a6 murder

[Limehouse]

PLEASE chaps, this thread has been buzzing, interesting and POLITE in the past few days. It has attracted back old friends and new posters. Let's not spoil it all by squabbling.

[Tony]

PLEASE chaps, this thread has been buzzing, interesting and POLITE in the past few days. It has attracted back old friends and new posters. Let's not spoil it all by squabbling.

Thank you Julie,

The voice of reason. I have only really been looking in of late and as you know I do not like to contribute any more because of the rude responses from an individual to all my posts.

I will say this, however: I have never met or spoken to James (Jimarilyn) but the first contact I ever had with him was by PM from him asking for my address. I assumed he was neither a burglar nor murderer so I gave it to him. Out of the blue he sent me a book on this case that I had not seen before.
He has also recently sent me a further book on the case although this is written in French. From my experience he is a top bloke. He would not accept any payment for these items.
But one thing James; and I can not believe my luck, a girl who is very friendly with my eldest daughter and is about 30 and has been living in France for the past ten years has come back home and I helped her out a bit with some furniture and she has taken an interest in the case.
She is reading Woffinden this very week and next week she is coming round to my place to read Jean Justice’s book to me.
She’s gorgeous. Eat your heart out Julie.

Tony

[Victor]

PLEASE chaps, this thread has been buzzing, interesting and POLITE in the past few days. It has attracted back old friends and new posters. Let's not spoil it all by squabbling.

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I was disgusted at the blatantly biased critism that James directed at Richard. It suggests to me that James wants to transform this thread into his JimisInnocent religious forum, where all those who disagree get treated with all the fervour due to a blasphemer.

Tony has kindly highlighted the gifts bestowed upon the faithful in his post above.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Thank you Julie,

The voice of reason. I have only really been looking in of late and as you know I do not like to contribute any more because of the rude responses from an individual to all my posts.

I will say this, however: I have never met or spoken to James (Jimarilyn) but the first contact I ever had with him was by PM from him asking for my address. I assumed he was neither a burglar nor murderer so I gave it to him. Out of the blue he sent me a book on this case that I had not seen before.
He has also recently sent me a further book on the case although this is written in French. From my experience he is a top bloke. He would not accept any payment for these items.
But one thing James; and I can not believe my luck, a girl who is very friendly with my eldest daughter and is about 30 and has been living in France for the past ten years has come back home and I helped her out a bit with some furniture and she has taken an interest in the case.
She is reading Woffinden this very week and next week she is coming round to my place to read Jean Justice’s book to me.
She’s gorgeous. Eat your heart out Julie.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Truthfully, I am far from gorgeous and after five years of studying French in school I could only say My blackbird has one feather. However, I hope you enjoy being read to. Justice's book will be very interesting.

I wholly endorse your view of James - he has made and continues to make a huge contribution to the thread. It is a pity Vic became involved in the debate between Richard and Jim.

Let's get the thread back to its previous level of polite banter.

Does anyone else think that the fact the gun was loaded when found is relevant in some way ? I just think that if the killer [B]did[B] re-load the gun at some point after the shootings, it says a lot about the type of person he was.

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I was disgusted at the blatantly biased critism that James directed at Richard. It suggests to me that James wants to transform this thread into his JimisInnocent religious forum, where all those who disagree get treated with all the fervour due to a blasphemer.

Tony has kindly highlighted the gifts bestowed upon the faithful in his post above.

KR,
Vic.

Vic, you didn't offend me, it just disappoints me to see the thread falling below its recent level of debate and discourse into personal attacks.

[Graham]

Dear All,

Obviously what keeps this thread alive and as fascinating as it is, is the belief shared by some posters that Hanratty was innocent, and by others that he was guilty. If we all thought he was innocent, or if we all thought he was guilty, then there'd be no debate and no thread. When the thread first began (started I believe by Larue) I'd say that opinion was roughly divided. There was good debate. Then, as a former poster memorably commented to me in a PM, the "JimIsInnocent Stormtroopers" appeared. OK, if you feel sufficiently fervent about a subject, then get stuck in, but not to the extent that you feel free to personally abuse posters whose stance is the opposite to your own. And this, sad to say, is what happened. I left the thread temporarily, as a result of all this pointless abuse. I came back when I felt that tempers had simmered down a bit. I would hate to see that situation reversed. Keep it cool, people.

Speaking purely personally now, I remember the A6 Case when it happened, and there certainly was a feeling that there had been a miscarriage of justice. The champion of this was good old Paul Foot, a highly-respected investigative journalist who allied himself to what he perceived as wrong-doings in our society, and a more gentle man you couldn't imagine. As an avid reader of 'Private Eye' in those days (when it was far more influential than it has become today), I thought that maybe there really was something to all the bubble and froth about Hanratty being a victim of a miscarriage of justice, a victim of the Establishment and police corruption, and so forth. When John Lennon and Yoko Ono got involved (and their involvement didn't last all that long, as it turned out) I thought that there really was a case for the Establishment to answer.

I was never 100% convinced of Hanratty's innocence, however, and I felt then as I feel now that certain of his supporters did his case no good whatsoever. I can remember Alphon's outpourings as they happened - I saw his Paris 'Press Conference' on TV (Panorama, I think) as it happened, and I thought then that there is no way this bloke can be trusted or believed - I was, and remain, totally convinced that once he had been legally cleared of the A6 Crime he absolutely went to town, and made the most of his 'celebrity' status to the extent that he seemed to be above the law. If Jean Justice used Alphon, then make no mistake that Alphon used Justice, and far more successfully and profitably. It was the DNA that convinced me that the law had got it right in 1961, and that Alphon was exposed for precisely what he was: a complete chancer, and a person of virtually no moral scruples whatsoever.

Alphon was no more the A6 killer than my cat. He was a nasty, self-seeking, manipulative, vainglorious piece of work who made a profit out of a gruesome crime.

To date, nothing on this thread (or elsewhere) has convinced me that Hanratty was anything but guilty. I feel sorry for his victims, his family, and for him too, as it goes.

I still feel, however, that there is a hell of a lot surrounding this crime that remains as mysterious and as unexplained as it was in 1961, and that is the basis of my interest in the case, even though I am 100% comfortable with the fact that Hanratty did it. Why he did it, and why so many odd and inexplicable things happened in the wake of the crime - this is the basis of my continuing interest. I could go on, but this post is too long already, and I'm sorry for rambling on a bit. All I ask of those who genuinely believe that Hanratty was innocent, is to produce one piece of tangible, proveable, hard, evidence of his innocence; and then I think the debate will really take off.

Thanks for listening (if you have been).

Graham

[Limehouse]

Graham,

Bravo!

[Victor]

I can remember Alphon's outpourings as they happened - I saw his Paris 'Press Conference' on TV (Panorama, I think) as it happened, and I thought then that there is no way this bloke can be trusted or believed - I was, and remain, totally convinced that once he had been legally cleared of the A6 Crime he absolutely went to town, and made the most of his 'celebrity' status to the extent that he seemed to be above the law. If Jean Justice used Alphon, then make no mistake that Alphon used Justice, and far more successfully and profitably. It was the DNA that convinced me that the law had got it right in 1961, and that Alphon was exposed for precisely what he was: a complete chancer, and a person of virtually no moral scruples whatsoever.

Alphon was no more the A6 killer than my cat. He was a nasty, self-seeking, manipulative, vainglorious piece of work who made a profit out of a gruesome crime.

Hi Graham,

I've always thought he was an arrogant, thrill-seeker, who tried to "milk" his 15 minutes of fame for all he could get. To some extent he did go through a nasty ordeal, having his name totally dragged through the mud and I have trouble deciding if he was "bad" or if the accusations of murderer made him "bad". It's actually all those who still think him more than just a "Soho tiddler" and actually capable of murder that push me towards the latter.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Alphon himself admitted to being scared to death when he presented himself at Scotland Yard for a grilling courtesy of Acott and Oxford. But he must have known even then that there was no way the police could make anything stick, and it was his good fortune that good old Monsieur Justice and his willing side-kick Mr Fox came on the scene, and showed him the good life. Maybe he felt he was due for a break; if he did, he took full advantage of it. But like all chancers, his philosophy was 'here today, gone tomorrow'. I've often wondered if he should have got himself an agent.

Cheers,

Graham

[Graham]

Have a look at this, people:

http://www.crimeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=686

Hmmm....

Graham

[Tony]

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I was disgusted at the blatantly biased critism that James directed at Richard. It suggests to me that James wants to transform this thread into his JimisInnocent religious forum, where all those who disagree get treated with all the fervour due to a blasphemer.

Tony has kindly highlighted the gifts bestowed upon the faithful in his post above.

KR,
Vic.

I find that really sad and offensive.

What a rude man you are.

Tony.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
I absolutely agree with Graham , he highlights my thoughts entirely.
James/Jimaralyn, you are correct in stating that I have in the past expressed some doubts, for eg, The lack of gear knowledge from Hanratty was strange behaviour from a car thief, etc etc, however I was taking part in a discussion , and submitting thoughts.
I have never fully wavered from Hanrattys guilt, and unless evidence to the contary rears its head, that will be my stance.
Incidently i too remember the actual event, i was just about to leave school at the time, and I am no novice to the case, I am well aware that this case is more complex, then just innocent , or guilty, but my feelings on the matter, is rather like the Kennedy assasination, ie, media attention sways us towards a attitude of .There is more to this , then meets the eye', when infact there is proberly not.
I am sorry if my recent post has started a hornets nest, of bad feelings, it was not intentional.
Regards Richard.

[Tony]

Levels of abuse:

The thing about the A6 case is its fascination to many, many people even after all these years.
That is the sole reason why this thread is in existence.

Hanratty’s supporters, of which I am one, are in a disadvantage in the debate for two reasons.

The first one is that he was found guilty and hanged the second one is the DNA evidence which was accepted by the appeal judges.

For the people who believe Hanratty to be guilty that should in effect be that. End of story.

However, there are still some, again I include myself who believe Hanratty to have been wronged, and we like talking about it; preferably in a sensible manner and particularly without having to suffer abuse because of our beliefs.

If I wanted to be verbally abused I could simply get a ticket in the Stretford End and start shouting: “Liverpool, Liverpool, Liverpool.” That wouldn’t be nice either I wouldn’t imagine.

Why can the people on here, obviously all well educated, not behave themselves and just grow up?

Life is too short and the main thing you should do is have a laugh, even on a topic as serious as this.

Tony.



By the way James just a little story about the Stretford End:

I have had a season ticket for years in the South Stand, just behind the director’s box, and level with the half-way-line at Hillsborough. I have always gone with a mate of mine who has the next seat. Anyway for one reason or another he couldn’t go to the first few matches one season so I asked another pal if he would like to use his ticket. He was a Man Urinal fan but liked footy so he came with me to about four or five matches. When we were at home Urinal were away.
Well one night he rings me up and says there is a European Cup Match on down at Stretford and Urinal are playing Fenerbace of Turkey and his son-in-law is working so I can go with him using his ticket; returning the favour if you like.
I told him I didn’t really want to step foot in the place but he managed to persuade me.
When we got to the ground, which is nothing like Hillsborough, our ground has four sides and this one appeared from the outside to be round; something like a large bullring.
I do not know why I thought this but I really did think we would be sitting in exactly the same position at Old Trafford as I sat in at Hillsborough.
No. We were on row 4 right behind the goal. You could hear the Fenerbace goalie talking to the players during the pre match kick about. During that pre match kick about the Turkish forwards were having some target practice and trying to chip their goalie but one of them got it wrong and sent the ball too high and it sailed over the bar and kept going, I thought I was going to make the save myself, but the ball went about 4 seats to the side of me where a red and white clad fan was reading his programme and eating a steak pudding. The ball was placed perfectly enough to hit both the steak pudding and the programme causing them both to explode on impact. The red and white owner of these items received mild pudding burns to his face; I think his scarf saved him from more serious injuries, but his programme was ruined. I, somewhat stupidly, started to giggle.
It turned out everyone knew the pudding man, he was called Billy and the section of the crowd we were in all started to encourage Billy to climb over the fence and kick the sh1t out of the visiting goalkeeper. Fortunately a steward had witnessed this event and managed to restore a calm of sorts.

Just before kick off a woman came in and said to my mate he was in her seat. My mate explained he was a season ticket holder and this was always his seat.
She replied with a torrent of foul mouthed abuse including which she ‘explained’ this was not a league match but a Cup Tie and she had a ticket for that seat. So he could just eff off and be effing quick about it. My mate checked his ticket and sure enough he was in the wrong seat. His seat was even closer to the goal, on row 2 just in front of the still steaming Billy.
So I was left at the side of this foul mouthed woman for the duration of the game and her language got more choice as the match progressed.
In fact it did not take her long to notice that I was not joining in with the songs about Matt Busby and long gone players. She soon alerted other members of this section of the crowd that I might not be one of them and I soon started getting the evil eye from various directions. Billy in particular, not being able to take his revenge on the goalie, seemed very interested in me.
I spent a very uncomfortable evening there I can tell you and spent most of the second half considering my escape route. I needed to come up with a cunning plan because Urinal were loosing thanks to a Peter Shmeical blunder. Good on you Pete.
I got up about 15 minutes before the end, well I didn’t really get up because nobody had actually sat down, and I turned to the foul mouthed lady, who was now pointing to the few Fenerbace fans and giving them a chorus of “You’re going to get your f**king heads kicked in”, and told her would she mind letting me past as I was bursting for the toilet.
I nipped out of the ground and somehow found my way back to my mate’s car and waited for about an hour for him to return. He had been looking for me all round the ground.
Personally I think he was probably asking the police if anyone had been carried out of the Stretford End and taken to hospital unconscious. He was just being kind towards his own fans.
I never saw the foul mouthed lady or Pudding Billy ever again thank goodness and I have never set foot in that terrible place since.
Phew, had to finally get that off my chest, James.

Tony. (Justice for the 96)

[jimarilyn]

Just a few reasons why I believe in James Hanratty's innocence and in Peter Alphon's guilt ( not necessarily in any particular order)

I apologise in advance for the length of this post.......

1) The original police TV news bulletin issued just hours after the murder (by Superintendent Morgan)stated (amongst other things) that the murderer had brown eyes. Miss Storie confirmed this just 3 days later when helping SGt Jock Mackie to compile the identikit photo in which the killer's eyes are depicted as dark in colour. Hanratty's eyes were light blue. Peter Alphon's eyes were hazel, a shade of brown. In addition the bulletin stated that the murderer had a pale face and was aged about 30, which fitted Alphon to a tee.

2) The photokit was compiled when the image of the killer's face was very fresh in Miss Storie's mind. This photokit is almost a dead ringer for Peter Alphon and not one iota like James Hanratty.

3) The police asked Bed & Breakfast/Guest House/Hotel owners to keep an eye out for any boarders who were acting strangely, nervously or suspiciously and who had not ventured out since the crime. Peter Sims, the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel, contacted the police on August 27th to report the very strange and attention drawing behaviour of one of his guests who had not come down for a meal in the four days he had been there The behaviour of this man disturbed a number of guests, particularly one Mary Perkins, a schoolteacher. The man had been pacing back and forth in his room, rummaging through his wardrobe, talking to himself and rattling metallic objects (bullets perhaps ?). He had caused Miss Perkins to have sleepless nights. It turned out that this man proved to be a certain Peter Louis Alphon. He was subsequently brought in for police questioning. Intriguingly enough, at the bottom of Alphon's suitcase was a very recent copy of the Daily Express ( either the 24th, 25th or 26th of August ) with large headlines of the A6 Murder splashed across the front page.

4) The day after the murder in a place ony 20 miles away from Deadman's Hill, Mrs Audrey Willis was held up at gunpoint by a man who had forced his way into her home. He demanded money from her. Her description of this man was uncannily similar to Peter Alphon. According to Mrs Willis he was about 30 (Alphon's exact age), he had smoothed back dark brown hair which was receding at the temples and he had deep-set brown eyes. He was wearing a pale grey knee-length raincoat with epaulettes. Peter Alphon had a fondness for such coats, In fact 30 years later Alphon can be seen (in Bob Woffinden's 1992 Channel 4 documentary) on a railway platform wearing a similar type coat.
The man asked for and was given a glass of milk. The murderer of Michael Gregsten the previous day demanded that they stop for milk. Unbelievably, lightning was to strike twice for Mrs Willis, as just two days before Hanratty's execution she was held up again at gunpoint by the very same man. The circumstances of this second encounter were almost identical to the first, the man again told Mrs Willis to take off his shoes but this time he asked for a glass of sherry instead of milk. His parting words to her were "You and I will have a smile on Wednesday morning, knowing that it is the wrong man. You and I know who did it, don't we ?"

5) A fortnight after the murder Mrs Meike Dalal was viciously attacked in her own home (shades
of the Willis incident only this time with physical violence) by a man who she later identified as Peter Alphon. The man claimed to be the A6 killer. This attack had all the hallmarks of the assault on Miss Storie 2 weeks earlier. In all Mrs Dalal's attacker struck 3 violent blows to her head. He was preparing to rape her. The rapist of Miss Storie was planning to hit her on the head with something hard (the butt of a gun perhaps ??). Mrs Dalal's attacker and would be rapist had tied her wrists ( none too successfully ) behind her back with some flex. The rapist of Miss Storie had bound (none too succcessfully) her wrists with a piece of rope and a tie.

6) Peter Alphon was the police's prime suspect as the A6 murderer. Right up until Miss Storie's non-identification of Peter Alphon on the September 24th identity parade the police were convinced they had their man. The innocent airman who Miss Storie picked out on that line-up resembled Alphon. Miss Storie admitted as much herself.

7) William Nudd's second statement to the police made on September 21st. This is a very exhaustive and detailed account which strongly implicated Alphon. Much more convincing and thorough than his first and third statements.

8) Two empty cartridge cases were found in room 24 of the Vienna Hotel subsequent to Alphoon's stay at the hotel. According to William Nudds, Alphon was allocated this large room at around 1pm on Tuesday August 22nd, given a key to it and left his suitcase in it. Nudds advised him that if a single room became available in the meantime, before he returned to the hotel, he could have it. Alphon left the hotel shortly afterwards, advising Nudds not to wait up for him as he may be back very late that night.

9) No one has ever come forward to place James Hanratty in the Dorney/Slough/Taplow area that fateful day (or on any occasion previously or subsequently for that matter). At least one person, Mrs Mary Lanz, however, has positively stated that she saw Peter Alphon in The Old Station Inn that Tuesday evening. Three local residents, namely Stanley Cobb, his wife Elsie Cobb and their next door neighbour Frederick Newell all testified that they saw a man that Tuesday afternoon who looked strikingly similar to the published identikit pictures of the killer. All three stated that this man had dark hair which was brushed back, two of them remembered that he had dark eyes, one of them said his hair was receding at the temples and another stated that his hair seemed to be receding from his forehead. These descriptions were very indicative and suggestive of either Alphon or a look-alike especially bearing in mind that the man they saw looked so much like the photokits of the killer, and bearing in mind also that Alphon bore an uncanny resemblance to Miss Storie's identikit photo.
Significantly, Frederick Newell stated that he had seen the same man twice previously that August, which could well have coincided with the occasions that another local resident of the area, Michael Fogarty-Waul, had encounters with a man he had seen at Slough Greyhound Stadium and had given a lift to. This man reminded Fogarty-Waul of the British character actor Sidney Tafler. Many people have commented on the similarity between Tafler and Peter Alphon.

10) A careful and close reading of James Hanratty's heartfelt letters from prison to his family cries out to the reader that here are the words of an innocent man who finds himself in an intolerable situation. The people who tended to him at Bedford Prison in his final weeks ( priests and warders ) were convinced of his innocence. They witnessed at first hand his demeanour and listened to whatever he had to say.

11) Peter Alphon's confessions to the crime.

12) Peter Alphon was known to lapse into a cockney accent and pronounce "th" as an "f" when agitated and excited. Thus words like "things" would be mispronounced "fings"

13) Valerie Storie stated that on a couple or so occasions the killer, ordering her to do certain things, spoke the words "I will count five"......Peter Alphon threatened Jean Justice with exactly the same expression....."I will count five......."

14) Jean Justice, Frank Justice and Jeremy Fox spent many a long hour in Peter Alphon's company and got to know him extremely well. They all became totally and utterly convinced that their friend was indeed the A6 murderer. I'm sure they didn't arrive at this conclusion lightly. In fact Jeremy Fox was unconvinced until one evening in July 1962 at the Blue Angel club in Berkeley Square when Alphon made a verbal confession to him of the murder. Fox said to Alphon that evening "You know, Mrs Hanratty feels pretty badly about her son being hanged for a murder he didn't commit" Upon saying these words Fox states that "the look of anguish that came over Alphon's face at that moment finally convinced me that he was indeed the A6 killer".

15) Peter Alphon had no corroborated alibi fror the evening of the murder. James Hanratty however did have a corroborated alibi.

16) Peter Alphon knew his London extremely well. Two of the areas he was very familiar with were Northolt and Kingsbury. The A6 killer wanted Mike Gregsten and Miss Storie to stop at a cafe in Northolt which he frequented. The Harrow area where the gunman is alleged to have said there were roadworks around the corner was about only 2 or 3 miles away from Kingsbury, (incidentally where Hanratty's parents lived) an area that Alphon knew very well.

17) Peter Alphon stated to Acott that he was afraid of women. I've read up somewhat on the subject of rape and in a lot of cases the act of rape is not about obtaining sexual gratification, it is much more about exerting power. Exerting power over a helpless victim, subjecting them to humiliation and degradation. If Alphon, as it seems, was something of a misogynist then one way to exert dominance over a female would be to carry out the act of rape. Mrs Dalal identified Alphon as her vicious assailant and would be rapist.

18) James Hanratty had no history of violent behaviour. He had a normal sex drive for a young man and enjoyed the company and gained the respect of the females he encountered in his daily life. He was very close to his mother Mary, his Auntie Anne and his cousin Eileen. His girlfriends Mary Meaden and Gladys Deacon spoke highly of him, as indeed did Ann Pryce, Carol France, Charlotte France and even Louise Anderson.

19) It is beyond any doubt that Alphon physically attacked at least one female, namely Mary Hanratty.

20) Mrs Olive Dinwoodie, a real thorn and inconvenience in the side of the Jimdiditites.

21) All the Rhyl Witnesses.

I will stop at this point before I acquire keyboard finger syndrome. I could go on and on and on (like Mrs Doyle) but that would be too time consuming and boring (especially for the owner of a nasal spray !)

Once again apologies for the length of this post.

[Victor]

I find that really sad and offensive.

What a rude man you are.

Tony.

Tony,

What a surprise, the devoted Church of JimisInnocent&StateMurdered fundamentalist totally overlooks the disgusting behaviour of his Archbishop and decides to insult me for standing up to the dogma.

I don't believe I was rude, nor can I see how a reasonable, unbiased person could possibly find what I said to be rude, so maybe you can tell me?

Is James not "blatantly biased"?
Did he not unnecessarily insult Richard?
Does he not quote wholesale posts in favour of Hanratty with minimal comments like "What an insightful post."?
Is that behaviour not accurately described as "sycophantic"?
Did he lavish you (a self-confessed believer) with gifts?

You are completely right that you have a disadvantage in the argument, but the first of your reasons is absolutely wrong. The fact that Hanratty was convicted and hanged is an advantage for you. It is the reason I'm interested in the case, and strongly believed he was innocent. It's the reason so many other people were interested too, including Paul Foot. It's the reason he wrote his book and so much extra information was discovered due to his investigations.

It's the reason this thread exists. If Hanratty had been found innocent, what would have happened then? How many more years would he have been in and out of prison? He'd probably be rotting in there today, just like Ronald Castree. He'd may even have killed and\or raped a few more innocent victims.

I know we disagree, and I am comfortable with that. I'm sad you don't seem able to be content too.

I can only echo these sentiments...

To date, nothing on this thread (or elsewhere) has convinced me that Hanratty was anything but guilty. I feel sorry for his victims, his family, and for him too, as it goes.

I still feel, however, that there is a hell of a lot surrounding this crime that remains as mysterious and as unexplained as it was in 1961, and that is the basis of my interest in the case, even though I am 100% comfortable with the fact that Hanratty did it. Why he did it, and why so many odd and inexplicable things happened in the wake of the crime - this is the basis of my continuing interest.

KR,
Vic.