a6 murder

[Limehouse]

I wonder why Nudds felt the need to lie so much about the details of Durrant's (Alphon's) stay at the hotel. What was the point?

[Victor]

I wonder why Nudds felt the need to lie so much about the details of Durrant's (Alphon's) stay at the hotel. What was the point?

The 1st statement isn't a lie.

I think the point of the 2nd was to give the police something to work with. They had few substantive leads and needed a boost, so Baz and Oxo leaned on him, and he obligingly gave them a lead. A bit like the junkie in se7en giving Brad Pitt a reason to kick the murderers door down, only PLA actually was innocent.

The point of the 3rd was that Alphon had been eliminated from enquiries because VS didn't pick him out, so the police needed a genuine lead, so he retracted the fabricated 2nd statement.

At least that's a reasonable explanation, but admittedly not definite nor the only one.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Fair enough Vic, but all these little incidents make the evidence against Hanratty so flimsy. Nudds was a lying toad, Alphon had a questionable alibi, The cartridges in the hotel were not, I believe, discovered until the gun and spare cartidges were in the hands of the police and we are also supposed to believe that Hanratty wrapped the gun in his own hanky. Incidently, not only is it claimed that Hanratty told Dixie France that 'under the back seat on the top decker of a bus is a good place to hide unwanted loot from a robbery' it was also known that Hanratty used a hanky to wipe down surfaces and things he had touched during a robbery rather than gloves. Very neat that the gun linked to Hanratty happened to be found in that very place wrapped in one of his hankies.

[Graham]

Reference The Vienna and what went off there. IMHO this is the most confusing part of the whole A6 story, and I really need to sit down and re-read Foot to refresh my memory. (Foot rather than Woffinden, as I feel the latter has a tendency to, er, obfuscate a little...). Obviously PLA led the police to The Vienna and obviously poor old Baz had a hell of time sifting fact from fantasy during his various chats with Mr Nudds and his missus. Until I re-read Foot I'll say no more...

The gun on the bus scenario has always seemed a bit suspicious to me, and I once suggested that the gun originated with Dixie and after the murder JH was frightened silly and gave the gun back for Dixie to dispose of, maybe with a hint of violence against him if he didn't play ball. By now Dixie was also scared witless, and decided to take the heat of himself by planting the gun + one of JH's hankies that Charlotte France hadn't got round to washing. (I doubt if Dixie even thought of blood group identification, and of course he couldn't know about DNA). But JH did identify the hankie as his - another fatal mistake. Plus he agreed about telling Dixie about the back seat of a bus, etc - yet another fatal mistake. And there was that famous scene at the appeal by the unknown woman who shouted out that 'they should ask the conductress on the 36A bus'. Did this refer to the possibility that the conductress actually saw Dixie acting suspiciously on the bus, and even perhaps recognised him?

Does anyone think any of this is even remotely feasible?

Cheers,

Graham

[Limehouse]

Hi Graham,

Yes, I do think the possible events as you describe them are feasible. The whole relationship between France, his family and Hanratty strikes me as odd. France's wife is said to have had no idea about the true nature of her husband's 'employment' as a petty crook. France, on the other hand knew all about Hanratty's career as a burglar. Why then did he allow such a man into his family circle? Did Hanratty, in fact, have a hidden side that his family never saw? Did his connections with the underworld scare France? Was it a case of keeing your friends near and your enemies nearer?

[burkhilly]

Some great debating on the thread at the moment. Am now off work for two whole weeks, so I'll be adding my very few thoughts soon.

[Graham]

Hi all.

1] Have started to re-read Foot after maybe a couple of years and I'd forgotten just how good he is. I meant just to read up about The Vienna and Nudds, but began at the beginning. And here's something I'd forgotten:

it was Ewer who first tipped off the police re: "J Ryan". This was following the 'She Saw Him At The Cleaners' episode when Janet Gregsten got scared, etc., and Ewer went into the sho and got the assistant to show him the customer-book. He thereupon phoned Scotland Yard. Shortly afterwards, following the discovery of the cartridge-cases at The Vienna, Acott found the name 'J Ryan' in the visitors' book. (However, quite how Acott linked 'J Ryan' with 'James Hanratty' not even Foot knows....but the suggestion is that Dixie France supplied the necessary tip-off).

2] France was a wrong 'un all right, but kept his wrongdoings more or less secret, and doubtless never told his family about Hanratty's "precedents" (as Sherlock Holmes would have put it). I kind of get the impression that France had the underworld links to which JH aspired, rather than vice versa.

3] JH's family obviously knew that he was a bad 'un from all the time he spent in nick. His parents must have been incredibly forgiving and understanding and indulgent, considering his behaviour. (My one and only brush with the law, for out-of-hours drinking when I was 21, resulted in my old man chasing me round the block!) But I'm sure they saw him for what he was - a petty burglar, car-thief, and so forth.

4] Get them posts coming, Burkhilly! We crave debate!

Cheers,

Graham

[Limehouse]

Graham,

Do you know if the Paul Foot book is still in print?

[Graham]

Hi Limehouse,

Don't think it's still in print, but there are 8 used copies for sale on Amazon as I speak.

I got my copy from the True Crime Bookshop in Hay-on-Wye in pre-computer days, and I had to wait nearly a year before they got one in. Great work by a great writer and researcher, who so far as the, ahem, 'Establishment' was concerned, could've been greater still had he not buggered about with the Socialist Workers Party, the silly sod. Never did anyone any good. His column in Private Eye was the first I turned to in the days when I bought that publication week in, week out. His other great contributions (so far as I'm concerned) were with the Birmingham Six and the Bridgewater Four.

Cheers,

Graham

[Limehouse]

Thanks Graham. I believe I did read the Paul Foot book many, many years ago. I used to enjoy reading his column in The Daily Mirror, also many, many years ago. I did not dip into Private Eye in those days. When I was about 16, a neighbour, learning of my left-wing leanings at the bus stop one morning, started bringing round old copies of his regular read, The Morning Star. My aunt and uncle, with whom I was living at that time, were horrified and my reading material was strictly scrutinised until I left home!

With reference to your comment about Ewer alerting the police after the 'cleaners' incident, that was the event that really got me more interested in the whole case.I had alwasy been aware of the Hanratty story. My parents were relatively left wing (my father more than mother) and as a child there were overheard whispered adult conversations about how the state had practically 'murdered' Hanratty and Bentley. My older brother used to scare me with stories that Hanratty's spirit was angry and on the loose, that he could never rest in peace until the truth was known. Kids in my street used to think of Hanratty as a sort of boogey man, much like JtR.

Years later I read about the case in a true crime magazine. I read about the way the police were supposed to have caught Hanratty after Janet saw him walk past the antique shop and go into a dry cleaners nearby and, by the then description of the murderer (large, blue, saucer-like eyes) alerted Ewer and subsequently the police. I was totally shocked that a man could be arrested for murder in such circumstances. I was rather sceptical about the whole story, especially after I read Woffinden. However, if Foot is right and that is the first time J Ryan came into the picture, it does make one wonder about Ewer's true involvement in these events.

Re Hanratty's family, they must have been saints to put up with such a black sheep. They were obviously decent, hard-working people, horrified by their son's behaviour. Yet, they had so much faith in him. Whatever he had done that they despised, they thought him incapable of cold-blooded murder and rape (well, most people would think their loved ones incapable of such things I would think) and they stood up for him proudly, never giving up. I salute their bravery. What love they must have had for him.

[Graham]

Good post, Limehouse.

JH was never anything other than a callous murderer to me - I do remember the A6 Case very well, and my dad was stopped in a police road-block when he was driving down to Luton. The police just asked the 'usual' questions.

Ponder this - Ewer and Louise Anderson knew each other, and Louise knew JH. Did she also know his alias of 'J Ryan'? Did JH say something to her about the murder, and did she, for whatever reason, pass this on to Ewer? She must have known that Janet Gregsten was his sister-in-law. Armed with this information, did Ewer concoct a story about the dry-cleaners to cover himself, and then inform the police about 'Ryan'? If he did, then it's understandable that he was careful not to mention the name Hanratty to the police, otherwise he'd almost certainly have been hauled in and could have come out of it badly.

Cheers,

Graham

[PUPPYKINS]

Hi people. I thought you might like to see the slideshow wot I made of the A6 murder. It was great fun to put together.The only snag was I couldn't find a pic of Michael Gregsten.
Ian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtPwJf9ojtc.
PS Oh it doesn't matter!

[Graham]

Hi people. I thought you might like to see the slideshow wot I made of the A6 murder. It was great fun to put together.The only snag was I couldn't find a pic of Michael Gregsten.
Ian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtPwJf9ojtc.
PS Oh it doesn't matter!

Great slideshow, Ian. Enjoyed. There's a picture of MG in Paul Foot's book (at least, there is the hardback copy I have) and it's easy to understand why he was very much a ladies' man.

Cheers,

Graham

[Limehouse]

Terrific slideshow Ian. Firstly, VS looked quite fetching in that swimsuit. A much more flattering picture than the ones usually printed of her.

Two things stood out for me particularly. In that first picture of Hanratty his eyes are very striking. They are, just as VS said, saucer like and staring. Secondly, that image just after the newpaper cutting featuring Alphon, is that a composit picture of the killer put together by various descriptions? If so, it looks exactly like Hanratty!

What a good choice of music!

Also striking, the dowdiness of the people in the queue for public seats at the trial! Perhaps it is the black and white photo that makes them look so ancient! I have to come to terms with the fact that, if I was the age I am now back then, I'd look like a pensioner! There was a strict dress code for women of my age back then and it was not the cropped jeans and low-cut (but decent, not plunging) T shirt I am wearing today! Back then, most men wore hats out in public and even my dad wore a tie for work and he was a milk delivery man!

[simon]

Hello all,
I don't think it should be forgotten that Janet contacted Foot in the 80s and told him the 'extraordinary Swiss Cottage sighting' wasn't quite as previously described. And Foot believed her.

I've always liked that Helen Shapiro record. So much better than 'Walking Back To Happiness' !

Cheers,
Simon