a6 murder

[Victor]

If the cartridge cases could have been left in Room 24 on the night before the murder, then they could have been left there possibly days, weeks or months before the murder. Moreover could it have been safely assumed that the cartridges had been left by a resident who had been allocated Room 24? Might a guest from another room have had access to Room 24? Were there any male hotel workers with access to this room?

But Hanratty as the last occupant (other than the Indian) of this room before the discovery of the cartridge cases must have been the prime suspect not Alphon.

Hi Ron,

Thinking this through, the Indian gentleman slept in the double-bed on the other side of the room, therefore Hanratty is the last person to have used the bed next to the chair. Furthermore if the cases had been there beforehand then there's the risk that he could have disturbed and\or discovered them.

It has been mentioned several times that the cases were precariously balanced on top of the seat (whereas I think they may have become lodged between seat and chair back, because it was only when Crocker ripped a loose piece of material off the chair that one fell off and he noticed it) in which case it makes it more and more unlikely that the cases were left there by previous occupants.

Admittedly the basement room was accessible from the garden, and by hotel staff, noteably Nudds, so the cases could have been planted, but they were discovered before Hanratty was linked with the crime and Alphon had used the place (but a completely different room) as part of his alibi so planting them in that room to frame him makes no sense.

I agree with yourself and Graham that Acott&co heavily pressured Nudds into making his second statement to link the cases to the only suspect they had at the time, which was a big mistake as it prompted Alphon to later make his "confessions" to blacken the character of the police and drag them through the mud, where they belong.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Further on the height issue

From the Judgment, May 2002:
39. [I]At this stage, before continuing the chronology of the investigation, it is sensible to say something about James Hanratty and to provide a summary of evidence of his proved movements up to the time of his arrest. He was born on 4 October 1936 and was thus aged 24 at the time of the killing and 25 at the time of the trial. He was 5ft. 7in. to 5ft. 8in. in height

Hi Andrew,

Valerie Storie told John Kerr that her assailant was not much taller than herself and that she was a fraction under 5' 4" in height. It would be interesting to know what she based his height on as for the vast majority of the time her assailant was in the back of the car and she was in the front. Did she estimate the gunman's height while they were dragging Michael Gregsten's body from the car or did she estimate it from when the two were in the back of the car ?
If it was while they were outside the car it would be very revealing to know whether she wore high-heel shoes or not as this could add a couple of inches or more to her actual height.

When the police circulated their description of Peter Alphon in September 1961 they said he was "five feet nine or ten inches tall". This was later amended by Acott to five feet nine inches, so it would appear as though they measured his height while he was in police custody. This contrasts with what Mary Perkins said about Alphon. She occupied the room next to Alphon while both were staying at the Alexandra Court Hotel and she described him as "five feet six inches tall". Did Alphon often appear smaller than his actual five feet nine inches ? I ask this in light of Miss Perkin's description and also in light of Jean Justice's first impression of Alphon when they met for the first time in February 1962. On page 91 of his book "Murder vs Murder" Justice writes..."I saw him as a quiet, shy little man".

[Graham]

In the film of his famous Paris interview, while he was lolling on the bed eating that inept BBC reporter for breakfast, Alphon looked neither shy, quiet nor, I think, little. In Foot I read that Alphon was, according to his police description, 5' 10". He certainly towers over his ma in that photo of them hugging each other. No way was he 5' 6". I rather think that Justice's usage of the adjective 'little' was intended to be a patronishing description of his social, rather than his physical, stature, as in, "Oh, I have a little man who comes and mows my lawns".

Graham

[NickB]

In the Paris interview Alphon talks about what he claims to have done in a very cavalier way. Difficult to believe that Fox/Justice were convinced of Alphon’s guilt by his “anguish” about it. Perhaps Alphon put on a better act for them.

[Graham]

My opinion of Justice is that he was a very clever person from a privileged background who, for whatever reasons, had a huge axe to grind against the British Establishment of the day. I don't doubt that he had a genuine altruistic reason for his early interest in the A6 Case, but the feeling I have is that he ultimately used it for his own strange ends. Alphon was precisely the bloke he needed - almost God's gift. I mean, how many men would be prepared to 'confess' to a crime like the A6? If Justice genuinely believed in Alphon's guilt, then I would have to say that Alphon took him in, hook, line and sinker. But common-sense tells me that Justice wasn't taken in - he used Alphon as much as Alphon used him, and ultimately neither of them profited one jot by it. Fox, as I see it, was probably less willing to accept Alphon's story, but was putty in Justice's hands. It's often occurred to me what Paul Foot's genuine feelings were about Justice. Foot, as I've said on plenty of past occasions, was an absolutely committed person with regard to the various causes he embraced. Foot genuinely cared about miscarriages of the law and social injustice. Somehow, I just can't see Foot and Jean Justice actually getting along with each other...

But, when all's said and done, the 1960's was a world totally and utterly different to the one we know in the 21st century. A foreign country to most of us. I really wish I'd kept all my copies of Private Eye from those days.

Graham

[Victor]

I mean, how many men would be prepared to 'confess' to a crime like the A6?

How many people who'd been suspected, alibied, re-accused, publically named on TV, turned themselves into the police, interviewed/interrogated, put on several ID parades, released, immediately rearrested for another crime, released, and then still been subjected to accusations and suspicion?

I think he was entirely just in seeking whatever recompense he could get out of it, even if it was preying upon Justice's largesse.

If Justice genuinely believed in Alphon's guilt, then I would have to say that Alphon took him in, hook, line and sinker.

Absolutely.

Somehow, I just can't see Foot and Jean Justice actually getting along with each other...

Poles apart. But if alleged injustice can unite two diametrically opposed personalities like Justice and Foot, then there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to get on without devastating the life of one young woman and two young boys and their mother.

KR,
Vic.

[JIMBOW]

Connection between Jimmy Ryan and James Hanratty

Hello, haven't been on here for a while as I've been recovering from triple bypass surgery (no fun at all) but I must say that this forum continues to be as interesting as ever (fascinating, really).

Can anyone enlighten me on the following point which, despite my best efforts, I am still confused about:- Exactly what was it that caused the police to make the connection between the names 'Jimmy Ryan' and 'James Hanratty'? If the story about Janet Gregsten's intuitive 'spotting' of the 'wanted man' at the Swiss Cottage arcade is indeed correct, then this would have provided the link (staff at the florist's shop said that the man used the name 'J. Ryan' but asked for flowers to be sent to his mother, a Mrs. Hanratty in Kingsbury). However, did William Ewer not say that the Daily Sketch's report of this 'sighting' was well 'over the top' (and untrue/incorrect?).

If the link between the alias and the real name did not come from this 'sighting', could it have come from Charles France when he went to the police with the postcard from the Republic of Ireland. Did that postcard come with the name 'Ryan' (or 'Hanratty')? Did France know at this time what his friend's real name was? I have wrestled with the relevant pages of Foot's book but remain confused, to say the least!!

Jim

P.S. Did anybody notice Jimmy Ryan playing for Accrington Stanley against Fulham yesterday?

[Limehouse]

Morning Jimbow,

I hope you are bouncing back nicely from your surgery. It is a huge operation. My husband had a quadruple by-pass operation 6 years ago at Papworth hospital but has been fine ever since (excluding a motorcycle accident!!).

Recetnly I have also been thinking about the J Ryan/Hanratty connection and I think I may have a possible answer. Of course, it doesn't add up for people who suspect France may have had a hand in framing Hanratty.

Alarm bells must have started ringing when France heard that the gun had been found under the back seat of the bus soon after the murder/rape. His friend had told him, that was a good place to hide uneanted loot hadn't he??

However, not long after that, a description of the murderer was circulated and it did not fit his friend. Moreover, hadn't his friend sent him a postcard from Liverpool? Couldn't be him could it?

Later, chief suspect Alphon is eliminated. Also a revised description has been released. France knows his friend's main alias. He is shocked, horrified, terrified. He tells the police what he knows. He makes the connection between J Ryan and Hanratty.

[Graham]

I've had a suspicion for some time that, for whatever reason, JH gave the gun to France for disposal. I'm pretty sure that even at that early stage following the murder France must have had suspicions...hence he got rid of the gun a.s.a.p. and in a place he knew would incriminate JH and take the heat off himself. Where there's a good chance of a long spell in prison, friendship does tend to go out of the window.

I am also pretty well convinced that it was France who finally made the Ryan/Hanratty connection - why else would he go to the police with the postcard other than to clear himself of any tie-in with the crime? He could've gone down for 20+ years if he'd been found guilty of any involvement.

Also, when JH was watching TV at the Frances, the Identikit pictures came on the screen, and according to her own evidence Charlotte France remarked to JH that one of them looked like him.

Graham

[NickB]

I thought this was how the connection was made ...

The police went to the address entered in the Vienna register ('72 Wood Lane, Kingsbury' as in Nudd's first statement of 15th September) and asked for a J. Ryan. The occupant said that there was no Ryan living there but produced a letter that had arrived for a James Ryan concerning the car accident in Ireland on 7th September. The police then contacted Mr Leonard (presumably he had offered himself as a witness to the accident) and he told them he had shared a hotel room with ‘Jim’ and remembered writing out a postcard on his behalf to Hanratty’s parents.

[Limehouse]

I thought this was how the connection was made ...

The police went to the address entered in the Vienna register ('72 Wood Lane, Kingsbury' as in Nudd's first statement of 15th September) and asked for a J. Ryan. The occupant said that there was no Ryan living there but produced a letter that had arrived for a James Ryan concerning the car accident in Ireland on 7th September. The police then contacted Mr Leonard (presumably he had offered himself as a witness to the accident) and he told them he had shared a hotel room with ‘Jim’ and remembered writing out a postcard on his behalf to Hanratty’s parents.

Hi Nick,

That's the semi 'official' explanation, outlined in Woffinden.

[jimarilyn]

In the film of his famous Paris interview, while he was lolling on the bed eating that inept BBC reporter for breakfast, Alphon looked neither shy, quiet nor, I think, little. In Foot I read that Alphon was, according to his police description, 5' 10". He certainly towers over his ma in that photo of them hugging each other. No way was he 5' 6". I rather think that Justice's usage of the adjective 'little' was intended to be a patronishing description of his social, rather than his physical, stature, as in, "Oh, I have a little man who comes and mows my lawns".

Graham

That Paris interview was almost 6 years after the A6 Murder, not a few days or weeks. Ample enough time for him to grow in confidence and shed any innate shyness/quietness that may have been quite evident to people circa 1961. While he does not come across as shy in the 1967 interview (incidentally it was an ITN reporter not a BBC one) he does come across as hesitant and stuttering on several occasions.
While lolling on that hotel bed Alphon's rather largeish head gives the appearance oh him being bigger than he actually is ( Simon Cowell is a modern day example of this). It is only whe he sits up that one can clearly see that he's a smallish to medium size male. He doesn't look his 5'9". This is evident to the viewer 2 minutes and 19 seconds into clip 5 (of 6) of that interview. And this, I believe, is how Jean Justice saw him, Unlike anyone on this thread Jean Justice actually encountered Alphon in the flesh many times and could give an actual description of the man, not a patronising one.

[Tony]

That Paris interview was almost 6 years after the A6 Murder, not a few days or weeks. Ample enough time for him to grow in confidence and shed any innate shyness/quietness that may have been quite evident to people circa 1961. While he does not come across as shy in the 1967 interview (incidentally it was an ITN reporter not a BBC one) he does come across as hesitant and stuttering on several occasions.
While lolling on that hotel bed Alphon's rather largeish head gives the appearance oh him being bigger than he actually is ( Simon Cowell is a modern day example of this). It is only whe he sits up that one can clearly see that he's a smallish to medium size male. He doesn't look his 5'9". This is evident to the viewer 2 minutes and 19 seconds into clip 5 (of 6) of that interview. And this, I believe, is how Jean Justice saw him, Unlike anyone on this thread Jean Justice actually encountered Alphon in the flesh many times and could give an actual description of the man, not a patronising one.

Hello to you my good friend James,

I have not been on here for a long time but I do look in every day.

The thing with the A6 case is that it is, for those who perceive James Hanratty guilty, a done job.

It is rather like someone saying that tomorrow is Wednesday; it obviously is not. Everybody knows it is Monday so why bother to argue about it?

Of course it is Monday only we are not talking about days of the week. The DNA has proved to most people’s satisfaction that James Hanratty was indeed the A6 murderer.
If I belonged to that group of people I would not bother with any further debate. Why should I waste my breath or time on the computer? If any body even mentioned a miscarriage to me I would reply “DNA”. There’s nothing else to say for their side; they have ‘won’.
It is over and done with.

Then why do they?

Some of them championed the cause of James Hanratty pre DNA and if they did they must have thought that Acott, Oxford, Storie, Swanwick et all were all wrong.
Did they indeed?

Well this case is not over. And soon, very soon, there will be updated developments for them to chew over.

Personally I can not wait.

Tony.

Justice for the 96. And one other.

[Graham]

Hi Tony,

nice to see you back.

Can I just ask you: if, for argument's sake, you accepted that JH was guilty, don't you think that there exist a whole load of unanswered questions regarding this case? Questions that you'd like to see answers to?

This is why the A6 Case is still of huge interest. As is, for example, the Lindbergh Kidnap Case - same as the A6, someone was convicted and executed, but even after 80 years questions remain.

If someone really does have new information about the A6 Case - Dupplin Muir where are you? - then I truly cannot wait to see it either.

Best,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Hello to you my good friend James,

I have not been on here for a long time but I do look in every day.

The thing with the A6 case is that it is, for those who perceive James Hanratty guilty, a done job.

It is rather like someone saying that tomorrow is Wednesday; it obviously is not. Everybody knows it is Monday so why bother to argue about it?

Of course it is Monday only we are not talking about days of the week. The DNA has proved to most people’s satisfaction that James Hanratty was indeed the A6 murderer.
If I belonged to that group of people I would not bother with any further debate. Why should I waste my breath or time on the computer? If any body even mentioned a miscarriage to me I would reply “DNA”. There’s nothing else to say for their side; they have ‘won’.
It is over and done with.

Then why do they?

Some of them championed the cause of James Hanratty pre DNA and if they did they must have thought that Acott, Oxford, Storie, Swanwick et all were all wrong.
Did they indeed?

Well this case is not over. And soon, very soon, there will be updated developments for them to chew over.

Personally I can not wait.

Tony.

Justice for the 96. And one other.

Finely put Tony. Good to see you posting again. You sum up my own feelings almost 100%. It's easy for Jimdiditites to ignore the mountain of evidence pointing to James Hanratty's innocence in favour of blind acceptance of DNA findings obtained from a controversial DNA technique that only three of the World's countries have adopted. Of course the UK knows better than the rest of the world.