a6 murder

[SteveS]

That is a lot of money for the time, but the only reason we know about it is because Alphon agreed that Foot could see his bank statements. Alphon wanted Foot to see that, he manipulated Foot, and by itself it proves nothing, unless you can find out where the money came from.

Alphon only let Foot see his Bank Account statements after the moritorium on the death penalty had been in place (1965).

It is also relevant that Alphon went on a major press assault making his confessions after the suspension of capital crime (1965).

How many public confessions did Alphon make before the death penalty was suspended (1965)?

[SteveS]

Acott never prescribed skull caps, he made sure they were available should Kleinmann have requested them.

Really Victor,

If the CIO in a major murder case wants a particular object or point to be followed that would infer that it is extremely important and it should be followed or done.

Therefore, as you suggest, for what reason would Acott try to preempt Kleinmann's thinking that skull caps would be needed or should be worn? In fact Kleinmann had never met Hanratty before.

More importantly, and contrary to the point that you make, at the time of the ID parade Kleinmann never knew of the availablity of the skull caps.

You accept that Acott knew that that the state of Hanratty's hair colour was a major factor and would have prejudiced him and called for action that was ignored. Yet Acott gave no mention of this very important safeguard to the defendents rights at trial.

Why did Acott do this Victor?

[Victor]

Why skull caps? Wouldn't wooly hats have covered more?

Possibly. They could also have made his staring blue eyes more prominent.

If the CIO in a major murder case wants a particular object or point to be followed that would infer that it is extremely important and it should be followed or done.

And there's no evidence that it wasn't. They were available as Acott requested should they be required.

Therefore, as you suggest, for what reason would Acott try to preempt Kleinmann's thinking that skull caps would be needed or should be worn? In fact Kleinmann had never met Hanratty before.

To ensure the ID parade went ahead, that they were prepared for the situation where Kleinmann or Hanratty objected, so they could have the choice of wearing them or not.

More importantly, and contrary to the point that you make, at the time of the ID parade Kleinmann never knew of the availablity of the skull caps.

Are you sure about that? He didn't object so they weren't necessary. The big point that you seem to have missed is that what inferences would the jury have made if Hanratty had refused to take part in the ID parade? Acott was helping them out by arranging for the caps to be available so Hanratty wouldn't face that dilemma.

You accept that Acott knew that that the state of Hanratty's hair colour was a major factor and would have prejudiced him and called for action that was ignored. Yet Acott gave no mention of this very important safeguard to the defendents rights at trial.

No,. I accept that the hair colour could have been a dealbreaker, so Acott took precautions so Hanratty couldn't claim unfairness that steps were not taken. In the end it wasn't raised at the time so the precautions were unneccesary so there was no need to mention it.

Why did Acott do this Victor?

To give Kleinmann and Hanratty every opportunity to fairly participate in as fair an ID parade as was acceptable to them, and beforehand they both accepted that it was. It's only after Hanratty was fingered by 3 people that the objections arose.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Re: JM's post, it's been some time since the Manifesto of the Flat Earth Society was posted on this thread! One or two brief comments, if I may:

1] neither of the Identikit images resemble Peter Alphon to my eyes, and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this.

2] the police interviewed a number of persons other than Alphon and Hanratty regarding the A6 Case, and as their names were never released we don't know if Alphon was their 'original suspect'. He was, however, the first suspect whose name was made public.

3] So what? Sheer coincidence. Could've been the Vienna or any one of a hundred cheap hotels around and about.

4] only Juliana Galves claims to have seen black gloves; she could have been mistaken. Pure heresay evidence. How about the black gloves Louise Anderson said that Hanratty stole from her?

5] As Vic says, this was Alphon's way of life, to occupy a hotel room for as long as it suited him. He acted strangely because he was strange; he was, to put it bluntly, a nutter. He did not draw attention to himself, either; the person in the next room complained to the management of his odd behaviour.

6] I should think 90% of the population had read a newspaper containing details of the A6 murder. Maybe Alphon had the Daily Express to study its racing pages. Pure coincidence.

7] By whom was the person fitting Alphon's description spotted? (See 9 below)

8] Good God....straw-clutching.

9] Did Michael Fogerty-Waul give his description of the Sidney Tafler lookalike before or after pictures of Alphon appeared in the newspapers? Or was a certain Belgian 'businessman' putting words into Mr F-W's mouth?

10] Alphon was very careful not to open his bank-account to Foot's inspection until such time after his bank could legally destroy the cashed cheques. Even Foot suggests that the money could have been gambling winnings, out-of-court settlements, whatever. Meaningless.

11] Alphon needed a new mac. He went and bought one. I bought one myself the other day.

12] Meaningless. VS said the man was immaculately dressed. But it was dark, and perhaps for 'immaculate' read 'smart'.

13] VS said (to John Kerr) that the man had 'fairish brown hair'. When Scotland Yard issued their description of Alphon as a man they wished to interview, they described his hair as 'brushed back and flat'. I never quite connected this description of Alphon's hair with any description that VS gave of it.

14] In the same police description as [13] above, Alphon was described as 'well-spoken, speaks like a Londoner in a quiet voice'. Just like his voice in the famous filmed Paris interview. If the police had meant 'Cockney', they'd have said 'Cockney'. Clutching at straws again here, I feel.

15] Hardly any notorious murder since records began has passed without some nut or nuts confessing to it. Witness the Yorkshire Ripper. No Alphon 'confession' can be read without noting a certain elementary mistake, for example he said he fired only one shot at Gregsten.

16] Violent streak? Who says? Did he have a police record for violence? Hanratty admitted to taking a whack at the two Blackpool villains who accosted him not long before his arrest.

17] I know the Slough area quite well too. Does that make me a suspect for the A6 Murder? I hope not, 'cos I'm planning to go out tomorrow night.

18] Good God....

....and finally...where is Alphon's DNA?

Graham

PS: Jim, in case of any future confusion, I really did write the above post, rather than quoting it. I'm sure you'll know exactly what I mean.

[jimarilyn]

1] neither of the Identikit images resemble Peter Alphon to my eyes, and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this.

Can you name the other two people in the world who think likewise ?

2] the police interviewed a number of persons other than Alphon and Hanratty regarding the A6 Case, and as their names were never released we don't know if Alphon was their 'original suspect'. He was, however, the first suspect whose name was made public.

And as Peter Woods, the BBC News Reporter, said on film "Bob Acott was convinced that Alphon was the man. No doubt in his mind at all." Woods had had 10 years experience on Fleet Street before joining the BBC and had never known the police to take the unprecedented step of actually naming a suspect and making it clear that he was the man they wanted in connection with the murder.

3] So what? Sheer coincidence. Could've been the Vienna or any one of a hundred cheap hotels around and about.

Sheer coincidence my foot (not Paul's incidentally) ! More like he'd been keeping tabs on Hanratty's movements. So why did he scarper away from that hotel and proceed to lay low at the Alexandra Court Hotel for the next five days while the heat was on ?. I bet the Alexandra charged more for B&B than the Vienna doss house.

4] only Juliana Galves claims to have seen black gloves; she could have been mistaken. Pure heresay evidence. How about the black gloves Louise Anderson said that Hanratty stole from her?

So Juliana is another unreliable witness to the Jimdiditites. There were only four employees at the Vienna anyway so who else were you expecting to see the black gloves ? What agenda would she have had in saying this ? Unlike Louise Anderson, who certainly had reason to bend over backwards to help the police in return for non-prosecution of her as a fence.

5] As Vic says, this was Alphon's way of life, to occupy a hotel room for as long as it suited him. He acted strangely because he was strange; he was, to put it bluntly, a nutter. He did not draw attention to himself, either; the person in the next room complained to the management of his odd behaviour.

He most certainly did draw attention to himself, whether wittingly or not by his bizarre behaviour. A man with something on his mind, he was avoiding face to face contact with other hotel guests and making himself as scarce as possible.

6] I should think 90% of the population had read a newspaper containing details of the A6 murder. Maybe Alphon had the Daily Express to study its racing pages. Pure coincidence.

Pure coincidence my Aunt Charlie ! Alphon must have guessed why Kilner and Dean came round to question him and he was very reluctant for them to look in his suitcase.

7] By whom was the person fitting Alphon's description spotted? (See 9 below)

By Elsie Cobb, her husband Stan and their next door neighbour Fred Newell.

8] Good God....straw-clutching.

No, not straw clutching at all, just a giveaway clue.

9] Did Michael Fogerty-Waul give his description of the Sidney Tafler lookalike before or after pictures of Alphon appeared in the newspapers? Or was a certain Belgian 'businessman' putting words into Mr F-W's mouth?

So Fogarty-Waul becomes another unreliable witness to the Jimdiditites. And what, pray, would Fogarty-Waul's agenda have been ? Fogarty-Waul, very shortly after the murder, reported his encounter with the Tafler lookalike which had occurred a week or so before the murder. Whether he mentioned to the police at that time of the resemblance to Tafler only the police could say. The police never acted on Fogarty-Waul's interview with them on the matter.

10] Alphon was very careful not to open his bank-account to Foot's inspection until such time after his bank could legally destroy the cashed cheques. Even Foot suggests that the money could have been gambling winnings, out-of-court settlements, whatever. Meaningless.

No, Paul Foot suggests no such thing about the unaccounted for five grand. He says that only a small fraction of this can be attributed to any Alphon wins on the dogs. Where does Paul Foot remotely suggest that the money could have come from out-of-court settlements ?

11] Alphon needed a new mac. He went and bought one. I bought one myself the other day.

So he needed a new mac just two days after the murder ? Why ? Was the other one blood stained ?

12] Meaningless. VS said the man was immaculately dressed. But it was dark, and perhaps for 'immaculate' read 'smart'.

Meaningless, that he had slept rough under Southend Pier on the same two nights that the murderer said he had slept rough ?? Alphon, 99% of the time stayed at hotels and B&B's. He just happened to choose the same two nights to sleep rough, outdoors ? Pull the other one, Graham.

13] VS said (to John Kerr) that the man had 'fairish brown hair'. When Scotland Yard issued their description of Alphon as a man they wished to interview, they described his hair as 'brushed back and flat'. I never quite connected this description of Alphon's hair with any description that VS gave of it.

I suggest you turn to pages 212 and 394 of Woffinden's book. Also VS denied that she told John Kerr that the killer had "light fair hair" (see page 182 of Woffinden's book) so you're mistaken there.

14] In the same police description as [13] above, Alphon was described as 'well-spoken, speaks like a Londoner in a quiet voice'. Just like his voice in the famous filmed Paris interview. If the police had meant 'Cockney', they'd have said 'Cockney'. Clutching at straws again here, I feel.

No, I'm definitely not clutching at straws. Anita Sims, [the wife of the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel] and Mary Perkins [who occupied the room next to Alphon] both described him as having a cockney accent.

15] Hardly any notorious murder since records began has passed without some nut or nuts confessing to it. Witness the Yorkshire Ripper. No Alphon 'confession' can be read without noting a certain elementary mistake, for example he said he fired only one shot at Gregsten.

As Steve mentioned in a very recent post, Alphon was ultra-careful not to make any public confession to the murder until well after the threat of hanging had been removed in 1965. He was also extra careful to safeguard himself against any future prosecution by including some details which could be shown to be untrue. (or could they ? mmm)

16] Violent streak? Who says? Did he have a police record for violence? Hanratty admitted to taking a whack at the two Blackpool villains who accosted him not long before his arrest.

He showed his violent tendencies when attacking Mary Hanratty (there were bystanders who witnessed the attack). Another illustration of this propensity for violence was witnessed by Jean Justice et al. See page 324 of Woffinden's book if you doubt my word.
Incidentally, are you referring here to the two Liverpool men who accosted Hanratty on the July 26th, almost 3 months before his arrest ?

17] I know the Slough area quite well too. Does that make me a suspect for the A6 Murder? I hope not, 'cos I'm planning to go out tomorrow night.

You're being rather silly now, Graham.

18] Good God....

Yes, GOD is very good.

[jimarilyn]

PS: Jim, in case of any future confusion, I really did write the above post, rather than quoting it. I'm sure you'll know exactly what I mean.

No, not really. All that does is cause further confusion for posters as they have to go back and forth between your post and my original post to understand fully what was being argued in my 18 points.

I can only assume that you're referring to the very time consuming and tiring aspect of multi quoting a post which Victor seems to thrive on.

[Victor]

Can you name the other two people in the world who think likewise ?

Graham, Mrs France and myself make 3.

Sheer coincidence my foot (not Paul's incidentally) ! More like he'd been keeping tabs on Hanratty's movements. So why did he scarper away from that hotel and proceed to lay low at the Alexandra Court Hotel for the next five days while the heat was on ?. I bet the Alexandra charged more for B&B than the Vienna doss house.

How would Alphon know where Hanratty was staying? He was sent to the Vienna so it wasn't pre-arranged.

So Juliana is another unreliable witness to the Jimdiditites.

I think her alibi for Alphon is great.

He most certainly did draw attention to himself, whether wittingly or not by his bizarre behaviour. A man with something on his mind, he was avoiding face to face contact with other hotel guests and making himself as scarce as possible.

He was a loner, that's not particularly unusual.

Pure coincidence my Aunt Charlie ! Alphon must have guessed why Kilner and Dean came round to question him and he was very reluctant for them to look in his suitcase.

So they wouldn't see his dirty underwear, I'd be relucant for people to see mine too.

So Fogarty-Waul becomes another unreliable witness to the Jimdiditites. And what, pray, would Fogarty-Waul's agenda have been ? Fogarty-Waul, very shortly after the murder, reported his encounter with the Tafler lookalike which had occurred a week or so before the murder. Whether he mentioned to the police at that time of the resemblance to Tafler only the police could say. The police never acted on Fogarty-Waul's interview with them on the matter.

It was one of a large number of "suspicious sightings" reported, Woffinden quotes dozens of them and most are irrelevent. F-W's agenda, publicity, same as Alphon's.

No, Paul Foot suggests no such thing about the unaccounted for five grand. He says that only a small fraction of this can be attributed to any Alphon wins on the dogs. Where does Paul Foot remotely suggest that the money could have come from out-of-court settlements ?

Foot says a grand or so did come from settlements, and who says Alphon only gambled on dogs?

So he needed a new mac just two days after the murder ? Why ? Was the other one blood stained ?

Like Hanratty's - why do you keep resorting to hypocrisy to score points?

Meaningless, that he had slept rough under Southend Pier on the same two nights that the murderer said he had slept rough ?? Alphon, 99% of the time stayed at hotels and B&B's. He just happened to choose the same two nights to sleep rough, outdoors ? Pull the other one, Graham.

More hypocrisy. "Call me Jim"

No, I'm definitely not clutching at straws. Anita Sims, [the wife of the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel] and Mary Perkins [who occupied the room next to Alphon] both described him as having a cockney accent.

He certainly doesn't sound cockney on the interview lolling all over that bed.

As Steve mentioned in a very recent post, Alphon was ultra-careful not to make any public confession to the murder until well after the threat of hanging had been removed in 1965. He was also extra careful to safeguard himself against any future prosecution by including some details which could be shown to be untrue. (or could they ? mmm)

If I was making a false confession I'd wait until I couldn't be hanged for it too. One of the Hansard quotes mentions several other confessions to the A6 murder. And how do you tell the difference between an error because he didn't know the details and a deliberate mistake?

He showed his violent tendencies when attacking Mary Hanratty (there were bystanders who witnessed the attack). Another illustration of this propensity for violence was witnessed by Jean Justice et al. See page 324 of Woffinden's book if you doubt my word.

Do you mean the bit that starts "He [Justice] still hoped to provoke him [Alphon] into a more obvious indiscretion and as such tried to put him under emotional duress."? That sounds like Justice started the fight to me.

Yes, GOD is very good.

I think Richard Dawkins (the one true god) is great too.

I can only assume that you're referring to the very time consuming and tiring aspect of multi quoting a post which Victor seems to thrive on.

Aw didums. It's easy if you use the "speech bubble" icon and the "Preview Post" button.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Couple of points:

1] VS said that the man claimed to have slept rough for two nights, but she also said he was 'immaculately dressed'. Alphon could not really be described as 'immaculately dressed' at the best of times. But Hanratty was very careful about his appearance and the quality of his clothes.

2] If you want to know what a cockney accent sounds like, listen to somebody like Ian Wright. Alphon's accent was southern counties, not at all cockney - in fact, as I said earlier, he was described by the police as 'well-spoken'. If they'd meant cockney, they'd have said cockney.

3] Regarding confessions, for example the police in the Yorkshire Ripper investigation were plagued with false confessions. The most notorious was John Humble of Sunderland, who I believe went down for perverting the course of justice. Alphon's "confessions" were meaningless.

4] As Victor points out, Charlotte France actually remarked to Hanratty that the Identikit looked like him. I bet that made him sit up.

Graham

[SteveS]

... What about Hanratty stealing Louise Anderson's black gloves?...

What about it Victor?

Jean Justice was passionate about this case and about proving Hanratty innocent to the point of getting himself institutionalised, not an unbiased independent source.

Jean Justice did not voluntarily place himself in Klinickhoff. He tells the story that every one can read in his book, if one is at all bothered to find out the truth of the matter.

Show us an unbiased independent source of information in this case that we can debate then mate! You keep going on about biased views, invariably when they are contrary to yours.

[Limehouse]

Graham, Mrs France and myself make 3.


It was one of a large number of "suspicious sightings" reported, Woffinden quotes dozens of them and most are irrelevent. F-W's agenda, publicity, same as Alphon's.

KR,
Vic.

So, Louise Anderson, who had everything to gain (for example, not being prosecuted for handling stolen goods) by testifying against Hanratty, can make unsubstantiated claims about having a pair of black gloves go missing and unsubstantiated claims about Hanratty having had 'a scratched face the last time she saw him' and you, Victor, accept her testimony unquestionably, but Mr FW is an 'unreliable witness' who was seeking publicity. What on earth for? And couldn't the same be said of the men who claim they saw Hanratty driving the car oin the morning it was abandoned? Couldn't they have been seeking publicity too?

[Limehouse]

Couple of points:

1] VS said that the man claimed to have slept rough for two nights, but she also said he was 'immaculately dressed'. Alphon could not really be described as 'immaculately dressed' at the best of times. But Hanratty was very careful about his appearance and the quality of his clothes.

2] If you want to know what a cockney accent sounds like, listen to somebody like Ian Wright. Alphon's accent was southern counties, not at all cockney - in fact, as I said earlier, he was described by the police as 'well-spoken'. If they'd meant cockney, they'd have said cockney.

3] Regarding confessions, for example the police in the Yorkshire Ripper investigation were plagued with false confessions. The most notorious was John Humble of Sunderland, who I believe went down for perverting the course of justice. Alphon's "confessions" were meaningless.

4] As Victor points out, Charlotte France actually remarked to Hanratty that the Identikit looked like him. I bet that made him sit up.

Graham

Fair enough on most points Graham, but on point two I think that the strength of an accent can be relevant to the person listening to it. For example, wasn't Valerie 'well-spoken' herself? She lived just outside London, whereas Alphon definitely lived inside the metropolis, so, although relatively well-spoken to some ears, couldn't he have sounded 'like a cockney' to her?

I say that because, to my family, who all still live in east London, I sound 'posh'. However, to most of my colleagues, I definitely sound like a Londoner.

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

to me, as a Midlander, VS's accent is definitely London - not within the sound of Bow Bells maybe, but definitely London. To my ear, Alphon's accent is similar - but absolutely not cockney.

Graham

[Graham]

I came across this when looking on the Libertarian Alliance website for some information nothing to do with the A6 Case. Not earth-shattering stuff, but nevertheless interesting as it's posted on a website concerned with civil liberties:

30 In his autobiography Forty Years Of Murder, the distinguished pathologist Keith Simpson pointed out that after the first serious suspect, Peter Alphon, surrendered himself to the police, they wanted to organise an ID parade at once, on September 22, but Dr Rennie at Guy's Hospital was in the process of removing two bullets from Miss Storie's body and only allowed the parade two days later. Valerie Storie studied the parade for five minutes before picking out a Spanish sailor. Detective Chief Superintendent Basil (Bob) Acott who headed the investigation was clearly shocked when Storie failed to identify Alphon, but to his credit instead of fitting him up for the murder he went back over the evidence and eliminated him from the inquiry. Alphon was later to make a tidy sum of money first by selling his story to the Daily Express for a thousand pounds, and then by repeatedly confessing to the murder - safe in the knowledge that he was in the clear - and implicating other people in a fanciful conspiracy, spurned on by Jean Justice, a failed lawyer with a grudge against the criminal justice system.

31 Who Killed Hanratty? An Investigation Into the Notorious A6 Murder, by Paul Foot, published by Penguin, London, (1988), page 151. It should be noted that Foot, the Oxford-educated former editor of Socialist Worker, is not the most reliable of observers, due primarily to his ruthless subjugation of truth to ideology. Nevertheless, Langdale's lenient treatment by the authorities is curious, to say the least.

32 In May 2002, the Court of Appeal upheld Hanratty's conviction; it had been referred by the Criminal Cases Review Commission in the light of developments in DNA technology. Hanratty's body was exhumed and it was found that there was a perfect match between his DNA and that of the man who raped Valerie Storie, i.e. the A6 murderer. In dismissing the appeal, the Court stated that the new DNA evidence "made what was a strong case even stronger".

Graham

[Victor]

So, Louise Anderson, who had everything to gain (for example, not being prosecuted for handling stolen goods) by testifying against Hanratty, can make unsubstantiated claims about having a pair of black gloves go missing and unsubstantiated claims about Hanratty having had 'a scratched face the last time she saw him' and you, Victor, accept her testimony unquestionably,

Hi Julie,

Absolutely not, there are valid reasons to question Louise Anderson's testimony, however, if the other evidence (DNA evidence in particular) is taken into consideration then there are no contradictions with Anderson, therefore her testimony may be completely genuine - as may Langdale's. However, it is only by working backwards from the conclusion (Hanratty was guilty) that the suspicions about their testimonies are eliminated, I completely agree that without that corroboration they are suspect. Of course "suspect" doesn't mean definitely wrong.

Of course, Grace Jones' testimony has the same problems as Anderson - immunity from prosecution.

but Mr FW is an 'unreliable witness' who was seeking publicity. What on earth for?

I can't recall saying FW was an "unreliable witness" merely one of a large number many of which are irrelevent.

Maybe he wanted to meet John Lennon, who knows? I just suggested it as a possibility in response to James' question.

And couldn't the same be said of the men who claim they saw Hanratty driving the car oin the morning it was abandoned? Couldn't they have been seeking publicity too?

They could have been, but Blackhall and Skillett had the additional corroboration of the 3 stripes on the rear of the car, and were not involved in publicity-seeking events on Speaker's corner, &tc.

Jean Justice did not voluntarily place himself in Klinickhoff. He tells the story that every one can read in his book, if one is at all bothered to find out the truth of the matter.

He got himself institutionalised, I said that in the section of my post you quoted. What's your point? Mine is that he was clearly straining his mental faculties, therefore some of what he says may be delusional and therefore suspect.

Show us an unbiased independent source of information in this case that we can debate then mate! You keep going on about biased views, invariably when they are contrary to yours.

I trust the appeal judgment, you don't because they're part of "the establishment", what qualifies as independent and unbiased for you?

You only have to read the comments about Foot in point 31 of Graham's post above to doubt Foot's reliability and integrity.

KR,
Vic

[caz]

Hi All,

One thing that puzzles me is why a corrupt "establishment", hell-bent on protecting its magnificent reputation (and yes I'm being sarcastic here), would have been compelled to go to all the trouble and expense, not to mention risk, of exhuming Hanratty's body, knowing him to be an innocent victim of a miscarriage of justice, and knowing they'd need to recruit a new band of trusted conspirators in order to get the DNA results faked and the appeal fixed.

Was there no easier way to keep the troublemakers at bay and Hanratty where they wanted him?

It makes me wonder at what point would all this conspiracy stuff ever topple over into the utterly implausible category for those who entertain the possibility that Hanratty didn't do it or that Alphon did.

Another point is that if a guilty Alphon had been willing and able to prove his guilt at any time, or had gone on to commit other similar crimes for instance, there would have been nothing the "establishment" could have done about it. They had control over Hanratty when they hanged and buried him. Not so Alphon.

So why did they allow Hanratty to be dug up again?

Love,

Caz
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