a6 murder

[Victor]

The issue over whether Gregten was shot deliberately or by accident is a very important one. Let's look at it this way. According to the evidence, the killer shot Gregsten through the head, raped Valerie and then shot her five or six times as she lay on the ground.

Hi Julie,

I think that's jumping ahead too quickly, if you break the evidence down into smaller parts and look at it from the killers point of view, taking into consideration that all the evidence indicates that the killer was of low intelligence.

The first thing we know is he approached a car in a cornfield. Then we know he knocked on the window. Then the hold-up. Then the he got in and started talking about being a "cowboy" [sounds very much like a novice gunman to me, and naive and immature]. Then at least an hour of inactivity and talk. Then a meandering, unplanned drive. Petrol stop so that means he didn't check there was enough to get whereever he was going. More meandering driving. Stopping after a few aborted attempts. Then according to Woffinden "Gregsten lifted the bag over his left shoulder, towards the back seat. It was probably a desperate last-ditch attempt to disarm the gunman; certainly, he appeared to regard it as a threatening gesture. He instantly fired two shots."

That doesn't sound very calculated to me. He confirms this by saying "He frightened me, he moved too quick".

Then it's 15-20 minutes before the rape, why so long? Indecision? Hesitation? Confusion? Wondering what on earth to do next? We know that Hanratty would be completely overwhelmed if found in those circumstances (as I believe he was). That doesn't sound very premeditated to me.

We also know he was mentally immature, but sexual prolific. Trapped alone in the middle of nowhere with a destraught woman, and supposedly in command of the situation. Certainly the one with the gun, the one with all the brute power. Surely if he knew what was going to happen that he wouldn't be so nervous and indecisive?

I've been trying to work out the time between the rape and the shooting, but a detailed chronology of the crime is curiously absent from Woffinden, he condenses it into 2 sentences in his chronology. I wonder if that is a coincidence? Another coincidence.

I wonder how competent you think Hanratty's driving would be if he found himself in that situation?

Then the high adrenalin escape. But again no evidence of a premeditated escape route.

Dumping the car in a residential area? Admittedly near a tube station, but there have to be some relatively deserted overground stations in rural Bedfordshire.

Dumping the gun on a London bus? I think it's James who repeatedly mentions how stupid and unpremeditated this is.

If the gun had gone off by accident, or by knee-jerk reaction, where di his nerve come from in rapoing and shooting Valerie and then re-loading the gun as if he was prepared to use it again? Doe this sound like the action of a man who shot someone by accident?

Protection? Reassurance? I have to say that yes it sounds exactly like the action of a confused and traumatised man who'd just shot someone by accident.

I wonder who really did re-load that gun before dumping it - and why did they do so???

Or alternatively, why would anyone bother unloading a gun that's been loaded for reassurance before getting rid of it?

Especially if you were Dixie France and had been handed a loaded gun to get rid of, and had been told a sob story of how everything had gone dreadfully wrong and someone had been accidentally shot. And please, please help by getting rid of this gun (that maybe you'd given him a couple of days before "take this back"). And help sort out the mess. And you do [Get miles away from here, somewhere at the other end of the country like Liverpool, send me a telegram to prove your there]. And then you find out what really happened because it's splashed all over the news. Would that make you want to take your own life?

Just some thoughts.

KR,
Vic.

[reg1965]

Apart from a conviction, and a confirmation of the reliability of that conviction by the CCRC.

How could the CCRC confirm Hanratty's conviction when it could only recommended that the case be referred back to the court of appeal.

The CCRC is not above the judiciary but a body delegated by the Home Office to make recommendations about cases that can be referred based on the evidence it has investigated.

Rub your 2 lonely brain cells together and think about what that could possibly mean in this case.

You don't know what you are talking about do you. (it wasn't a question Vic, just a statement of fact)

[reg1965]

I noticed you missed out "Dug up at the request of his family, re-buried"

Oh dear, another quick fire piece of embarrassing misinformation from the prize numpty that is Victor.

Hanratty was exhumed by order of the Court of Appeal.

I am sure the Hanratty family will be overjoyed at YOUR TOTAL IGNORANCE AND DISRESPECT toward them.

You are a complete and utter twat.

[Victor]

Especially if you were Dixie France and had been handed a loaded gun to get rid of, and had been told a sob story of how everything had gone dreadfully wrong and someone had been accidentally shot. And please, please help by getting rid of this gun (that maybe you'd given him a couple of days before "take this back"). And help sort out the mess. And you do [Get miles away from here, somewhere at the other end of the country like Liverpool, send me a telegram to prove your there]. And then you find out what really happened because it's splashed all over the news. Would that make you want to take your own life?

I apologise for the double-post, but I ran out of editting time.

Two further thoughts...

Maybe Louise Anderson got it slightly wrong or Hanratty told her a boastful exaggeration, it wasn't Hanratty who kept the gun in the France's airing cupboard, it was Dixie, and Hanratty found it there when he was putting away his sheets and stole it (a thief stealing something, surely not!). Hanratty had afterall expressed an interest in becoming a stick-up man and here's a chance of getting hold of a gun, stored in it's usual place with lots of boxes of bullets. And then he went to Dixie for help when it all went wrong - "Have this thing back, I took it from your airing cupboard and have completely messed things up". It'd certainly explain why the gun was dumped a day late, if Dixie had to tell Hanratty what to do and how to establish an alibi that must take at least a days "finking". Could Dixie have mentioned an unprovable but unshakable guest house alibi, like this one with a green bath in the attic in Rhyl he remembered from earlier visits.

Dixie's suicide could be shame at helping Hanratty (who he knew to be guilty but not the details of the crime) nearly escape justice plus some guilt when you latter find out how horrific details, or guilt for bringing a gun into his house and so being responsible for Hanratty getting hold of a weapon and killing someone and greviously injuring a second person or a mixture of both.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Oh dear, another quick fire piece of embarrassing misinformation from the prize numpty that is Victor.

Hanratty was exhumed by order of the Court of Appeal.

I am sure the Hanratty family will be overjoyed at YOUR TOTAL IGNORANCE AND DISRESPECT toward them.

You are a complete and utter twat.

Misinformation? Woffinden page 343 On 17 february 1966 the new Home Secretary, Roy Jenkins, signed the licence allowing the [Hanratty] family to remove the remains of their son from Bedford Prison. At noon on 22 February 1966 Jimmy was reburied in Carpenters Park, Watford.

Now you apologise for your total ignorance and disrespect towards the Hanratty family.

[reg1965]

Maybe Louise Anderson got it slightly wrong or Hanratty told her a boastful exaggeration, it wasn't Hanratty who kept the gun in the France's airing cupboard, it was Dixie, and Hanratty found it there when he was putting away his sheets and stole it (a thief stealing something, surely not!). Hanratty had afterall expressed an interest in becoming a stick-up man and here's a chance of getting hold of a gun, stored in it's usual place with lots of boxes of bullets. And then he went to Dixie for help when it all went wrong - "Have this thing back, I took it from your airing cupboard and have completely messed things up". It'd certainly explain why the gun was dumped a day late, if Dixie had to tell Hanratty what to do and how to establish an alibi that must take at least a days "finking". Could Dixie have mentioned an unprovable but unshakable guest house alibi, like this one with a green bath in the attic in Rhyl he remembered from earlier visits.

It is a very clever theory except for one slight little problem.

The Frances' testified under oath that not one of them saw Hanratty between late Monday 22nd and the weekend following the murder.

Oops.

Try again.

You are not doing too well here are you. (again not a question but a statement of fact)

[reg1965]

Misinformation? Woffinden page 343 On 17 february 1966 the new Home Secretary, Roy Jenkins, signed the licence allowing the [Hanratty] family to remove the remains of their son from Bedford Prison. At noon on 22 February 1966 Jimmy was reburied in Carpenters Park, Watford.

Now you apologise for your total ignorance and disrespect towards the Hanratty family.

You can only be some kind of a evil ghoul to have added a comment like that anyway.

I have noticed how you have shown so little regard for the Hanratty family by your pathetic fantasies here so don't start crying crocodile tears now and start gloating.

[Victor]

Ouch touche turtle. I have noticed how you have shown so little regard for the Hanratty family by your pathetic fantasies here so don't start crying crocodile tears now you hypocritical little worm.

What a surprise, no apology, no "Reg got it wrong". You really are pathetic. After bragging about being an "expert" on the A6 case.

[reg1965]

What a surprise, no apology, no "Reg got it wrong". You really are pathetic. After bragging about being an "expert" on the A6 case.

Answer my questions about why you think the CCRC confirmed Hanratty's gulit.

[Victor]

It is a very clever theory except for one slight little problem.

The Frances' testified under oath that not one of them saw Hanratty between late Monday 22nd and the weekend following the murder.

Where did I say Hanratty met any of the France's other than Dixie? And he's supposed to be helping Hanratty out isn't he? Telling him how to get an alibi. Being an accomplice. He'd want to lie his way out of that possible charge.

You are not doing too well here are you. (again not a question but a statement of fact)

Or another one of Reg's fantasies. Like the one about never being wrong in matters A6.

[reg1965]

What a surprise, no apology, no "Reg got it wrong". You really are pathetic. After bragging about being an "expert" on the A6 case.

I didn't miss anything out , If you thought I did then that is your problem. I was just quoting what I wanted to quote. I commented on your sad hijack of my post to someone else.
I am entitled to put you right as I see it.
Hanratty was exhumed by the court of appeal. Not by his family. He must have been reburied afterwards.

[Victor]

You can only be some kind of a evil ghoul to have added a comment like that anyway.

I have noticed how you have shown so little regard for the Hanratty family by your pathetic fantasies here so don't start crying crocodile tears now and start gloating.

Absolute rubbish, I cannot compliment the Hanratty family otherwise I'd be accused of patronising them, just like the Judgment was.

[Victor]

I didn't miss anything out , If you thought I did then that is your problem. I was just quoting what I wanted to quote.

That was the point I was making, you were implying poor hard-done-by Hanratty has had no peace since he was victimised by this evil woman, even his corpse isn't allowed to rest. When the reality is that he was first dug up at the request of his family.

I am entitled to put you right as I see it.
Hanratty was exhumed by the court of appeal. Not by his family. He must have been reburied afterwards.

But you called my comment "another quick fire piece of embarrassing misinformation" when what I said is entirely accurate.

[Hatchett]

A6

Anyway I don't really give a rats arse how many degrees you have because I have a double first degree and am a double prize winning graduate who is currently studying for an MSc. I am also an expert in the A6 murder and know more about this case than you ever will.

It is is a shame Reg that you feel that you have to justify yourself with titles. I would fear that there are not many people who would feel that they have to call themselves experts in a field where there are very few experts, but a lot of of people with opposing views.

Baby Bird is purely and simple stating a matter of fact argument for a case that really reached the end of the line with the DNA results. After all, that is not just the view of the experts but their final decision.

I wish you well.

[Victor]

It is a very clever theory except for one slight little problem.

And at the same time, explain how Louise Anderson knew which butchers Mrs France used. Could it be because Hanratty told her about the bag that Dixie had wrapped his gun in to hide it?