a6 murder

[caz]

If you recall Valerie changed her description in the early stages,identifying a completely innocent man of a quite different build and hair colour to Hanratty.

No I don't recall, Nats. What exactly was the build and hair colour of the man Valerie initially picked out by mistake?

She also spent a long time at the identification parade in deciding it was Hanratty---it took her a total of twenty minutes and appeared to have depended on hearing him say,"Be quiet ,I am thinking"-or similar words.It has since been discovered that Hanratty was the only "cockney" amongst the other regional and received dialects Valerie heard at the identification, and in here testimony she recalled the man spoke with a cockney accent.

Not good enough - 'appeared to have depended on'. The longer she spent making sure this time that she wasn't making a second mistake, the better in my view this made her as a witness. No rush to judgement this time. If her attacker hadn't been there, I do believe she would have said so. And the longer she spent confronted with her attacker once more, the more senses would come into play to help with her recognition - hearing his voice again being just one painful reminder. If he had spoken straight away, and she had immediately settled for him on that basis alone, you might have had more of a point.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi All,

I was just thinking - nobody who believes Hanratty was innocent has yet come up with a coherent chain of events, from when he first came to police attention in 1961, right through to the result of the appeal in 2002, to explain how it all went wrong for him and kept on going wrong for him.

Who was responsible for each faulty link in this chain, and in what way responsible? How did each link connect to the next one? How many individuals were instrumental in the final outcome? Which ones were acting together and which ones separately, to protect or promote their various interests?

It's no good keep twisting and turning from dirty deeds to human error and back again. That only offers idle speculation that won't get you past square one. You have to decide on the nature of your beasts at every stage and turn it with hard facts into a coherent whole.

In short, who did what by accident and who did what by design, to seal Hanratty's fate, assuming it wasn't the fates themselves conspiring against him at every turn?

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

My computer isnt working properly so my replies will have to be brief folks.

Caz,
Regarding Valerie Storie"s identifications.She failed the first time to even get the right man.She failed the second time to identify him "the moment she saw him"---it took her twenty minutes to be "certain". Full stop.


Regarding the LCN DNA tests on these 38 year old fragments of cloth.The FBI wont even go there---they wont use such testing because of the dangers.Currently there is ongoing controversy here over how they can be used.

Regarding the witnesses in Rhyl: Beginning with Margaret Walker and Ivy Vincent both these women gave information to the police,during the trial--we dont know why it wasnt passed on to the defence.Margaret Walker was perfectly clear about the date,the 22nd,the day of the murder. This was followed by Christopher Larman who was also clear about the date he saw Hanratty in Rhyl-22nd August ,the day of the murder.He too gave his statement to the police but did the defence ever see it? Not until 29 years later!

A lot of statements by big time gangsters went forward to comprise the evidence for the prosecution.The ex convict Nudds for example ,was a thoroughly disgusting seasoned jailbird,just out of a nine year stint in the nick where he had turned prison informer.Much of what he said about Alphon to Detectives Acott and Oxford about the room occupants of the Vienna put Alphon in the frame as 'prime -and only-suspect [until later in September].Then,when Valerie failed to identify Alphon Nudds altered his statements ,particularly about the times and specific days he saw Alphon and /or Hanratty simply saying he was sorry to have "made a mistake" .The police gave out a new description of the killer .From then on Nudds,Langdale and others such as France -all from the criminal fraternity, turned their corrupt beam on Hanratty .So Hanratty like Alphon had been immediately before him, was set in train for being framed for the murder.
In todays courts the conviction of Hanratty would never have held and given the CV"s"s of many of the main dramatis personnae ,the conviction should not have been made in 1961.The conviction was and still is unsafe!
BTW Caz---Approx 40-50% of the population share blood group 'O".Alphon was "O" so was Hanratty.

[NickB]

In the id parade Valerie did recognise Hanratty "the moment she saw him". She took longer to be wheeled around all the men and be certain. Also, she was aware that drawing out the identification was causing him discomfort.

[Natalie Severn]

In the id parade Valerie did recognise Hanratty "the moment she saw him". She took longer to be wheeled around all the men and be certain. Also, she was aware that drawing out the identification was causing him discomfort.

Hi Nick,
I can find no evidence anywhere for the above statement .Would it be possible for you to give me a source? The record of evidence is that Valerie was wheeled up and down nine times before she identified him ,that it took her twenty minutes and that she is on record as saying only two weeks after the crime that she was afraid she might not be able to identify the gunman because "her memory of the man"s face is fading" .Valerie Storie went on to "positively identify " a totally different man, an innocent man on National service simply acting as one of the ID parade.So she obviously displayed faulty memory in that instance .
Best
Norma

[Victor]

Hi Norma,

Regarding Valerie Storie"s identifications.She failed the first time to even get the right man.She failed the second time to identify him "the moment she saw him"---it took her twenty minutes to be "certain". Full stop.

What exactly does the emboldened sentence mean? The "right man" is surely her rapist, the fact that Alphon was the suspect on that parade absolutely does not make him the "right man". I don't have my books with me at the moment, but Woffinden quotes VS trial evidence concerning the ID parade and I believe she says she recognised Hanratty pretty quickly but wanted to make sure so didn't announce her decision until she'd used the voice as confirmation.

Regarding the LCN DNA tests on these 38 year old fragments of cloth.The FBI wont even go there---they wont use such testing because of the dangers.Currently there is ongoing controversy here over how they can be used.

There is a difference between using LCN as admissible evidence in court, and using it as an investigative tool - I believe the FBI use it for the latter but are not permitted to use it for the former. They're pretty stupid if they don't.

Regarding the witnesses in Rhyl: Beginning with Margaret Walker and Ivy Vincent both these women gave information to the police,during the trial--we dont know why it wasnt passed on to the defence.

Their names were passed to the defence in accordance with rules of the time, this was 6 months after the crime because it was only mentioned by Hanratty as an ambush alibi during the trial.

The ex convict Nudds for example ,was a thoroughly disgusting seasoned jailbird,just out of a nine year stint in the nick where he had turned prison informer.Much of what he said about Alphon to Detectives Acott and Oxford about the room occupants of the Vienna put Alphon in the frame as 'prime -and only-suspect [until later in September].

Nudds is despicable, but then so is Hanratty's prison history for someone so much younger. It was his 2nd statement that put Alphon in the frame, and may be because Acott and Oxford were desperate for leads and pressurised him for more details.

Then,when Valerie failed to identify Alphon Nudds altered his statements ,particularly about the times and specific days he saw Alphon and /or Hanratty simply saying he was sorry to have "made a mistake".

Then Nudds altered his statements back to what they were originally.

Approx 40-50% of the population share blood group 'O".Alphon was "O" so was Hanratty.

http://www.blood.co.uk/about-blood/blood-group-basics/

The NHS say 44% for the UK, split 37% O+, and 7% O- (which includes Hanratty, not sure about Alphon).

KR,
Vic.

[caz]

Caz,
Regarding Valerie Storie"s identifications.She failed the first time to even get the right man.

Thanks for the information, Nats, but I was actually aware of that fact, as is anyone else who has read all 557 pages of this thread.

Unlike you, I don't presume that the right man was there first time but she failed to "even" get him.

If right man no there, victim no see.

It would be nice if you could actually consider the points I've raised before posting more old news that never did hit the spot. Once again, forget how any of the Rhyl witnesses knew the right date. How did any of them know it was Hanratty they saw, so many months after an entirely unremarkable little encounter with a man they didn't know from Adam and never expected to see again?? What were they given for comparison purposes? A photo? And how would that even begin to compare with the rape victim's very recent, lengthy, up close and personal encounter with her attacker, which she managed to survive by the skin of her teeth, enabling her to see him again and single him out, if and when the police found him and stuck him in a line-up?

She failed to recognise Alphon as that man. Full stop.

If you believe she got that wrong, how on earth can you be remotely confident that anyone from Rhyl got it right, when you compare all the circumstances?

BTW Caz---Approx 40-50% of the population share blood group 'O".Alphon was "O" so was Hanratty.

Yes, Nats, thank you. I did already know that Alphon and Hanratty were both group O.

But you stated as a "fact" that this applies to 50% of the population, then you lowered it to 40% "of course", and now you say "Approx 40-50%".

http://www.blood.co.uk/about-blood/blood-group-basics/

O positive = 37%
All O = 44%

A positive = 35%
All A = 42%

So it's still as true as it was when I said it last time - the majority would not have been group O. A whacking 63% would not have been O positive. So anyone framing Hanratty, knowing he was innocent, would have been taking a stab in the dark - several stabs if they didn't know who the rapist was and what forensic evidence he had left at the scene, or that both prime suspects would turn out to share the same 'guilty' blood group.

All I'm saying here is that the group O argument goes both ways and isn't particularly helpful to the "framing an innocent man" theories.

Love,

Caz
X

PS Blimey, Vic, great minds eh? I composed my post before seeing yours!

[NickB]

Hi Nick,
I can find no evidence anywhere for the above statement .Would it be possible for you to give me a source?
Norma

On 28-Apr-02, before the Court Of Appeal decision, Valerie was quoted in the 'Mail on Sunday':
"I looked in his eyes and he looked in mine. I knew who he was and he knew that I recognised him. I had found the guilty person."
I linked to an online page of this article in an earlier post, but the Mail appear to have removed it since.

Then after the decision the Daily Mail reported:
“Speaking of the moment she identified Hanratty, she said: “I looked into his eyes, he looked into mine and it was all over.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-113967/Hanratty-victim-vindicated.html

Regarding 'discomfort', in Today magazine a few weeks after Hanratty had been executed, she said of the id parade:
“I had waited for twenty minutes knowing that this man who had trampled my life underfoot like a worm was suffering in that empty thing he called his soul.”
I have not seen this article but it was quoted earlier in this thread (by someone who was accusing Valerie of duplicity) and not challenged.

[Victor]

PS Blimey, Vic, great minds eh? I composed my post before seeing yours!

The power of google "blood groups" then selected the percentage option!

To clarify my earlier comment, Hanratty is O- but Rhesus factor cannot be determined from semen.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic and Caz,

Point of information:

At 11am on 24th September 1961 at Guy"s Hospital Valerie Storie POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED from a parade of TEN different men the man she thought the A6 killer. She thought Michael Clark was her RAPIST and HER LOVER"S KILLER .He was a RAF Airman . Full stop[as Colin would say eh Caz!]

[Natalie Severn]

Point of information for Caz:
Acott was asked by Sherrard what the man , Michael Clark [the wrongly identified A6 killer looked like;here is his reply:
I have his full description....He is 5ft 9 ins,dark,short-cropped hair,about 27 years of age and HE WAS HEAVILY BUILT ,
Love
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nick,
Whatever Valerie was quoted as saying to The Mail and Today after the Identification an examination of who she wrongly identified in the first place, as her rapist and Gregston"s killer ,should give much pause for thought.She also described her rapist and Gregston"s killer as follows,in her original description :
[the gunman"s] hair was straight,well greased,dark brown,brushed straight back,slightly receding at temples

This description was accurate for Alphon but not for Hanratty.
Best Wishes
Norma

[CliveEnglish]

Point of information for Caz:
Acott was asked by Sherrard what the man , Michael Clark [the wrongly identified A6 killer looked like;here is his reply:
I have his full description....He is 5ft 9 ins,dark,short-cropped hair,about 27 years of age and HE WAS HEAVILY BUILT ,
Love
Norma

A very good early evening to you Norma
I would like to add to what you say above.
Michael Sherrard quizzed DS Acott about the availability of Mr Clark to come before the court. DS Acott fobbed Mr Sherrard off with a quip along the lines of - he was some time ago.
But even so, Mr Sherrard should have insisted at all costs that Mr Clark was brought to court for the purpose of comparison with the defendant Hanratty, don't you think?
Clive

Argentina looked very impressive this afternoon...pity about Spain getting beaten by the Swiss, funny old game aint it!

[NickB]

Hi Nick,
Whatever Valerie was quoted as saying ... should give much pause for thought.

Fair enough. But saying there is "no evidence anywhere" for something and disagreeing with it are two different things.

[Natalie Severn]

Many Thanks Clive and Nick,
I think it fair for Caz to remind me that I havent been contributing until very recently to this compelling thread which has over 550 pages of very impressive discussion and research on it.But I am not new to the case by any means.The Rhyl link that had Hanratty staying at a guest house in Kinmel Road has always horrified me, but Hanratty was executed and so is dead and gone so I havent wanted to "go there" much,given the pathos that existed at the time up here and the mindless horror of the event itself leaving a man dead and a woman paralysed for life.
I spend quite a bit of time up here in North Wales -I was born in Birkenhead, near Liverpool. My parents retired here,near Rhyl, and left us their bungalow when they died and I came up yesterday.I was in Rhyl today talking to the sales lady who works on the book counter in the main book store here.She remembered the case very well."No Hanratty couldnt have done it---he was here in Rhyl when it happened-people came forward who saw him" she said.
I too vaguely remember there was a kind of outcry about it in the North West- a general belief that the wrong man may have hanged and that justice had not been done.
Anyway I took some pictures of the guest house and if anyone wants pictures of the fairground etc just say so.I have forgotten to bring the lead to transfer the images but may find a way round it!
Cheers
Norma