a6 murder

[Graham]

Hi Vic,

as I recall after JH had changed his alibi and given his defence his 'memories' of the Rhyl guest-house, Kleinmann and a local investigator toured the Rhyl boarding-houses until they found one that (more or less) matched JH's description - this being Ingledene. Mrs Jones said she could remember a young man who stayed there for 2 nights. I believe the cardinal mistake was made of showing her just one photo - that of Hanratty - which she said she recognised. (The same mistake was made - by the police - at the Liverpool sweet-shop).

As the defence by then were clutching at straws the discovery of Ingledene and Mrs Jones was very definitely worth a try, but the impression I've always had is that Sherrard never gave it a cat's chance in hell.

Cheers,

Graham

[Victor]

Hi Graham,

The investigator was Gillbanks wasn't it? I think it's quite telling that the specific question that would give more weight to the Rhyl testimony remains unanswered, did Hanratty ever positively identify Grace Jones and Ingledene, or Olive Dinwoodie and possibly Barbara Ford too? I can certainly see why Hanratty wouldn't want to nail his colours to any specific hope, because if it didn't pan out then it's more difficult to say he was mistaken about the specific place and person, but the tale still holds.

I think the Mrs Jones was called to give evidence after Hanratty had completed his evidence, so was he recalled and asked to identify Mrs Jones? Olive Dinwoodie and Barbara Ford were known about prior to the trial, so he could have been asked to identify them during his original evidence.

KR,
Vic.

[Tony]

Green Baths? Lucky to see one around here.

Well lads I’m not like you Southern Softies with all the comforts you have had for decades that we haven’t.

In the late 50’s and early 60’s when we went away for our holidays there were usually 3 choices: Blackpool, Rhyl or Skegness. Most people went for days out to Blackpool so it was a toss up between Rhyl and Skeggie.

I went, with my parents, to Rhyl year after year stopping in different boarding houses each year. I don’t know if we ever upset the landladies but it was definitely a different one every year.
Now I never saw a green bath. In fact I didn’t know that such a thing existed. Most of the houses where I lived had a galvanised tin bath hanging on the front of the shed door and it was only used on a Friday night and all the family took turns. It was in the front room in front of the fire. Doors were never locked and sometimes a neighbour would just call round for a chat; all very embarrassing.
Anyway that’s how it was.

When we went to Rhyl it was a treat to have a bath in a cast iron fixed bath in a bathroom. Invariably they were white.
You had to put your name down on the bathing rota and when your time came you were allowed a bath for no more than half an hour. You had to run the hot tap and the cold tap at the same rate and you had not to fill the bath for more than 8 inches.
I can’t ever recall the landlady ever coming in to check the depth but maybe I was lucky.
It was always the landlady in charge; her husband had nothing to do with the holidaymakers.

Everybody up here went on holiday like that. Last week I asked my mates if any of them had been on holiday in Rhyl. They all had but not one of them had ever seen a green bath.

When Hanratty extended his alibi from Liverpool and introduced Rhyl and said he stopped in a boarding house with a green bath in an attic room he must have either been some sort of mystic or he had indeed been there. For my money I would not have expected anyone to find a green bath in an attic but they did.

In fact I’ll bet that when Gillbanks and Evans were sent to Rhyl to knock on doors asking if there was a green bath in the attic they would have thought: “What a waste of time we’ll never find one". But they did and the landlady confirmed to them exactly what Hanratty had told Sherrard.

I wonder if they found any earlier or later green baths during their enquiries.
I doubt it very much.

Tony.

By the way Vic didn’t Hanratty experience a heavy nose bleed when Mrs Jones entered the court something his mother said always happened to him when he got excited.
Did the gunman’s nose bleed in the car?

[Limehouse]

Hi Tony,

Were they still calling holidays Wakes Weeks up there in the north when you were a nipper?

I did not see a green bath until the 1970s when that strange avacado colour becasme popular in 'posh' houses. I remember a few boarding house holidays on the Norfolki and Essex coasts in the 1960s and baths were invariably white. The only variation I saw was pink.

I don't see how Hanratty could have made up the green bath or how it could have been suggested to him without someone having knowledge of it - and then for what reason? I mean, why would anyone at the trial want to speak up for a man who could easily have broken into their homes and stolen their most treasured possessions? More to the point, why speak up for a man who could have raped and shot your daughter or sister, leaving her for dead after shooting and killing her boyfrined? Anyone testifying in Hanratty's defence must have been more than half convinced that they had seen him before under the circumstances he described or why would they bother?

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

Were they still calling holidays Wakes Weeks up there in the north when you were a nipper?

I did not see a green bath until the 1970s when that strange avacado colour becasme popular in 'posh' houses. I remember a few boarding house holidays on the Norfolki and Essex coasts in the 1960s and baths were invariably white. The only variation I saw was pink.

I don't see how Hanratty could have made up the green bath or how it could have been suggested to him without someone having knowledge of it - and then for what reason? I mean, why would anyone at the trial want to speak up for a man who could easily have broken into their homes and stolen their most treasured possessions? More to the point, why speak up for a man who could have raped and shot your daughter or sister, leaving her for dead after shooting and killing her boyfrined? Anyone testifying in Hanratty's defence must have been more than half convinced that they had seen him before under the circumstances he described or why would they bother?

Hello Julie,

I hope you are keeping well.
It might surprise you to know that we still have Wakes Weeks up here in’t North.

Since writing that bit about the green bath I’ve just phoned my cousin who is a retired plumber.

I asked him when he started work and he said in 1958. I asked him if he fitted many coloured baths and he said he hadn’t personally during those years but he had been in houses that had coloured baths and he even mentioned a green bath. But it was in a very posh house and not at all the norm.

When he asked me why I was asking I told him about this case and said the man on trial thought things were going really bad for him in court so he decided to say where he had stayed; that was Rhyl but the only definite thing he could remember was a green bath in the boarding house at which he stayed.

I asked him what the chances would be of that and he said he had been to Rhyl many times on holiday and he had not seen a green bath and if he had been on trial that was the last thing he would have made up if he was guilty.
There would have been a good chance that nobody would have found any boarding house with a green bath.

It would be really interesting to know where the green bath came from and how many were knocking about Rhyl at that time.

Tony.

[RonIpstone]

It would be really interesting to know where the green bath came from and how many were knocking about Rhyl at that time.

Tony.

What would be more interesting to know is that if Hanratty slept in a room with a green bath why he never mentioned it.

The door on the flat in Liverpool was green and the plant in the hall of his Rhyl guesthouse was 'a green plant'. The flat in Liverpool did not exist, and if Ingeldene had been Hanratty's guesthouse, there was a vase with flowers not a green plant.

The fact is that Ingeldene had no room for Hanratty unless he slept in a room with a bath, but not any old bath, a green bath. If in the 1960's green baths had been the rarity they are now said to have been, then it is all the more remarkable that Hanratty omitted to mention that his particular bedroom possessed such a rare and coveted item.

[Graham]

Not that I can really add much to the Green Bath Debate, but in the 1950's when my parents had a purpose-built bathroom fitted, our bath was light blue! By the way, Tony, I ain't a 'soft southerner', either!

I still maintain that had Hanratty stuck to his Liverpool Alibi, he'd have had much more credibility as far as the jury was concerned. Big mistake when he changed it to Rhyl, and Sherrard knew it. In my opinion the only way he could prove he was at Rhyl was for the defence to produce genuinely concrete evidence, like his name in a visitor's book.

With that, I'm off to relax in our modern white bath!

Cheers,

Graham

[Tony]

What would be more interesting to know is that if Hanratty slept in a room with a green bath why he never mentioned it.

The door on the flat in Liverpool was green and the plant in the hall of his Rhyl guesthouse was 'a green plant'. The flat in Liverpool did not exist, and if Ingeldene had been Hanratty's guesthouse, there was a vase with flowers not a green plant.

The fact is that Ingeldene had no room for Hanratty unless he slept in a room with a bath, but not any old bath, a green bath. If in the 1960's green baths had been the rarity they are now said to have been, then it is all the more remarkable that Hanratty omitted to mention that his particular bedroom possessed such a rare and coveted item.

Hello Ron,

If Hanratty never mentioned a green bath then why were Gillbanks and Evans knocking on boarding house doors asking if there was a green bath inside?


Tony.

[Graham]

Hi Tony,

Hanratty said that he'd 'seen an attic room in which there was a green bath'; he never said that he'd actually slept in this room. I have a vague feeling that Paul Foot is partly responsible for this confusion.

Cheers,

Graham

[caz]

...the man on trial thought things were going really bad for him in court so he decided to say where he had stayed; that was Rhyl but the only definite thing he could remember was a green bath in the boarding house at which he stayed.

...that was the last thing he would have made up if he was guilty.
There would have been a good chance that nobody would have found any boarding house with a green bath.

Hi Tony,

Can you not see for yourself how this can be turned right on its head?

Why in God's name would an innocent man facing death by hanging have only decided to mention his stay in Rhyl, and this virtually unique green bath that he saw there, when things were going really bad for him in court? That makes absolutely no sense.

It would have been the first thing he would have mentioned in his defence if he had been innocent - particularly if he could have given more innocent reasons for being in Rhyl than his original Liverpool alibi suggested.

Love,

Caz
X

[RonIpstone]

Not that I can really add much to the Green Bath Debate, but in the 1950's when my parents had a purpose-built bathroom fitted, our bath was light blue! By the way, Tony, I ain't a 'soft southerner', either!

According to the link given below, coloured bathroom suites attracted a luxury tax of 70% in the years immediately following World War II. This was abolished in the 1950's and resulted in the increased popularity of green and light blue bathrooms.
http://www.dcolesupplies.com/about.php

[RonIpstone]

Hello Ron,

If Hanratty never mentioned a green bath then why were Gillbanks and Evans knocking on boarding house doors asking if there was a green bath inside?


Tony.

Hello Tony,

Hanratty did mention a green bath, describing it as being in the attic or the top part of the house. He also described his room as being at the back having a window with curtains. He did not say that he slept in a room with a green bath.

All the other rooms at Ingeldene were occupied on the night of the 22 August 1961, the mystery guest that Mrs Jones believes stayed that night must have been accommodated in the attic room with a green bath. This room had no window with curtains, only a skylight, it cannot have been the room described by Hanratty.

Hanratty's failure to mention the fact that there was a green bath in the room in which he slept is fatal to any claim that he stayed at Ingeldene. Hanratty could recall the green plant in the hallway, yet forgot about the green bath in his bedroom? Come off it.

Ron

[Graham]

According to the link given below, coloured bathroom suites attracted a luxury tax of 70% in the years immediately following World War II. This was abolished in the 1950's and resulted in the increased popularity of green and light blue bathrooms.
http://www.dcolesupplies.com/about.php

Hi Ron,

trust my old man to wait until he could get a blue bath cheaper!

Cheers,

Graham

[Victor]

Surely if "green baths" were very rare, and the Ingledene indisputably had one, then this would be a talking point about the Ingledene, something widely known about. Then the rarer it is, the more of a talking point it is, and therefore the more likely Hanratty had heard all the gossip on his previous visit to Rhyl (the Terry Evans shoe theft occasion) about the guest house with the strange green bath in the attic. Although poor "learning difficulties" Hanratty couldn't remember the name of the guest house.

KR,
Vic.

[Stewart P Evans]

Tsk

...
Why in God's name would an innocent man facing death by hanging have only decided to mention his stay in Rhyl, and this virtually unique green bath that he saw there, when things were going really bad for him in court?
...
Caz
X

Tsk, tsk Caz, 'virtually unique' - sorry but there's no such thing, something is either unique, or it isn't. However, I do agree with your point.