 21 days] ....
Meanwhile,Durrant AKA Alphon arrived in the same room 24 that Hanratty had just vacated---well---three hours after Hanratty had vacated it and where the two empty gun cartridge cases were lying on the chair.Whether or not Alphon noticed them is up for grabs but they would not be found there by anyone at all until 20 days later ---- well after Alphon had been released from being questioned by police about whether he was the A6 murderer!

Nudds: [/B] I saw Durrant [aka Alphon] arrive at 1.00 pm.[22nd of August].......I allocated him Room 24, the key of which he had already been given,..I noticed that Durrant[Alphon] had a smart appearance,something like a commercial traveller,wore neat clothes and a clean white shirt,was clean shaven and had hair neatly smoothes down with grease ....I remember he was in a bit of a flurry....he went out and told me he wouldnt be back until late he said,"I may be very late.Don"t wait up for me."

Swanwick for the prosecution was happy ,like yourself Vic, to accept the "final" statement of the three ,from this pathological liar ,Nudds, since by then ,despite Nudds having gone through many a twist and turn,he was willing to say what they wanted him to say in that court room .to implicate Hanratty.And ,ofcourse, Nudds ,like the reliable prison informer he was ,eventually did say what was needed to ensure Hanratty would swing. Langdale too,and France.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi John,
Good to see your post.I think Alphon gets too easily dismissed myself.
When I was in Rhyl I came across a local history book in the library.It was about Ronald True a man who had had a very priveleged upbringing by wealthy loving parents and who had developed the same sort of strong affectionate bond with his mother that Alphon had with his mother who he sponged off.By the time he was in his twenties True was totally dependent on his mother,as was Alphon clearly, and was said,like Alphon, to be a "born wastrel,gambling on this and that and leading the life of a bum,incapable of any kind of work". I thought how this description suited Alphon too.Well Ronald True committed the most horrific murder on a young woman for no apparent reason.He was sent to Broadmoor as a result ---for the rest of his life.

A picture of Alphon and Mum

[Natalie Severn]

Why not go the whole hog and accuse the strumpet of making love to the gunman straight after he had shot and killed her previous lover, to explain why she protected him later by fingering Hanratty instead?

That would also be an answer to your 'puzzle', wouldn't it? I mean, how low are you prepared to go here?

Why are you "embellishing" Julie"s original statement on the matter, Caz?Julie explained her reason for suggesting this possibility, based on the statements made by another of Valerie"s friends,another of the Road Research Laboratory office, who said he used to go sometimes to the cinema with her and ,once, afterwards going to Dorney Common ,where she had told him Gregsten and she usually stopped.
A single young woman,being strung along by a married man for four years might well have been getting rather fed up with him having his cake and eat it,and to have at the very least been having thoughts of getting a new man.
I dont see why not or that there would have been anything wrong with a twenty two year old single person deciding ,"what"s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".Its not how I see it myself really I must admit, but it isnt beyond the realms of possibility and its unreasonable for it to have brought about such vicious attacks on a poster of much integrity and commitment to the truth.
Best
Norma

[Victor]

Got a problem Vic ?

Hi Norma,

Yes I have a problem finding any corroborating evidence for Alphon ever going into room 24. The Vienna book says Alphon was in room 6, and the only person to occupy room 24 since Hanratty the night before the murder until the cartridge cases were found was an Indian gentleman.

Apparently it could have been where Hanratty had been doing "target practice" .We suspect this because he had never owned a gun before and like a fool he left two empty cartridge cases there ,on top of a chair in the alcove!

Someone left the cartridge cases from the murder weapon there, "target practice" was Swanwick's suggestion but not necessarily the correct suggestion, but he was obliged to suggest something.

Meanwhile,Durrant AKA Alphon arrived in the same room 24 that Hanratty had just vacated---well---three hours after Hanratty had vacated it and where the two empty gun cartridge cases were lying on the chair.

No he didn't, Alphon (aka Durrant) arrived in Room 6, hours after Hanratty (aka Ryan) left room 24. I want you to provide evidence for your repeated assertion that Alphon went anywhere near room 24 in the basement, because the only connection is your friend Nudds (and Snell), who I reposted all your compliments about.

Whether or not Alphon noticed them is up for grabs but they would not be found there by anyone at all until 20 days later ---- well after Alphon had been released from being questioned by police about whether he was the A6 murderer!

It is not "up for grabs", how could he have noticed them when he never went into that room. There's no evidence he even went down to the basement.

Nudds: I saw Durrant [aka Alphon] arrive at 1.00 pm.[22nd of August].......

That's why I reposted all your comments about him, your relying on his (and Snell's) evidence again. Do you want us to ignore his evidence or rely on it?

Swanwick for the prosecution was happy ,like yourself Vic, to accept the "final" statement of the three ,from this pathological liar ,Nudds, since by then ,despite Nudds having gone through many a twist and turn,he was willing to say what they wanted him to say in that court room .to implicate Hanratty.And ,ofcourse, Nudds ,like the reliable prison informer he was ,eventually did say what was needed to ensure Hanratty would swing. Langdale too,and France.

I'm happy to accept that of the 3 statements, the 3rd and 1st which are on the whole consistent, they are more likely to be accurate than the 2nd where he had colluded with Snell. Remember that for the 3rd statement they were questioned seperately with no opportunity to get their stories straight.

In any case, the evidence of Nudds, Snell, and Langdale too were minor parts of the prosecution case. The main plank of the case was Valerie's evidence.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I agree about the depression and Gregsten ---but who could have had him in fear of his life? and why ?

Hi Norma,

That's a hard question, what could make a man with a history of depression, depressed about his life?

Marco Pirroni gave a great quote in the Adam Ant documentary, it went something along the lines of:-
The thing about depression as an affliction is that there is no reason for a sufferer to be depressed, they just are, that is the definition of the condition.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic

Yes I have a problem finding any corroborating evidence for Alphon ever going into room 24. The Vienna book says Alphon was in room 6, and the only person to occupy room 24 since Hanratty the night before the murder until the cartridge cases were found was an Indian gentleman.

from Woffinden," The Final Verdict " pages 66/67/68 Chapter six -the following ,with minor abbreviations , forms the bulk of Nudds"s important second statement, given to Acott and Oxford. Nudds and his "wife " Mrs.Snell were brought into Scotland Yard to make it .


It began thus:
Nudds: "Since I made my statement to you on Sept.15 th,I realise what I told you was wrong. I was confused and made an honest mistake about the booking and arrival of the man named Durrant [Alphon] that I then told you about.I am now perfectly clear about everything that happened at the Vienna Hotel with regards to Durrant.
At about 11 am on Tuesday 22nd August,my wife told me she had just received a booking from a man who gave the name Durrant [this being Alphon] and asked for a room for one night.I made an entry in the Hotel Diary,"Mr Durrant one night".I saw Durrant arrive at one pm.My wife and I were together at the reception desk.We had no single or small rooms to offer him.We never turn a guest away if it is at all possible to accomodate him.In accordance with general practice I allocated him Room 24,which is a large room..... Durrant left his case in Room 24. Durrant told me he was going out and .....wouldnt be back until late .............when we had finished business [at the desk] Durrant left us to go to his room -Room 24 "---his statement continues
---there is a lot more about rearrangement of rooms in Durrant"s[Alphon"s] absence -apparently while Durrant/Alphon was out Mr Bell rang to say the single room was not needed so Durrant was given Room 6. Durrant was left a note explaining the "re-arrangement" .When however, Durrant did not appear for breakfast Nudds says he told his wife to go and see if he was in his room.His wife knocked on his[Alphon"s] door at about 10 am and as there was no answer opened the door only to find him and found him dishevelled and agitated and pulling on trousers........

Statement of William Nudds 21 September 1961.

No matter Vic which of his three different statements that you choose to accept as the truth ---the fact remains he made this second statement at Scotland Yard in the presence of Acott and Oxford
You will have to excuse me Vic, I need to do other things just now but will return "to answer your other questions" later!
Cheers
Norma