a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Victor or sharing your own experience and I agree it is ofcourse sometimes for the best for all parties .
However I would suggest its not for a person outside that unhappy union to go ahead and attempt to steal another woman"s husband ,especially when the couple had tried to resolve their difficulties and both husband and wife hadexpressed a strong aversion to divorce.Ok it may have helped Mike Gregsten in the sense of having instant gratification with a young workmate - enjoying extra marital sex with Valerie --and it may not have bothered Valerie particularly that she was helping to put the final seal on the Gregsten"s marriage .But it has surely to be admitted that she was not acting in the most considerate way towards her married rival who had two young children to think about.
Best Wishes
Norma

[CliveEnglish]

See page 324 of Woffinden.

Originally Posted by Victor
Do you mean the bit that starts "He [Justice] still hoped to provoke him [Alphon] into a more obvious indiscretion and as such tried to put him under emotional duress."? That sounds like Justice started the fight to me.

Good evening Victor
That quote relates to getting Alphon to confess. As the previous sentence in Woffiden says "Justice appreciated as keenly as Alphon the illusory value of the confession notes."

This was also a month or so before Alphons assualt on Mrs Hanratty and Jean Justice.

So Justice did not provoke Alphon the day Alphon assualted Justice and Mrs Hanratty at all.
Clive

[Victor]

"repressed homosexuality" is often found in schizophrenia,but it really does not mean the person is actually gay-or would be wanting to "act out" -not at all.

Hi Norma,

I do not understand this quote, someone who represses their homosexuality is gay, but represses it. I do not have the Justice books and have never read them. Living in Brighton I have a deep knowledge of the homosexual community, I had Sunday lunch and watched the England Germany match in a predominantly lesbian pub this afternoon, and I would consider it to be my "local" [The PV @ The Jury's Out on Edward Street for those interested - it's a fabulous pub]

If you re-read what Jean Justice , who was gay, wrote about his attempt at an amorous encounter with Alphon , you will see that Alphon was uncomfortable about Jean"s happy open acceptance of his homosexuality and their attempt at consumation was a bit of a flop to say the least.

Thankfully, in recent years people's guilt concerning their homosexuality is much diminished, but there are still many suicides every year amongst young gay people (eg., Justin Fashanu), and there are flamboyantly effeminate men in the media since Quentin Crisp, including Boy Goeorge, Jimmy Somerville, Matt Lucas and Peter Tatchell and also those who hide their sexuality such as George Michael. In the 60s there were many men who were homosexual and unable to admit it - Alan Bennett springs to mind - who seems to share a contempt for their own sexuality.

KR,
Vic.

[CliveEnglish]

Alan Bennett springs to mind - who seems to share a contempt for their own sexuality.

Evening Victor
You obviously have not seen the "History Boys" then!
Clive

[Victor]

A According to Woffinden and the Metropolitan Police it may not have been so straightforward a choice for the fence Mrs Anderson. Despite denials of buying stolen goods from Hanratty she was raided by the police on the 20th October and over 50 items from recent burglaries (not all supplied by Hanratty) were removed. This was a month before the arraignment and would have weighed heavy on the mind of a middle aged widow facing a fair old time in Holloway Prison.
I tend to think that that was more of a motive to play ball and turn Queens evidence!

Hi Clive,

50 suspected to be stolen items were removed. And her evidence probably stopped any prosecution, but even so she may have been found innocent. And even so that does not mean the ecidence she gave is inaccurate. Suspicous yes, but wrong not necessarily.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Valerie Storie"s first construction of her killer"s face

Valerie"s first description of the gunman was not initially consistent.Valerie sat down and helped to construct the first identikit picture of the gunman---that is the picture on the left.It bears a surpising similarity to Alphon-feature by feature and looks nothing like Hanratty.Her first verbal description was given to the undergraduate from Oxford University,who had first found her, Mr John Kerr.According to Mr Kerr, Valerie told him the gunman had"staring eyes and light,fairish hair.He noted this description down along with other notes on the back of his traffic census forms .The forms were handed over to a policemen who had come on the scene and who demanded that he give them him ,which he did.However after Kerr had given his evidence which was close to the trial opening at Ampthill ,the magistrates asked if the form could be produced----there wasa pause and a flurry and the magistrates told the court they were not available.Eventually some of the traffic forms were found with another person"s writing on them but no sign of the description. The defence ,we are told , gasped in astonishment.
Anyway about an hour after talking to Mr Kerr Valerie made another statement to Chief Inspector Whiffen and Woman Inspector Arnett , of the Bedfordshire Police.No record exists outside the Home Office of that statement all we have is the description released to all newspapers and to televisionthat the killer was aged about 30.5ft 6 ins of medium build,wearinmg a dark suit. He has dark hair, pale face and deep set brown eyes Evening News August 23rd; all national and provincial newspapers August 24th .
I will come back to the discepancies but here I think its worth mentioning that it was on the basis of the lost initial description in court that day, that set of one of the chief investigators into this case Mr Jean Justice.He smelt something wasnt right from the start and devoted the rest of his life to trying to fathom the truth.In the end he was convinced the gunman was Alphon all along as he confessed several times and he was also convinced that it was the extra-ordinary legal and official Home Office difficulties presented by having yet another murder trial---on top of one that had convicted one man and executed him to his death that prevented Alphon being tried for the case.Alphon insisted he had never intended to kill anyone---that the whole thing had gone completely pear shaped and he responded to the sudden duffle bag incident with fear.

[Natalie Severn]

Apolgies---my computer is still playing up.Here are the identikit pictures I refer to above.Also a picture of Alphon to compare .

[CliveEnglish]

Hi Clive,

50 suspected to be stolen items were removed. And her evidence probably stopped any prosecution, but even so she may have been found innocent. And even so that does not mean the ecidence she gave is inaccurate. Suspicous yes, but wrong not necessarily.

KR,
Vic.

Victor
The evidence that Anderson gave completely contradicted that of the prosecutions case so was to all intents and purposes worthless but she was still called. Her evidence of the scratches on Hanratty's face being the prima facie example. No one else saw the scratches after the murder. So it was total B*ll*cks.
I'm in total agreement with Norma. You are just making this up as you go along Victor. As far as I can see none of what you have posted so far as I've been on here is true. I am struggling to keep up with the number of errors that you have made. Are you a Troll by the way?
Clive

[Victor]

I haven't read the appeal paper very closely; yet the following paragraph does not make much sense.

Hi Clive,

I apologise if this sounds condescending but it's all here -> http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/1141.html
So there's really no excuse.

The only point that the appeal court makes which is truly relevant to the identification of the A6 murderer by way of the DNA is that Hanratty's DNA has been found on Valerie Stories knickers.

Not at all, I was quoting the summary of the judgment. There are a number of facts in the complete text which are only summarised in the conclusion.

No other "number of alleged coincidences" can be shown to be proof of anything at all, let alone "overwhelming proof of the safety of the conviction from an evidential perspective".

It is the absolute confirmation of the DNA result that allows the other coincidences to be demonstrably not coincidence, but proof.

The DNA cannot show that either of Skillet or Trowers identification is proof that the driver of the car they saw was Hanratty, when or where it was later found parked.

True, the DNA is corroboration that Skillet and Trower's identifications are more likely to be genuine sightings of Hanratty in the murder car.

The DNA cannot prove that the slugs found in room 24 of the Vienna Hotel were left there by anyone at all.

The slugs in the Vienna were from the murder weapon, and were left there by someone, and as the DNA shows Hanratty was the rapist, and we know he occupied room 24 on the Monday night, it clearly demonstrates Hanratty very probably left the cases in that room.

The DNA cannot prove that Hanratty was the person who left the gun left on the bus.

Again, the DNA demonstrates Hanratty was the rapist and his hanky was found wrapped round the gun, hence makes it incredibly likely that he was the person who left it on the bus, but he could have given the gun wrapped in his hanky to Dixie France or someone else, who left it there.

As the Reed appeal has handed down the need for LCN DNA to be considered in light of al the evidence; all of the previous evidence needs to backed up by further forensic evidence such as fingerprints, hairs, clothing fibres and other corroborative evidence. No forensic evidence was found on the slugs and the gun.

No. The corroborative evidence need not be forensic, and the lack of forensic evidence is absolutely not evidence someone was not there because forensic evidence can be obliterated by subsequent events if there was sufficient material to be detected in the first place.

Blackhall and Hogan not only did not corroborate Skillet and Trower but contradicted them.

They did and their evidence was heard and evaluated by the jury. Hogan did contradict Trower, but Blackhall did not contradict Skillett completely. Also Skillett, as the driver, had more reason to be alert and notice details such as the description of the driver who cut him up. Blackhall could even be asleep! Or certainly less alert.

As for Hanratty having "the same identifying manner of speech as the killer;" How can a few specks of Hanratty's DNA on a piece of fabric lead one to the fact that the killer had the same manner of speech? Now that would be very clever science, but I am afraid it is just another red herring in this case.

Valerie gave evidence about the manner of speech of the killer before Hanratty was connected to the case, so the DNA identification of Hanratty and Hanratty's cockney dialect corroborate eachother.

As long as Valerie Stories indentification is safe then the DNA certainly backs her up. But the appeal court is wrong in what they said about the DNA making what was a strong case even stronger.

The DNA evidence corroborates the jury's conviction.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Alphon

Sorry about the delay--had to resize image!A photo of Alphon .Sorry about the gap between images ---at least they are on the same page and can be easily compared.

[Victor]

He is changing the offside rule to disallow a goal after it has been scored.

Foot was more candid on the Horizon programme:

“I'm a complete illiterate in relation to the science of DNA, physics and so on. I know nothing about it at all. My doubts stem solely from my, a very, very clear belief that this man did not commit this murder, so if the science is saying he did commit the murder I say well that clashes with my belief that he didn't commit the murder and there must be something wrong with the science.”

Hi Nick,

To paraphrase...

I believe the bible is god's word. The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs. Dinosaurs never existed. Fossil evidence is faked. QED.

I don't. Richard Dawkins is more reliable than the Bible.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Thanks Victor or sharing your own experience and I agree it is ofcourse sometimes for the best for all parties .
However I would suggest its not for a person outside that unhappy union to go ahead and attempt to steal another woman"s husband ,especially when the couple had tried to resolve their difficulties and both husband and wife hadexpressed a strong aversion to divorce.Ok it may have helped Mike Gregsten in the sense of having instant gratification with a young workmate - enjoying extra marital sex with Valerie --and it may not have bothered Valerie particularly that she was helping to put the final seal on the Gregsten"s marriage .But it has surely to be admitted that she was not acting in the most considerate way towards her married rival who had two young children to think about.

Hi Norma,

Why are you assuming that Valerie pursued Mike or "attempt[ed] to steal" him? Surely Mike as a member of that "unhappy union" could react in the only way acceptable to him and pursued extra-marital affairs rather than face divorce?

He had done it before.

Valerie, as a single woman, was free to accept advances from anyone.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

That quote relates to getting Alphon to confess. As the previous sentence in Woffiden says "Justice appreciated as keenly as Alphon the illusory value of the confession notes."

This was also a month or so before Alphons assualt on Mrs Hanratty and Jean Justice.

So Justice did not provoke Alphon the day Alphon assualted Justice and Mrs Hanratty at all.

Hi Clive,

The quote says Justice was actively provoking Alphon, therefore your final sentence is unsubstantiated. Justice very likely continued to provoke Alphon...

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

Norma,

To be honest I wouldn't be able to identify Alphon or Hanratty from those identikits.

In the end he was convinced the gunman was Alphon all along as he confessed several times

Alphon’s ‘confession’ was nearly 6 years after the event, and then he went back to denying his involvement.

Nick

[Victor]

Evening Victor
You obviously have not seen the "History Boys" then!
Clive

Hi Clive,

As a matter of fact I have the DVD here, but have not yet got round to watching it. I will do when I have time.

KR,
Vic.