a6 murder

[jimarilyn]

Hi Jimarilyn

The houses in Kinmel Street, Rhyl, were re-numbered in August 1967. Ingledene at the old number 19 became the new number 60. Ingledene is still there today at number 60, directly opposite the Windsor (well it was in December 2008 at least). It is all quite close to the old Crescent Road Bus Station, where the buses from Liverpool used to terminate. This is now a car park (I seem to remember)

The new number 19, on the opposite side of the road to Ingledene, was the Rhyl Conservative Club until quite recently. That is what you took pictures of.

Peter.

Hi Peter,

Firstly, I too would like to echo Tony, Viv and Julie Limewire's (excuse me for pinching your term, Tony) sentiments in saying it's good to have you and Graham back. I know you and Graham are on the other side of the fence so to speak, but you are both intelligent chaps and very knowledgeable about the A6 murder.

Secondly, many thanks for pointing out that Kinmel Street was re-numbered in 1967, something I was totally unaware of when I took my trip to Rhyl. No wonder I had difficulty with trying to locate No. 19.
Kinmel Street as you know is a one way street and it's very difficult to park or stop on, especially with yellow lines and traffic coming at you from behind. I must have actually walked past the front door of No. 60 without the slightest inkling that it was the old No. 19.

I must have driven along Kinmel Street 4 or 5 times trying to make out numbers on buildings. As I was parked at traffic lights I could make out that No. 11 or 13 was on the right hand side (it was a chippie, opposite which was a small barber shop called Sweeney Todd) so I just presumed that Ingledene was a few doors further up on the same side. Is the Windsor Vaults public house (further up still) on the same spot where the Windsor Hotel stood in 1961 ? Also have you any idea at all why the street was re-numbered ?

Here's another view of Kinmel Street by the above mentioned traffic lights...Excuse the bleariness on the right hand side, I must have had too many cokes.

regards,
James

[jimarilyn]

About Kinmel Street

Hi All,

One very important thing to bear in mind about Kinmel Street is that it is literally just a stone's throw from the train station. Any B & B guests would have no difficulty whatsoever hearing trains shunting back and forth. This tallies in very well with Hanratty's statement that he could hear (but not see) trains shunting in and out.

regards,
James

[P.L.A]

Kinmel Street

Hi Jimarilyn

I don’t know anything about the Windsor Vaults. The Windsor Hotel is (or possibly was) on the corner of Windsor Street and Kinmel Street, on the same side as the new number 19 (don’t know when it changed from the Conservative Club to a Careers Advice Centre). By your description of it’s location , my guess is that it has had a name change from the Windsor to Windsor Vaults. The establishment is directly opposite Ingledene.

Certainly, it was the plain Windsor up to probably a few years ago. I was last in Rhyl in December 2008 and drove along Kinmel Street (taking someone to the railway station) and noticed that Ingledene was still there. Didn’t look at the Windsor.

I can’t remember why the houses were re-numbered. I can recollect that the reason is obvious when one looks at the street and takes into account major road changes at the south-west end of the road – but I can’t remember the exact reason that I deduced. Perhaps Tony can enlighten us after his visit. As I say, the reason is obvious when you are there – it’s that I can’t remember what it is.

I don’t think the re-numbering is mentioned in any of the books on the case. Graham probably read it on one of my postings yonks ago.

Peter.

[jimarilyn]

Hello James,

I also remember going to the pictures to see The Guns of Navarone in Rhyl the previous summer just as James Hanratty said he did. Maybe I sat next to him.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

You're gonna hate me for this, but Hanratty said he watched "The Guns of Navarone" (a very exciting war film incidentally) at a Liverpool cinema after returning there from Rhyl on the 24th. I know it was a deliberate mistake on your part, and that you were trying to catch me out !
He said he had originally intended watching Ben-Hur but opted against it as he thought the seats were too expensive. Ben-Hur, by the way, happens to be one of my three favourite films of all time, in fact I watched it for the umpteenth time just over a week ago. An unforgettable film.

regards,
James

[jimarilyn]

Hi Jimarilyn

I don’t know anything about the Windsor Vaults. The Windsor Hotel is (or possibly was) on the corner of Windsor Street and Kinmel Street, on the same side as the new number 19 (don’t know when it changed from the Conservative Club to a Careers Advice Centre). By your description of it’s location , my guess is that it has had a name change from the Windsor to Windsor Vaults. The establishment is directly opposite Ingledene.

Certainly, it was the plain Windsor up to probably a few years ago. I was last in Rhyl in December 2008 and drove along Kinmel Street (taking someone to the railway station) and noticed that Ingledene was still there. Didn’t look at the Windsor.

I can’t remember why the houses were re-numbered. I can recollect that the reason is obvious when one looks at the street and takes into account major road changes at the south-west end of the road – but I can’t remember the exact reason that I deduced. Perhaps Tony can enlighten us after his visit. As I say, the reason is obvious when you are there – it’s that I can’t remember what it is.

I don’t think the re-numbering is mentioned in any of the books on the case. Graham probably read it on one of my postings yonks ago.

Peter.

Hi Peter,

Once again thanks for another illuminating post. The same thought struck me too (afterwards) that The Windsor Hotel had undergone a name change. I only wish I'd known beforehand of the re-numbering of the street. If you Google 'a4e, Rhyl' it confirms that it's address is 17-19 Kinmel Street.

Almost directly opposite there's a Bus Stop (the buses actually stop there for a few minutes) which I walked past. I know definitely now (with hindsight) that I walked past No.60 without realising it.


regards,
James

[Andrew]

There's a pretty good view of Rhyl on www.multimap.com using the 'birds eye view' facility.

regards
Andrew

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

You're gonna hate me for this, but Hanratty said he watched "The Guns of Navarone" (a very exciting war film incidentally) at a Liverpool cinema after returning there from Rhyl on the 24th. I know it was a deliberate mistake on your part, and that you were trying to catch me out !
He said he had originally intended watching Ben-Hur but opted against it as he thought the seats were too expensive. Ben-Hur, by the way, happens to be one of my three favourite films of all time, in fact I watched it for the umpteenth time just over a week ago. An unforgettable film.

regards,
James

I’m sick of being chained to this oar.

Prisoner 41

[jimarilyn]

I’m sick of being chained to this oar.

Prisoner 41

Hi Tony,

Well remembered, I see you are familiar with the film too. They don't make 'em like that anymore, sadly, there's too much special effects and computer generated action scenes.

Re. Prisoner 41, I used to use that particular number quite often when doing the lottery. Haven't done the lottery for abiut 3 years, I got fed up picking the bonus ball all the time and no others.

regards,
james

[jimarilyn]

Good result today for the Owls, Tony. I see Reg scored both your goals.
And there's me talking about buses earlier on !

regards,
James

[Tony]

Good result today for the Owls, Tony. I see Reg scored both your goals.
And there's me talking about buses earlier on !

regards,
James

It wasn’t our very own superhero Reg
But be careful I’m watching you Butler.

Blakey

[reg1965]

It wasn’t our very own superhero Reg
But be careful I’m watching you Butler.

Blakey

How the hell do you know Blakey

I'm very nifty in the area!

Reg

[Graham]

Thanks for the kind comments, people.

With reference to Kinmel Street and the trains, that part of Rhyl is a maze of small, narrow, short streets crammed even today with B&B's. There could be literally dozens of B&B's in which it's possible to 'hear the trains'.

As to the re-numbering of the houses in Kinmel Street (by the way, it's pronounced 'Kummel' locally) if Woffinden didn't refer to it, then it must've been Miller, as I know I read it somewhere at some time.

When I was a regular visitor to Pilkington Glass at nearby St Asaph I'd often drive into Rhyl and have a wander around. Not my favourite place by any means, but like a magnet to any A6-ite, even those of us who don't accept JH's Rhyl Alibi. I can just about remember going to Rhyl for a long weekend holiday when I was about 4 (that would be 1950, I grieve to say), largely because my uncle's car conked out on the way back to Brum. We stayed at a B&B somewhere outside Rhyl, but I can't remember where, only the long walk into Rhyl itself.

Finally, one thing that's bugged me a bit in my long lay-off from this thread: I wonder if there is anyone out there who has first-hand acquaintance of JH and who would be prepared, if he or she could be contacted, to record his or her thoughts, feelings and memories?

Cheers,

Graham

[burkhilly]

Welcome back to Graham - I always enjoyed reading your knowledgable and informative posts.

[Graham]

Welcome back to Graham - I always enjoyed reading your knowledgable and informative posts.

Thanks, Yvonne. Couldn't keep away for ever....

Graham

[larue]

the question of identification

one of the the aspects of the a6 case that has always puzzled and fascinated me, is the question of the identification of the gunman. this question is key to the whole case, and is , in my opinion, the only real evidence that the prosecution had against Hanratty, despite claims by so-called 'experts' relating to the 'overwhelming evidence' that the procecution would present to the jury. Real, in the sense that as testimony, it is considered to be evidence by english justice, as it was given first hand by the witness. If given second hand, of course, it would be labelled hearsay. The witness, was of course, Valerie Storie herself, and although one has complete sympathy for the ordeal she [and others] suffered, and continue to suffer, one cannot help but wonder as to the accuracy of this evidence, bearing in mind that it was uncorroborated, and made by a badly traumatized person.

according to some versions of her testimony, the death car pulled off the main road, into the layby, and was then turned to face back the way it had come, the layby being a dead end [this appears to be supported by the attached pic1 and pic2]. the direction the car was facing is crucially important regarding a later statement in the testimony.

"I could not see his face because he had a handkerchief or something tied irregular-fashion over his nose and, presumably to stop Mike seeing him. While I was facing him, after he'd shot Mike and I was still in the car, another car came up from behind and lit up his face. He seemed to be staring through me. Very large icy-blue eyes. This was the only real proper glimpse I had of him."

how could another car come up from behind in a dead end layby??? and how could a car's headlamps light up a man's face from behind him?, if he was sitting in the rear seat facing forward, and the observer was in the front facing backward??? the man's head would have been in silhouette.

the following things have occured to me:

that section of the A6 had no street lighting then, nor does it now, [according to photographs of the scene], so the ambient light in the area at approx 3.00am must have been really low, even in late summer. how may cars would frequent that stretch of road at approx 3.00am in 1961? what are the odds of such a passing car appearing just at the right moment to light up the man's face? from behind??? As the death car was approx 20-40 feet from the road proper, how much peripheral light would there be to fall on a car in the layby, given that from the 2 attached pics, the layby surface appears to be approx 4 to 6 feet higher than the road surface, and looking at both pics, there is clearly seen, an earth bank which obscures the road in pic1, which would i expect partially obscure a passing car from view when seen from the layby.

according to my latest source of information, until august 31st Valerie Storie had consistently told police that the killer had deep-set brown eyes. On august 31st she was transferred to guy's hospital, london. While she was in the ambulance, bedfordshire police issued a new description of the killer. The man now had large, icy-blue, saucer-like eyes. That's quite a significant change of description.

i am wondering about this change, as approx one month after the crime, Valerie told Acott her memory of the man was fading, but by September 1, the name Hanratty and the address in Sycamore Grove was known to police via their enquiries at the florist, and Acott could have gotten information of James Hanratty's crimes from records, and a full and accurate description of him from the prison service.

some weeks ago, i sat in my car under sodium street lamps, [with pretty good light levels in the car, much the same as in any city high street] talking to my wife. now i know exactly what color my wife's eyes are, but i could honestly not tell for certain, what color they were, even under those fairly good conditions, and that was after staring at them for 8 - 10 seconds from a distance of less than two feet. i therefore cannot believe the testimony relating to the 'glimpse' of the gunman' eyes.

the notion of illumination in a passing car's headlights seems at first to be quite plausible, clever ever, but after cafefully considering the exact circumstances, it seems to me to be impossible, so i wonder why this statement was made at all? i belive that saying that she turned to see who was tapping on the car window at 9.30pm in the cornfield, before any traumatization had occured, might have been far more believable, but then, did the gunman have his back to the setting sun? was there a setting sun that night etc etc.