a6 murder

[Victor]

That's hardly surprising considering that Hanratty sat down to breakfast with Mrs Jones and her daughter Brenda in their own living room, due to the dining room being full up.

That was only the one night wasn't it? If he was transferred to a normal room for the 2nd night, then there's no reason why there wouldn't be room for him in the dining room for his breakfast Thursday morning.

Hanratty never supplied the details about staying in the bathroom and eating in the private dining room, they were wild speculations by Foot, for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Hanratty never supplied the details about staying in the bathroom and eating in the private dining room, they were wild speculations by Foot, for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

KR,
Vic.

Wild speculations by Paul Foot ??? For your information it was Brenda Harris who confirmed that Hanratty shared breakfast with them.
So you're saying Mrs Jones's daughter was deliberately lying on camera when she spoke of Hanratty having breakfast with them in their own living room ?

[Limehouse]

Graham,

Professor Fry was speaking about Hanratty's pronunciation of words, not his accent. He was obviously referring to Hanratty's tendency to pronounce "th" as an "f" ( eg. fings, fink, free, firty and so on) which was "shared by very many thousands of Londoners".

I never said Hanratty had an Irish, Scottish or Welsh accent, Graham.
Nudds, who conversed with Hanratty on the morning of August 22nd, before he left for Liverpool, stated ...."whereas Ryan had an accent, possibly Irish, Durrant had no accent and was better spoken" (see page 68 of St. Robert's book). So to Nudds's ear at least [and Nudds himself was a native Londoner] Hanratty had an accent which was somewhat different to his own, and which suggested to him that he might be Irish. To another ear in the North West of England he might sound a bit Scottish.

On the contrary, the Liverpool/Real alibi becomes stronger and stronger and is reinforced by the testimony of Mrs Dinwoodie, Barbara Ford, Robert Kempt, Grace Jones, Brenda Harris, Margaret Walker, Betty Davies, Ivy Vincent, Christopher Larman and Trevor Dutton, to mention just ten people. All respectable and upright citizens with no ulterior motives or axes to grind.

It obviously strengthens Haratty's claim that he was in Liverpool if the witness he claims to have spoken to particularly remembers that the man she spoke to did not have a local accent.

Additionally, as Jim points out, Hanratty had grown up listening to an Irish accent and as he was claiming to be called Ryan, it is not impossible to believe that he was attempting to [I]sound[I] Irish and not quite managing it fully, thus the confusion.

[Limehouse]

That was only the one night wasn't it? If he was transferred to a normal room for the 2nd night, then there's no reason why there wouldn't be room for him in the dining room for his breakfast Thursday morning.

Hanratty never supplied the details about staying in the bathroom and eating in the private dining room, they were wild speculations by Foot, for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

KR,
Vic.

The details about the green bath came from Hanratty. He explained what he could remember from the guest house and he stated he could remember a green bath at the top of the house. This was confirmed by Mrs Jones under examination in the witness box when she admitted there was a bathroom with a double bed in that was sometimes occupied by members of the family who gave over their own rooms to guests during busy times.

How could Foot make things up that were actually raised at the trial?

[RonIpstone]

How could Foot make things up that were actually raised at the trial?

Hello Julie,

The biggest problem which I have with Hanratty's seaside alibi at Ingledene is that when Hanratty changed tack from his exclusively Liverpool alibi to one of Liverpool/Rhyl, he gave certain particulars as his accommodation at Rhyl. I believe that he gave his evidence in chief and in cross-examination before Mrs Jones of Ingledene fame had been located. He mentioned, among other things, that there was a room with a green bath in the top part of the house, which may or may not have been the attic. Yet he did not mention in court, so far as I am aware, that this was the room which he had been allocated by the landlady.

If Hanratty had been given a bathroom as a bedroom, one would have expected him to remark upon this fact. But he did not. He mentioned the room with the green bath, but not the fact that it had a bed nor that this was the bed upon which he slept.

We have to go forward to 1967 when Brenda Harris (daughter of Mrs Jones) made statements to DCSI Nimmo, in the second of which she stated that (1) all normal rooms had been booked by guests for the week of 19th to 26th August and (2) the person whom she believed to be Hanratty had been given the attic room which had a green bath and a bed and (3) that he ate his breakfasts in the family's general room at the rear of the property.

But the notes taken by Hanratty's solicitor of what his client said and the evidence given by Hanratty at his trial does not square with any of this.

[SteveS]

Mrs Brenda Harris who ran Ingledene with her mother Mrs Grace Jones states categorically and emphatically that it was Hanratty who stayed there for 2 nights and ate breakfast in the Jones' own private living area on the morning of the 23rd 1961 thus eliminating him as the A6 murderer.

(from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UlScGo6piU)

Hanratty himself remembers eating breakfast in a back room when he says "In the morning I looked out of the window and found a small courtyard. that is at the back."

Mrs Harris says that Hanratty was the only guest who took breakfast in their own living room that season.

As Hanratty was not seen by other guests he must of taken breakfast in the Jones' own living room on both mornings of his stay at Ingledene.

I believe Mrs Harris is telling the truth and therefore I believe Hanratty is not the A6 killer.

Therefore I believe the DNA evidence is wrong.

[Graham]

Right then. If Mrs Harris really is telling the truth, then that's the end of this thread, eh? Nice while it lasted.

Oh, and Steve...one small point....it's not "must of", but "must have".

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Oh, and Steve...one small point....it's not "must of", but "must have".

Graham

Let him who is without sin throweth the first stone. Just another small point here Graham, but you've done a very similar thing yourself.......(Simon pointed this out originally)

Hi Caz,

But we don't know that Hanratty forced himself on Carole France. He may well of done, but there is no direct evidence to suggest that he did. Highly sexed he may have been, but by his own admission he visited prostitutes on a regular basis (and one prostitute in particular, or so I recall). He had no previous record of sexual violence against women (mind, he had no previous record of violent crime of any sort).

[Graham]

[QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Hi Caz,

But we don't know that Hanratty forced himself on Carole France. He may well of done, but there is no direct evidence to suggest that he did. Highly sexed he may have been, but by his own admission he visited prostitutes on a regular basis (and one prostitute in particular, or so I recall). He had no previous record of sexual violence against women (mind, he had no previous record of violent crime of any sort).

[/QUOTE

Not posted by me, mate. My English is perfect, innit?

Graham

[RonIpstone]

Mrs Brenda Harris who ran Ingledene with her mother Mrs Grace Jones states categorically and emphatically that it was Hanratty who stayed there for 2 nights and ate breakfast in the Jones' own private living area on the morning of the 23rd 1961 thus eliminating him as the A6 murderer.

(from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UlScGo6piU)

Hanratty himself remembers eating breakfast in a back room when he says "In the morning I looked out of the window and found a small courtyard. that is at the back."

Mrs Harris says that Hanratty was the only guest who took breakfast in their own living room that season.

As Hanratty was not seen by other guests he must of taken breakfast in the Jones' own living room on both mornings of his stay at Ingledene.

I believe Mrs Harris is telling the truth and therefore I believe Hanratty is not the A6 killer.

Therefore I believe the DNA evidence is wrong.

Hello Steve,

The descriptions which Hanratty gave of his accommodation in Rhyl were vague. So far as I am aware, he never said he slept in a room with a green bath, nor at any stage did he mention that he was kept separate from the other guests and dined in the Joneses family's private room.

The instance you quote of Hanratty saying he had breakfast in a back room, is not entirely borne out by the Hanratty quote. He does not say he noticed the courtyard while eating breakfast in a back room, rather that in the morning he noticed a courtyard. Presumably he could not have noticed the courtyard the previous evening as it was dark when he allegedly arrived at his guesthouse, whereas in the morning it would be light and a view of the courtyard would be afforded by the window in his room which he says had curtains.

If Hanratty had said that he slept on a bed in a bathroom with a green bath in the attic and in the morning he dined alone in the private room of the Joneses, then that would be something approaching an alibi subtantiated by Jones and Harris.

Mrs Jones and Mrs Harris may indeed be telling the truth in stating their belief as to who slept where and when, in much the same manner as Miss Storie was telling the truth when she stated her belief that it was Hanratty who raped her. But Hanratty's failure to state the fact that he slept in a room with a bath, coupled with the general vagueness of the description of the guesthouse, sinks his alibi. Mrs Jones's and Mrs Harris's belief is wrong and whoever (if anyone at all) slept in the room with the green bath on 22 August 1961, it was not James Hanratty.

Ron

[Victor]

The details about the green bath came from Hanratty. He explained what he could remember from the guest house and he stated he could remember a green bath at the top of the house. This was confirmed by Mrs Jones under examination in the witness box when she admitted there was a bathroom with a double bed in that was sometimes occupied by members of the family who gave over their own rooms to guests during busy times.

Hi Julie,

As Ron has pointed out, the details Hanratty gave of the guest house are patchy and lacking any conclusive detail, for example, Hanratty never stated that he slept in the bathroom at the top of the hosue with the green bath, or that he slept in different rooms on each night. These details arose from the cross-examination where Swanwick discovered that the attic room was the only one with space for the first night.

How could Foot make things up that were actually raised at the trial?

Foot took the information from all sources, and tried to force the square peg into a round hole, discarding what didn't fit, and adding in speculative things like...Hanratty never said he slept in the attic room with the bath, but how would he have know about it if he hadn't?

KR,
Vic.

[RonIpstone]

Foot took the information from all sources, and tried to force the square peg into a round hole, discarding what didn't fit, and adding in speculative things like...Hanratty never said he slept in the attic room with the bath, but how would he have known about it if he hadn't?

Hi Vic,

The obvious answer to Foot's question is that Hanratty did not know about the green bath in Ingledene's attic but had rightly guessed that in a seaside town the size of Rhyl there would be some guesthouses that had bathrooms in either the attic or the top part of the house. To add verisimilitude to his description he chanced on some of these baths being green, in much the same way as he described the non-existent flat in Liverpool as having a green door and the adornment in the hallway of his guesthouse as being a 'green plant'.

Hanratty's evidence in chief was specific in that he had a back room which had curtains that he chose not to draw, whereas it seems that the green bath was in the attic which only had a skylight. Hanratty made no mention of having to change rooms after one night, nor that he had to have his breakfasts away from other guests for both mornings.

Bob Woffinden has it that Hanratty slept in the attic bathroom for the first night and had his breakfast the following morning in the private rooms, then a family left which freed up a regular room into which Hanratty was moved, but as he had previously had his brekky in the private room he continued this practice for the second morning. Mrs Harris, on the other hand, is quite clear that Hanratty was the guest who occupied the attic room for two nights as Ingledene was fully occupied for the week of the 19th to 26th August 1961. Hanratty was oblivious to the fact he was put up in a bathroom with no proper window for either one night or two nights, and is content to describe his room as a back room with curtains, and his only complaint, if it be a complaint, was that he could hear trains shunting in the night. In the morning he could not see the trains, but one would assume that he would be able to have seen what was at the rear of his guesthouse (i.e. a courtyard).

Foot takes the view that Hanratty was taking a chance with the description of the courtyard when replying to Swanwick's questions, but there was little else he could have said having admitted that he had looked out of his window and not seen the trains. He must then have seen what was at the back of the 'guesthouse' , he had to give some description.

Hanratty had visited Rhyl previously, and he may have stayed at guesthouse, or at least looked for accommodation in one. He would have had a rough idea of the type of properties in Rhyl offering accomodation and their approximate location. Hanratty, as a gambling man, would have gone for the option which gave the best odds, and that was house without a front garden but with a rear courtyard near the station. Likewise he plumped for a typical seaside landlady, middle aged with grey hair.

Hanratty must have weighed his options, if a landlady could be found to verify the story then he had hit the jackpot, if not, then his legal team still had the argument that such a house and such a landlady existed but could not be found in the time available.

Ron

[P.L.A]

One of the main problems with the Rhyl alibi is that Hanratty didn’t provide any of the small details talked about by such people as Foot , Jones and Harris. It seems logical to me that a person with only prison walls to look at for a few months before execution would have been able to recall some of this detail if it had been true. He was unable to add to his vague description of Rhyl even when interviewed in the condemned cell both by Home Office officials and his defence team. He appears to have had no problem however, in remembering even which bed he slept in at the Vienna.

The jury at Bedford accepted the word of a victim who had every reason to try to remember as much as she could about her assailant – and recalled it shortly after the event.

On the other hand, when first being questioned, the people running the guest house were recalling events from six months previous which was their busiest time of the year. Moreover, there was no reason at the time for them to specifically register mentally what had happened, with the expectation of having to recall it later.

Earlier in 1961 we know that Hanratty travelled from Liverpool to Rhyl by bus, leaving the bus station and walking to the fairground. The bus station wasn’t far from Mrs. Jones’s B&B and the houses in that area are all very similar. It is possible that this journey through the streets of the seaside town gave him a general feel for the area.

Hanratty never claimed to have stayed at Ingledene. It is Mrs. Jones et al who said he had.

Peter

[RonIpstone]

It is interesting to see how Foot and Woffinden deal with the problems created for the Hanrattty defence by James Hanratty's failure to state that he slept in a room with a green bath.

Foot sets out Hanratty's evidence in some detail, but does not comment on this glaring omission. Woffinden just ignores Hanratty's evidence on this point.

If the mystery guest at Ingledene on the nights of 22nd and 23rd of August 1961 must have slept in a room with a green bath, no proper window but a skylight, we can say with a degree of certainty that the mystery guest was not James Hanratty, whose evidence was that he had a back room with undrawn curtains and no green bath, or at least not one which he noticed.

[Victor]

Did Hanratty ever say "It was the Ingledene"?

Hanratty never claimed to have stayed at Ingledene. It is Mrs. Jones et al who said he had.

Hi all,

Does anyone know if the above quote is absolutely true? In other words, after Hanratty had changed his alibi evidence at the trial and given his sketchy details, was he ever specifically asked if it was with Mrs Jones at the Ingledene that he stayed in August 1961? And did he confirm or deny it?

KR,
Vic.