a6 murder

[SteveS]

What evidence is there that Storie actually did try to spell out "Blue Eyes" with the aid of stones in the layby at Deadman's Hill?

This is stated in the "Facts" section by the CACD at paragraph 25 and I quote:

With her right hand she gathered up some stones and told the jury that she tried to make the words "blue eyes" and "brown hair".

She may have told the jury this; but is it an actual fact?

Was any evidence ever found to corroborate this rock art revelation at Deadman's Hill? I haven't heard of any. If not why not? She would no doubt, if she really did try to spell out this vital description, have mentioned it fairly soon after having been found.

I contend that Storie lied and no such thing ever happened. In fact it should be fairly obvious to any intelligent thinking person (right, left, upside down or whatever) that Storie didn't have the first idea regarding the identity of Gregstens murderer. The whole covert side of Stories statements was not fully discovered until the early 1990's.

Acott stage managed the whole A6 murder case fiasco from the very shaky start to the piss poor finish.

The FSS's Dr Whitaker put the cherry on the top of this rancid cake when he fiddled the interpretation of the DNA evidence in 2002 to help nail the case against Hanratty.

Just out of interest, a little bird told me that Woffinden is raising funds to have the DNA evidence in this case reexamined by DNA experts in the USA.

[jimarilyn]

Actually it does nothing of the sort, a post can be quoted and in the meantime the original poster can edit the post so that the quoted post maintains the original where the post itself displays the new editted version, which is what I assumed had happened. My mistake, now that Ron has confirmed that it was he who amended the quote, then I withdraw my comment. It remains a mistake and not a lie though, so you need to apologise.

No. You stated quite clearly that I had amended my post. This is a misleading lie not a mistake. You could clearly see that my post was submitted a full hour and three quarters before RonIpstone's. Posters cannot edit their posts if more than half an hour has passed since their post was submitted. It requires no confirmation by him that he amended my quote as it is in black and white for all to see.


As for your other point.....
So what is the big difference Victor between.....

"My opinion, which is the one that counts"
and
"My opinion, which is the only one counts" ?

OK, if I withdraw the word 'only' does it alter the arrogance of that statement ?

Ditto my comment a week or so ago where I inadvertently added the unforgiveable word "fast" to VS's statement "my memory of this man's face is fading".

[jimarilyn]

What evidence is there that Storie actually did try to spell out "Blue Eyes" with the aid of stones in the layby at Deadman's Hill?

This is stated in the "Facts" section by the CACD at paragraph 25 and I quote:

With her right hand she gathered up some stones and told the jury that she tried to make the words "blue eyes" and "brown hair".

She may have told the jury this; but is it an actual fact?

Was any evidence ever found to corroborate this rock art revelation at Deadman's Hill? I haven't heard of any. If not why not? She would no doubt, if she really did try to spell out this vital description, have mentioned it fairly soon after having been found.

I contend that Storie lied and no such thing ever happened. In fact it should be fairly obvious to any intelligent thinking person (right, left, upside down or whatever) that Storie didn't have the first idea regarding the identity of Gregstens murderer. The whole covert side of Stories statements was not fully discovered until the early 1990's.

A very perceptive post Steve.
I have often wondered about this myself, especially as there were no small stones to be found. She would also have required at least a hundred of these stones to spell out those four words. I too believe that this was a much later invention, designed to incriminate James Hanratty, especially when you consider the fact that John Kerr testified that she told him the killer had "light fairish hair".

Of course John Kerr was another totally unreliable witness.

[jimarilyn]

What evidence is there that Storie actually did try to spell out "Blue Eyes" with the aid of stones in the layby at Deadman's Hill?

This is stated in the "Facts" section by the CACD.

Another erroneous 'fact' they stated early on in that judgment was that Valerie Storie was 23 years old when she was actually 22. Very careless that they couldn't do their homework properly and get their facts right.

[RonIpstone]

Could certain posters please refrain from using unparliamentary language when debating. This is a respectable Casebook forum, not a four ale bar in the Dingle.


Thank you.

Ron

[Victor]

No. You stated quite clearly that I had amended my post. This is a misleading lie not a mistake. You could clearly see that my post was submitted a full hour and three quarters before RonIpstone's. Posters cannot edit their posts if more than half an hour has passed since their post was submitted. It requires no confirmation by him that he amended my quote as it is in black and white for all to see.

There were two possibilities, Ron amended your quote, or you did with the Edit button. I naturally assumed you did, but this was wrong, and it is a simple mistake.

As for your other point.....
So what is the big difference Victor between.....

"My opinion, which is the one that counts"
and
"My opinion, which is the only one counts" ?

There's a massively significant difference between the two, without the "only" it is a perfectly valid statement of confidence when arguing your case, the other is arrogant.

OK, if I withdraw the word 'only' does it alter the arrogance of that statement ?

Completely.

Ditto my comment a week or so ago where I inadvertently added the unforgiveable word "fast" to VS's statement "my memory of this man's face is fading".

Yes, that makes things appear signifcantly worse for VS.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

A very perceptive post Steve.
I have often wondered about this myself, especially as there were no small stones to be found. She would also have required at least a hundred of these stones to spell out those four words. I too believe that this was a much later invention, designed to incriminate James Hanratty, especially when you consider the fact that John Kerr testified that she told him the killer had "light fairish hair".

Rubbish. And hypocritical for someone who argues that there is no motive for Hanratty to commit the crime, what possible motive could Storie have for making an innocent person die? You're essentially saying she's responsible for killing someone you think is innocent, i.e. she's a murderer.

Of course John Kerr was another totally unreliable witness.

What was it he originally thought VS name was?

KR,
Vic.

[RonIpstone]

I have never been shot five times in the torso, so I am not qualified to comment on the effect that such an ordeal, the aftermath and treatment, would have on the victim, but Valerie Storie is to be congratulated for her fortitude in not only surviving to tell the tale, but to tell the tale in such a cogent and coherent manner so as to bring the perpetrator of this wicked crime to account. James Hanratty must have rued the folly which led him to Dorney Reach and the holding up of Gregsten and Storie in the former's aunt's Moggie Minor. I am sure all right thinking people will join me in saying 'Well done Valerie Storie!'

To the members of the Flat Earth Society who persist in proclaiming Hanratty's innocence and insinuating that Miss Storie erred in selecting Hanratty out of the identification parade, you will have to explain how Hanratty's DNA was detected on Valerie's knickers when the 'real' rapist's DNA had vanished. Until this is done the fact is that Hanratty raped Valerie and we know this because Hanratty's DNA was detected on her knickers.

[jimarilyn]

Obviously we members of the Flat Earth Society [ I see you have pinched your mate Graham's expression there] haven't got the same unquestioned faith in our Glorious Establishment that members of the "arrogant we know better than you society" have.
As we all know this Glorious Establishment of ours would never dream of hoodwinking gullible Joe Public in order to maintain an untenable position they have held for nearly half a century.

An agenda has been maintained since 1962. In their tireless search for justice the Hanratty family and believers in James Hanratty's innocence were fobbed off time and time again by this establishment. The status quo had to remain intact. They defiantly ignored all the mightily impressive and persuasive testimony that James Hanratty was nowhere near Dorney Reach on the evening of Tuesday, August 22nd 1961.

No independent and impartial inquiry has ever taken place since 1962.

The FSS in Birmingham are an arm of the Home Office. They were given the task of conducting the LCN DNA tests. Just like asking the fox to investigate the theft at the chicken coop !! There was only ever going to be one outcome.

Just imagine if the real truth had come out. What a devastating and catastrophic effect that would have had on Valerie Storie, possibly leading to tragic consequences. Too much for her to handle. It would also have ruined the reputations of such eminent establishment figures as Acott, Oxford, Swanwick, Butler et al.

I believe the spirit of James Hanratty is crying out for justice, and that this is why this case won't lie down and die. Truth will out in the end.

[jimarilyn]

I have never been shot five times in the torso, so I am not qualified to comment on the effect that such an ordeal, the aftermath and treatment, would have on the victim.

VS wasn't shot in the torso. She was shot in her left shoulder and neck, sustaining five .32 calibre bullet wounds. According to Keith Simpson anyhow.

[RonIpstone]

Comrades, over the past few months I may have inadvertently given the impression that I thought that James Hanratty was a vicious killer and a sadistic rapist who got his just deserts when hanged at Bedford Prison in April 1962. In fact nothing could have been further from the truth.

Jim, as he liked to be called, was a lovable and valued member of the working class society in which he lived. It is believed that Jim was executed on the direction of the now disgraced Harold Macmillan with the full assistance and approbation of his dutiful lieutenant and lapdog of the rich, Richard Austen Butler, known to the capitalist right wing press and others as Rab. It is believed that Supermac, as the Old Etonian Macmillan liked to be known, ordered the execution of Hanratty to deflect publicity away from the disgraced Tory government which he knew was in the offing as a result of the the Minister for War's sexual indiscretions. That the Profumo affair reared its ugly bourgeois head in 1963 only shows how important it was for the evil capitalist government to have Hanratty judicially assassinated in the previous year.

Yet this evil plot against the man of the people, Jim, did not stop with the Tory establishment and its nasty oppressive government. Claret swigging Woy Jenkins and Farmer Sunny Jim when obtaining the reins of power in the evil Wilsonian government refused to assist the Hanratty family in their quest for that which is every free born worker's right to have endless inquiries to establish that their worthy eldest son was not a vicious and incompetent murderer.

Brothers, this unsatisfactory state of affairs has continued through successive oppressive right wing and neo-right wing regimes and the treasured memory of James 'Jim' Hanratty remains tainted with the unsubstantiated allegations dreamed up by Supermac all those years ago. There is now hope that the new politics of Dave Cameroon and Cleggy will bring forward the 'Justice' demanded by the people. Not since the aftermath of the Great War has the Liberal Party had its grubby hands on the levers of power, so we will see whether the Lib Dems (as the Liberal Party likes to be known) are like all the oppressive regimes since 1962 or whether it will do the decent thing and let Jim off.

Power to the people.

Comrade Ron

[caz]

...Premium member Caz.

You got a problem with that, jimarilyn? Take it to admin. I didn't ask for Premium membership. It was thrust upon me - apparently because I pay so you don't have to.

I'm not really a political animal, so I don't know whether that makes me a champagne socialist, a thoroughly decent citizen, part of the rotten establishment or some kind of mug. What do you reckon?

If you want the plain old Caz back, just say the word. I'll let you know how much it'll cost you.

I contend that Storie lied and no such thing ever happened. In fact it should be fairly obvious to any intelligent thinking person (right, left, upside down or whatever) that Storie didn't have the first idea regarding the identity of Gregstens murderer...

And I contend that Hanratty lied when trying and failing to provide an alibi. In fact it should be fairly obvious to any intelligent thinking person that an innocent man would have said he was in Rhyl right from the start if that's where he was. "You haven't got the first idea, lady. I was in Rhyl." Didn't happen, did it?

The FSS's Dr Whitaker put the cherry on the top of this rancid cake when he fiddled the interpretation of the DNA evidence in 2002 to help nail the case against Hanratty.

Fiddled the interpretation? In your own mind perhaps, Steve. But how would that work in practice? You must have a clue, surely, if you want to present it as a fact?

Just out of interest, a little bird told me that Woffinden is raising funds to have the DNA evidence in this case reexamined by DNA experts in the USA.

Only from people with more money than sense. It'll take more than other people's money to make the DNA evidence indicate the guilt of anyone but Hanratty.

I believe the spirit of James Hanratty is crying out for justice, and that this is why this case won't lie down and die. Truth will out in the end.

Oh Gawd, we should have known that there is no arguing against this sort of faith-based tripe.

The truth came out in 2002, jimarilyn, but it could never hope to compete with faith, and the two are incompatible. Truth makes faith redundant, but if you can't bear to part with your faith there's no room for the truth.

I notice you don't believe Hanratty's spirit could be tricking you into accusing his victim of murdering him.
If I could believe in such things, I'd say he's still doing the devil's work and you are just one of his unsuspecting pawns.

Hanratty is now Saint Jim and Valerie Storie just a lying, murdering scarlet woman. This is a new low, and I can only hope Limehouse stays well above it.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Just read your post, Ron. I advise a touch of the demon drink tonight. And I'll be joining you. It can only help us come to our senses by mixing our spirits.

Saint Jim wasn't a working class hero, he was a very naughty boy.

Comrade Caz
X

[Victor]

In their tireless search for justice the Hanratty family and believers in James Hanratty's innocence were fobbed off time and time again by this establishment. The status quo had to remain intact. They defiantly ignored all the mightily impressive and persuasive testimony that James Hanratty was nowhere near Dorney Reach on the evening of Tuesday, August 22nd 1961.

If you weren't such a whining hypocritical sycophantic liar, and actually produced some cogent solid evidence then people would listen, instead you make pronouncments like identification evidence is inherently unreliable so ignore all the evidence against Hanratty, and here's some identification evidence that proves Hanratty was in Rhyl at the time.

Or listen to this very impressive witness Olive Dinwoodie, she is a virtuous old lady and would never lie or give a hardened criminal a false alibi - BUT ignore the bit where she says it happened on a day when Hanratty was in London.

Or listen to Alphon's lies - they have the "ring of believeability"

The FSS in Birmingham are an arm of the Home Office. They were given the task of conducting the LCN DNA tests. Just like asking the fox to investigate the theft at the chicken coop !! There was only ever going to be one outcome.

Sean Hodgson was released after tests by FSS, what possible reason is there for fiddling Hanratty's results?

I believe the spirit of James Hanratty is crying out for justice, and that this is why this case won't lie down and die. Truth will out in the end.

I hope the spirit of Michael Gregsten has been peacefully resting since April 1962 when his murderer was justly executed.

KR,
Vic.

[RonIpstone]

I advise a touch of the demon drink tonight.

Zdravstvuj Comrade Caz,

Will do.

Comrade Ron