a6 murder

[Victor]

Where is your proof/evidence that the jacket was not found ?

Oh dear, asking for proof of negatives again. If you want to open the debate up to the possibility that we are having to trust a bunch of policemen who stated that the jacket was not found then just say it. Or are you looking for actual physical evidence of the non-existance of the jacket.

That proves absolutely nothing. The Court of Appeal leaves a great deal to be desired. A million and one things (or is it a million and two ??) lead me to trusting his claims of innocence.

It proves that there is not enough evidence to grant Hanratty a pardon.

[burkhilly]

Hi All

Am really busy in work at the moment, with a dreaded OFSTED inspection due next week. However, I continue to read the thread each day and am amazed by the logic and knowledge shown by you all. I would say that some of the debating verges on personal insult at times, which is a shame.

The A6 Murder is a mystery, one which most of us enjoy discussing. If you're on the thread, my view is that there are still doubts (Victor excluded), about the conviction.

Despite the DNA evidence, which I've studied at length, I cannot say, with any real conviction, that JH was guilty. I think that possibly the DNA used in the last test could have been contaminated. The operative word is possibly. It is so very easy for cross contamination to occur with DNA matter, there is also the issue of DNA degrading. I'm obviously not an expert but I've now read enough about DNA to see the possible downside of the kind of DNA testing used in this case.

The only other issue that I've been thinking about is the lack of witnesses to JH being in the Slough area of the eventful night, but the apparent abundance of witnesses in Liverpool and Rhyl. Mystery!!!

Just a small note with regards to the eye colour - just a couple of weeks ago I saw an interview with a senior police officer, filmed a couple of hours after the crime had been discovered - he said the murderer has Brown eyes - he said it twice.

[jimornot?]

Hi Vic


Thanks for your reply to my post. You'll remember that I am on the fence so merely speculating. It is was working on a hypothesis that H is actually innocent and so thinking about why PLA could have been the perpetrator.

In fact I'd use it as evidence of the "establishment" having undue influence on Nudds and coercing him to make that statement.

Nudds was a self confirmed liar so is not very credible either way. the appeal notes http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/l...james-hanratty are interesting in that they appear to give his version of events regarding his evidence.

In order to keep straight I have always wanted to help the police with information. When they came to the Vienna Hotel making inquiries about the murder I jumped to the conclusion that they wanted Durrant for the murder. After I and my wife had made our first statements, the police continued to question us and when we had said that Durrant had stayed that night in Room No. 6 this information did not fit in with their investigations. It was then that I decided that I could do myself a good turn by helping the police in an important job by giving them the information they appeared to want. He then made the second statement. However, later, after being further questioned by the police, he thought the matter over and told his wife that it would be necessary for them both to make another statement. He then withdrew the second statement and told his wife what he had said in the third statement, because, he said, he had to make sure that she knew it well before she went to the Yard to make her statement

Don't know if this brings into doubt anything about the fact he and his 'wife' did not collude over the 3rd statement - implies he did.

It certainly indicates he was doing what he could to help the police as they saw fit. Amy chance they coerced him to withdraw the 2nd statement or was that done before the first ID parade?

there's a lot more in those notes and I expect we've raised questions on them before.

Really? You think it more likely that there was a conspiracy or at least a group of people who planned this attack rather than a lone gunman? Those people have successfully kept the news out of the papers for 48 years, no significant leaks

A valid point but if Alphon is to be believed it didn't need a huge group - maybe Mr Ewer only? I don't necessarily subscribe to this anyway but you'll reacll I was merely speculating based on what PLA had said. Interesting that he could take Justice & Fox to the site so clearly (apparently) and I wonder, if that truly happened, how easily one could do so. The same appeal report quoted above indicates

But there is one thing I am quite sure could not have been obtained in that way: that was the exact position of the cornfield ................. The exact location of it was not mentioned at the trial; it was not mentioned in the Press.

Finally Vic, re PLA's bank account, He may well have been showing it to Paul Foot to spice things up as you say but that doesn't explain where it came from. I know the source has been speculated on by us before on this site so not opening old debates (please) but I have never been persuaded by the idaes promoted - hence me raising it as devil's advocate

Must go now - cheers

ATB

Viv

[Victor]

Nudds was a self confirmed liar so is not very credible either way. the appeal notes http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/l...james-hanratty are interesting in that they appear to give his version of events regarding his evidence.

Don't know if this brings into doubt anything about the fact he and his 'wife' did not collude over the 3rd statement - implies he did.

Hi Viv,
I was going from the information in Woffinden, but I don't have my books here at work. That gives a completely different account from what you posted, which appears to have been written in hindsight and casts him in a less corrupt light.

A valid point but if Alphon is to be believed it didn't need a huge group - maybe Mr Ewer only? I don't necessarily subscribe to this anyway but you'll reacll I was merely speculating based on what PLA had said. Interesting that he could take Justice & Fox to the site so clearly (apparently) and I wonder, if that truly happened, how easily one could do so. The same appeal report quoted above indicates

Well, there are possibilities, but not a lot of evidence for them if any.

A question I asked soem time ago, and one that wasn't answered:- "Why couldn't the conspirators include Hanratty?" If Alphon and Hanratty and Ewer plus possibly France, were in it together then Alphon could have scouted the area and maybe dropped Hanratty off at the cornfield, then the sightings of PLA are right, and the DNA is right, and gives some explanation for PLA's money and the offer to "recompense" Mrs Hanratty. It's just one explanation that fits the facts, although I realise it's a conspiracy theory.

Finally Vic, re PLA's bank account, He may well have been showing it to Paul Foot to spice things up as you say but that doesn't explain where it came from. I know the source has been speculated on by us before on this site so not opening old debates (please) but I have never been persuaded by the idaes promoted - hence me raising it as devil's advocate

Well all we can do is speculate, but for me it boils down to:-
1. The money exists.
2. Is there a plausible innocent explanation for it?

And that's where the debate starts, is a gambling win plausible? Some say yes, others No. Proving that he was paid it to kill MG is next to impossible, as there are always reasons like "burgulary proceeds", which admittedly isn't "innocent" but is miles from "assassin's fee".

Just a small note with regards to the eye colour - just a couple of weeks ago I saw an interview with a senior police officer, filmed a couple of hours after the crime had been discovered - he said the murderer has Brown eyes - he said it twice.

Yes, the police did publicise "brown eyes", but there are several explanations for this including:-
1. That's VS description.
2. Someone confused what VS said and the error was publicised.

Now some appear to believe that option 2 is impossible, although that's the explanation that some, including Woffinden, appear to have settled upon.

Despite the DNA evidence, which I've studied at length, I cannot say, with any real conviction, that JH was guilty. I think that possibly the DNA used in the last test could have been contaminated. The operative word is possibly. It is so very easy for cross contamination to occur with DNA matter, there is also the issue of DNA degrading. I'm obviously not an expert but I've now read enough about DNA to see the possible downside of the kind of DNA testing used in this case.

I believe that the possibility of contamination has been eliminated because of the results obtained, and the tricky contamination event which removes the rapists semen from the knicker fragment and replaces it with Hanratty's semen, leaving VS DNA (and maybe MG's) untouched. Now there's a little ambiguity in those conclusions such as MG's DNA profile being "attributed" which means that I'd like to see the actual results from each of the samples tested, but until then I trust the evidence of the expert witnesses from the appeal.

The only other issue that I've been thinking about is the lack of witnesses to JH being in the Slough area of the eventful night, but the apparent abundance of witnesses in Liverpool and Rhyl. Mystery!!!

I'm quite amused by the duplicity of venomously attacking VS identification of Hanratty because IDs are inherently subjective and unreliable and then exaggerating the importance of the Rhyl identifications.

As for Slough, a rural location, not that busy especially at night where the majority of the population are early rising farmers and associated occupations. I'm not too surprised about the lack of information.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

John Kerr said on camera that Valerie Storie told him that they had "picked up a man at Slough". She did not say that they had been hijacked in a cornfileld by a dangerous gunman. Do you think it was a male streetwalker they picked up or a man thumbing a lift (ie. a hitch-hiker).

Hi all,

To me the above quote implies that James believes there are only 2 definitions of "picked up" which are:-
1. Agreed to a sexual liaison.
2. Agreed to transport a hitch-hiker.

So the questionas are:-
Have you ever picked up your partner from work?
Have you ever picked up your child from school?
Have you ever picked up a friend from the airport after their holiday?

Which definition applies in those 3 cases?

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Hi Viv,

Re: sightings (or otherwise) of JH and/or PLA in and around Slough. A few years ago I walked from Taplow Station to the cornfield. It was a hot day, and I must've been mad, but all for a good cause. Now, I am 6'4" tall and in those days I had a moustache like a broom. I wonder if any of the good people whose houses I passed to the cornfield and back again would recognise me? I bet a pound to a pinch of s**t they wouldn't.

Re: Michael Fogarty-Waul saying he saw a man who reminded him of Sidney Tafler (and PLA certainly did resemble Tafler) I just wonder if this revelation was made after MF-W saw Alphon's face in the papers. I also wonder if, like quite a few others at the time, MF-W wanted in on the act, so to speak.

Re: Alphon 'knowing' the location of the cornfield, all I can say to this is that I wouldn't have wanted to rely on the word of someone like Jean Justice if my life depended on it. Very amusing and clever bloke no doubt, but with an impressive imagination in my honest opinion.

Cheers,

Graham

[Victor]

the appeal notes http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/l...james-hanratty

Hi Viv,

I noticed this paragraph from the link you posted...

To your Lordships, it may seem fantastic that anyone should voluntarily and untruthfully declare himself to be a murderer. But the records in the Home Office show that this is by no means uncommon. One can only speculate at the queer motives of a man who makes a false confession of murder. But some of the people involved in this particular story were, as the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, said in another place, queer people—decidedly queer. This particular confession that we have been discussing was not, in fact, the only confession to the murder of Mr. Gregsten that was received. Two other confessions of the same murder actually reached the Home Office. But they were anonymous, and although the police made every effort to discover their authors, they were unsuccessful.

It appears that confessing to murder isn't as rare as I thought. I wonder if anything further was mentioned in those confessions, does anyone know if the text of them is available anywhere?

And of course those are only the ones that reached the Home Office by 4 Aug 1966, maybe there are others.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Vic,

There must have been countless confessions to the Ripper murders over the years.

And I think there was at least two false confessions in the Lizzie Borden Case, and of course the celebrated 'Sunderland Tape' in the Yorkshire Ripper Case.

Cheers,

Graham

[Victor]

There must have been countless confessions to the Ripper murders over the years.

Hi Graham,
So there have, including those from people just about to hang...

And I think there was at least two false confessions in the Lizzie Borden Case, and of course the celebrated 'Sunderland Tape' in the Yorkshire Ripper Case.

Humble, Wearside Jack - of course.

It does seem to undermine the importance of Alphon's confession especially as Alphon was the original suspect, had to face ID parades, interrogation and incarceration whilst he was investigated, no wonder he milked it.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

It does seem to undermine the importance of Alphon's confession especially as Alphon was the original suspect, had to face ID parades, interrogation and incarceration whilst he was investigated, no wonder he milked it.

Who knows, perhaps he stopped to milk a few cows on the way to the cornfield that evening.

After all he was quite partial to a glass of the white stuff

[Graham]

After all he was quite partial to a glass of the white stuff

And even more partial to a few glasses of the black Guinness-stuff courtesy of Justice's then-deep pocket!

The famous Ripper confession was that of Neal Cream who is supposed to have said "I am Jack the - " just as the trap was sprung. At least, according to James Berry the hangman...

Back to PLA, he himself admitted to being scared witless at the prospect of police interrogation and what he'd got himself into. His bold confessing didn't get going until he'd been cleared via the i.d. parade, and until it was obvious Hanratty wasn't going to be reprieved. As far as PLA and the A6 Case is concerned, you couldn't have made it up!

Cheers,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Front page of Mirror 24-08-1961

Hi All,

Just to clear up and clarify the "Hitch-Hiker" controversy I have attached a copy of the Daily Mirror's front page from the day after the murder.
It makes extremely interesting reading, especially the fourth from last paragraph.

The learned Vic would have everyone believe I have been spreading mis-information about this.

regards,
James

[Victor]

Just to clear up and clarify the "Hitch-Hiker" controversy I have attached a copy of the Daily Mirror's front page from the day after the murder.
It makes extremely interesting reading, especially the fourth from last paragraph.

The learned Vic would have everyone believe I have been spreading mis-information about this.

Fair enough James, you've found a source for your mis-information including a reference to "brown eyes", but it's still mis-information that has subsequently been corrected, so why keep spreading it?

And any defence that the Daily Mail never prints mis-information can be countered with this article...http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008...atednewspapers

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Surely if the police were keen to catch the killer they would very quickly have corrected The Daily Mirror's 'misinformation' that the killer had brown eyes? The article also clearly states that 'Miss Storie told dectectives they had picked up a man thumbing a lift'. It is fairly clear to me that the Mirror was quoting from statements made by the police soon after the murder. The evidence for this can be supported by the fact that the police, through this article, were urging the public not to pick up hitch hikers. It is plain that at that stage, the police thought they were searching for a brown-eyed hitch hiker.

[Graham]

Sorry to have to ask, but are you naive enough to believe everything you read in a tabloid newspaper? The tabloids had a field-day with the A6 Case - they couldn't get enough of it. If VS said they'd given a lift to a hitch-hiker, then why by the time of the trial had she changed it to their being held up by a gunman? Do you see some sinister conspiracy in this? Quite simply the bloody paper mis-reported and/or made up its own story. The old Fleet Street byword: never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Also note it was the RAC and not the police who advised motorists not to pick up hitch-hikers.

Just noticed that the Mirror's article said she'd been shot in the chest when in fact she was shot in the back. There you go, more wrong reporting.

Graham