a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

John,again,
Like Graham I recognise you have made an extremely important point regarding the evidence of Mr Skillett whose evidence at the trial was given much more weight---even though he was further away from the driver of the Morris Minor and would have had a more obstructed view of him.The significant factor here is that he identified Hanratty,whereas Mr Blackhall was that much closer with a better view and did not recognise him during the identity parade and like Valerie Storie had the first time round regarding Hanratty, identified a different man entirely.

The evidence of Mr Trower is even more worrying---he claimed a momentary half head sighting and went on the confidently "identify" Hanratty,yet Paddy Hogan, the man outside whose flat this "sighting" was alleged to have taken place said that on that particular morning Trower hadnt arrived until AFTER the Morris Minor had gone past and that he was especially late that morning to pick him up!
It certainly needed to be looked into!

[Natalie Severn]

The question is whether he volunteered that he went there because he thought he had been seen. I suggested it as a possiblity because there is no obvious alternative reason why he would have gone there first instead of straight to Euston.

Ron - I believe some newspapers reported JH as saying the train arrived in Liverpool at 3.30, others 4.30.

Nick, I think Hanratty said he took the Euston train to Liverpool at around midday -in fact he must have caught the 11.30. am train .They checked the train arrival times and he would have arrived in Liverpool at 4.43. This is later than Mrs Dinwoodie first gave for her recollection of meeting him [3 -4 pm] or someone who looked like him,which she later insisted was on Monday 21st August at 4.00 when the echo arrived-she also remembered it because her grandchild Barbara served there with her on that day in the afternoon .She said Barbara did not serve on the Tuesday afternoon but Linda Walton contradicted this and said Barbara did serve there on the Tuesday but only did so when children came in for sweets.Linda was there for about an hour late afternoon.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Hanratty himself says he was in London on Monday 21st, corroborated by Carole France's dentist appointment and the records of that. And then there is the stay at the Vienna, with the entry using Hanratty's widely known alias of Ryan.

KR,
Vic.

Quite right Victor.I did say I would check it out too ,if you recall.

[Natalie Severn]

For Nick:
I picked this tidbit up in Rhyl local studies Library this week:

A True Monster from Rhyl" Darkest History

Born in Manchester in 1891,Ronald True had a privileged upbringing by wealthy,loving parents and a strong affectionate bond to his mother.

By the time he was in his twenties he was totally dependent on his mother for money and was said to be a "born wastrel leading a vagabonds life,incapable of any type of work" which eventually led to his morphine addiction.
It turns out he married a young actress but left home to wander around London"s West End where he met a young prostitute Olive Young.he spent the night with her and made her a cup of tea but then went back to the kitchen,picked up a rolling pin and bludgeoned her with five blows and also strangled her with her dressing gown cord.He fled stealing £8 from her purse and her jewellry.He was sent to Broadmoor on grounds of insanity.
Nick, "repressed homosexuality" is often found in schizophrenia,but it really does not mean the person is actually gay-or would be wanting to "act out" -not at all.If you re-read what Jean Justice , who was gay, wrote about his attempt at an amorous encounter with Alphon , you will see that Alphon was uncomfortable about Jean"s happy open acceptance of his homosexuality and their attempt at consumation was a bit of a flop to say the least .As with this man Ronald True , such people are actually usually heterosexual,do not usually have a strong sex drive,but can certainly be stimulated by acts of S& M and the unusual circumstance of having a woman totally in their power as the gunman did in the case of Valerie Storie.

[CliveEnglish]

Rhyl Bus Times

A very good evening to you Norma.
As you are in Rhyl, is it possible for you to do a bit of research and find out the coach and bus times from Liverpool to Rhyl in August 1961?
Clive

Blooming hot down my way I do declare. Lots of factor 1000 and Aussie lager is keeping my pecker up.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Clive,
I read they were 6pm from Liverpool [now its 6.15 pm]to Rhyl.In the morning the coach leaves quite early---8.30 these days.But I will ask around Clive-with pleasure! Its gloriously sunny here and the sea is pearly white and completely calm.But yes,its very hot!

[CliveEnglish]

I think you've answered your own question there. Anderson let a petty criminal and her alleged accomplice into her home, and when she discovered that he wasn't just a petty burglar but a rapist and a murderer then she turned on him.

A very good evening to you Victor
According to Woffinden and the Metropolitan Police it may not have been so straightforward a choice for the fence Mrs Anderson. Despite denials of buying stolen goods from Hanratty she was raided by the police on the 20th October and over 50 items from recent burglaries (not all supplied by Hanratty) were removed. This was a month before the arraignment and would have weighed heavy on the mind of a middle aged widow facing a fair old time in Holloway Prison.
I tend to think that that was more of a motive to play ball and turn Queens evidence.
I got this from Woffinden on page 96.
Clive
I think a nice spicy chilli con carne and a few more lagers might cool me down a bit before Ghana knock the USA out! So if I were you I would get onto BetFred or whoever and place your house on the States as my forecasts in this World Cup have been poor!

[NickB]

For Nick:
I picked this tidbit up in Rhyl local studies Library this week:
A True Monster from Rhyl" Darkest History

Norma,

Thank-you very much, but I think it was Victor who made those points to which you are responding.

How did JH fit in all those things he said he did in Liverpool between 4.43 and 6.00pm? I believe Foot favoured a 3.30 arrival, to allow for this activity and the sweetshop timing.

Nick

[Victor]

Woffinden was instrumental in instigating the DNA tests, approved of them and wanted the results to be accepted as settling the matter.

Hi Nick,

Woffinden did instigate DNA testing, and it is a significant point that all of his current negativity towards the LCN results would have equally applied if the results had not shown Hanratty's profile. In other words, a negative result would have not exonerated Hanratty in his opinion.

Food for thought.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I've said before that the tube station assault was provoked by Justice - Woffinden says this too.

Could you please reply with references to your above statements. I can't find anything in Woffinden where he agrees with you!

Hi Clive,

See page 324 of Woffinden.

Do you mean the bit that starts "He [Justice] still hoped to provoke him [Alphon] into a more obvious indiscretion and as such tried to put him under emotional duress."? That sounds like Justice started the fight to me.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I would suggest that even those who support Hanratty read Leonard Miller's little book (if they can find a copy). It's not the best written piece of literature, and in truth he doesn't come up with any new facts or evidence, but he does at least put opposite views to those of Foot and Woffinden, and argues with their assumptions.

Hi Graham,

This may come as a surprise to many but I've never read Miller, despite attending the University where he lectures (York). I've tried hard to get a copy but it eludes me. If anyone knows where I could get a copy at a reasonable price then please let me know. I've emailed Zoilus Press and still not had any joy.

What I would really like to know is precisely what convinced the jury to return a guilty verdict based on the evidence given - one of the enduring mysteries of the A6 Case (to my mind, at least) is how Hanratty was found guilty on the evidence placed before the court. I truly believe that had he not changed his alibi and kept out of the witness box, he'd have been found not guilty. It always surprised me that his defence team agreed to those two actions. Still, had he been let off, there'd have been a guilty man released back into the community...

I could not agree more.

KR,
Vic.

[CliveEnglish]

Their Lordships Decree

Evening all
I haven't read the appeal paper very closely; yet the following paragraph does not make much sense.

...Mr Michael Sherrard apparently opened the defence at the trial by saying appositely that this was a case “sagging with coincidences”. Just let us consider some of the more striking coincidences in the light of the DNA evidence if James Hanratty was not guilty. He was wrongly identified by three witnesses at identification parades; first as the person at the scene of the crime and secondly (by two witnesses) driving a vehicle close to where the vehicle in which the murder was committed was found; he had the same identifying manner of speech as the killer; he stayed in a room the night before the crime from which bullets that had been fired from the murder weapon were recovered; the murder weapon was recovered from a place on a bus which he regarded as a hiding place and the bus followed a route he could well have used; his DNA was found on a piece of material from Valerie Storie’s knickers where it would be expected to be if the appellant was guilty; it was also found on the handkerchief found with the gun. The number of alleged coincidences means that they are not coincidences but overwhelming proof of the safety of the conviction from an evidential perspective."...

The only point that the appeal court makes which is truly relevant to the identification of the A6 murderer by way of the DNA is that Hanratty's DNA has been found on Valerie Stories knickers.
No other "number of alleged coincidences" can be shown to be proof of anything at all, let alone "overwhelming proof of the safety of the conviction from an evidential perspective".
The DNA cannot show that either of Skillet or Trowers identification is proof that the driver of the car they saw was Hanratty, when or where it was later found parked.
The DNA cannot prove that the slugs found in room 24 of the Vienna Hotel were left there by anyone at all.
The DNA cannot prove that Hanratty was the person who left the gun left on the bus.
As the Reed appeal has handed down the need for LCN DNA to be considered in light of al the evidence; all of the previous evidence needs to backed up by further forensic evidence such as fingerprints, hairs, clothing fibres and other corroborative evidence. No forensic evidence was found on the slugs and the gun. Blackhall and Hogan not only did not corroborate Skillet and Trower but contradicted them.
As for Hanratty having "the same identifying manner of speech as the killer;" How can a few specks of Hanratty's DNA on a piece of fabric lead one to the fact that the killer had the same manner of speech? Now that would be very clever science, but I am afraid it is just another red herring in this case.
As long as Valerie Stories indentification is safe then the DNA certainly backs her up. But the appeal court is wrong in what they said about the DNA making what was a strong case even stronger.
Clive

[Victor]

Dads ,however much we love them can act like tyrannical monsters at times regarding their 16 year old daughters who are just as eager as their sons mostly, to sample the delights and "Vivre la Vie"!

Hi Norma,

Dads can indeed be overprotective.

But betrayal in a marriage when young children are involved is different.It requires a person to practice a particular type of deceit towards their partners and involves the betrayal of trust-and often leads to the wreckage of a marriage causing a lot of pain and distress not least for the children.

I think I've read Gregsten was deeply unhappy with his marriage, and his wife's frigidity, and had a number of extramarital relations. My parents separated in the late-80s and I now believe that that was best for both of them, for both mental and emotional reasons. I said the same thing then and am convinced that they stayed together for a number of years for the sake of myself and my younger brother (who's a year younger). Both my parents are adamant that neither strayed during their marriage, although my mother does not believe that my father didn't.

You are assuming a lot to say that there was any deceit in the Gregsten marriage, see page 16 of Woffinden...
"'It wasn't the first affair Mike had had' Janet Gresten confirmed. ' I won't say I wasn't affected by them. I was, but I wasn't jealous. Sexually, we weren't marvellous together. I knew I wasn't giving Mike the sex he needed. So I understood why he was going elsewhere.'"

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I can only say that my interpretation of the most recent Woffinden article in "The Oldie" is different.He makes the following statement unequivocally :LCN testing has never been used in the US or in the majority of jurisdictions in continental Europe .

Hi Norma,

"Jurisdictions" refers to court proceedings, and therefore is correct, LCN is not permitted to be used in evidence in court anywhere in the world other than the UK, Netherlands and New Zealand. But that does not mean that the police forces and FBI do not use it to zone in on a suspect and concentrate their efforts in finding permissible evidence in regard to that suspect..

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

In other words, a negative result would have not exonerated Hanratty in his opinion.

He is changing the offside rule to disallow a goal after it has been scored.

Foot was more candid on the Horizon programme:

“I'm a complete illiterate in relation to the science of DNA, physics and so on. I know nothing about it at all. My doubts stem solely from my, a very, very clear belief that this man did not commit this murder, so if the science is saying he did commit the murder I say well that clashes with my belief that he didn't commit the murder and there must be something wrong with the science.”