a6 murder

[Steve]

Alibi Evidence

Hi Jimarilyn

Yes, I believe you are right, he was a guileless and open individual and did apparently normally tell the truth, and yes his behaviour was at odds with that of Alphon. However, I don’t believe that this means he was innocent of the A6 murder. He possibly mentioned his visit to Paddington in case he had been seen there and didn’t want to be caught out in a lie.

As for concrete evidence, a signature in a hotel register or a 100% verified witness sighting would do. Even a used train ticket, which he did not appear to have, or a used cinema ticket, something of that sort, but he apparently could produce nothing to substantiate his alibi. And he was unwilling to give the names and addresses of the people he planned to visit, which made those investigating this part of his alibi conclude that they did not actually exist.

The witness statements you mention are evidence, yes, but bear in mind that some of the identifications of Hanratty came about as a result of the witness being shown a photograph of Hanratty. Also, the left-luggage attendant at Lime Street claimed to remember someone called ‘Ratty’ whilst we know that Hanratty was using the name Ryan at this time.

I think it has generally been accepted that the Rhyl evidence does not prove anything in Hanratty’s favour. The bus from Liverpool arrived in Rhyl after the time of some of the claimed sightings, and the newspaper seller admitted that he made his ‘evidence’ up and wished he had never had anything to do with the case.

Kind regards,
Steve

[richardnunweek]

Hello Guys,
I would say everyone who contributes to this thread, would agree the A6 murder is great conversation and never fails to fuel our imaginations.
However when we get down to the nitty gritty and have to become a jury member , how would we vote.?
My Personal belief is he was Guilty as charged, and he did carry out the murder of Gregson, and rape and attempted murder of Valerie, the motive is not clear, however it would appear he came across the couple by accident and for reasons known only to himself decided to play act some kind of fantasy involving the gun, giving him supreme power over the terrified couple.
This unfortunately went terribly wrong, and a panic stricken Hanratty then went from bad to worse.
Although the expression to 'Grass' is a sin in the underworld, I would say that it would be a certainty that James hanratty would have shopped his grandmother to save his skin, it appears DNA suggests his guilt, and if so to lie repeatedly to his nearest, and dearest as it appears he did , would suggest that Hanratty had very little compassion.
If I had to sum it all up. I would say any remaining family of JH, have had their lifes shattered since that Dna result, and the truth is a pill hard to swallow.
Regards Richard.

[Steve]

Hello Richard

I think you have summed it up quite well.

To answer the question, had I been on the jury and presented with the facts known then, I would not have voted for a gulity verdict. I have wondered from time to time if the general concensus in that jury room was one of doubt about a guilty verdict, but maybe one of the jury members was especially vocal and convincing, a salesman, perhaps, and he managed to convince the others. Or they could even have given in to a stronger viewpoint than their own for as simple a reason as they had had enough and just wanted to go home.

By all accounts it was a verdict no-one expected!

KR
Steve

[larue]

Or they could even have given in to a stronger viewpoint than their own for as simple a reason as they had had enough and just wanted to go home.

now there's a chilling thought. so much for 11 good men and true.

[jimarilyn]

Hi

Yes, a very chilling thought indeed. The majority of that jury wouldn't have liked me, we'd have been on sandwiches and cups of tea until the cows came home.

On a lighter note (or is there some metaphysical significance here) it's very interesting to have a look at some of the songs in theTop 40 chart of late August 1961 :

No1 : "You don't know" by Helen Shapiro.

No40 :"You'll never know" by Shirley Bassey.

No13 :"You always hurt the one you love" by Clarence 'Frogman' Henry.

No30 :"Running scared" by Roy Orbison.

No9 : "Quarter to three" by US Bonds

http://www.everyhit.com/retros/index.php?page=rchart&y1=1961&m1=08&day1=3&y2=1961&m2=08&day2=3&sent=1

(Great website this for music lovers)

[jimarilyn]

Hi again,

The day John F Kennedy was assassinated the Number 1 in the UK charts was that great LFC Anthem "You'll never walk alone" by Gerry and the Pacemakers.

PS: Come on you reds on Wednesday at the Bridge !

[Steve]

Chilling Thought

It is an interesting site - I see The Temperance Seven were in the charts too. That's kind of appropriate seeing as Hanratty didn't drink!

Never having a drink? Now there IS a chilling thought!

[jimarilyn]

Hi Steve,

Not quite right, he did drink water, tea, coffee and the odd lager and lime. His liver must have been in good condition though.

"Quarter to three" by US Bonds (Gary).....really spooky don't you think ?

[Steve]

As Tony Hancock used to say:

'Water, tea, coffee - that's not a DRINK!' even the odd lager and lime would still have made Hanratty a non-drinker.

[jimarilyn]

Guess that makes two of us then.

[larue]

Never having a drink? Now there IS a chilling thought!

nah, i became teetotal in 1994. no problem. giving up smoking was much harder

[jimarilyn]

Just re-reading Bob Woffinden's book again. Excellently and meticulously prepared, it's amazing upon re-reading to find that some potentially vital information escapes you on first reading.

For example there's JH's unreceived (if there's such a word !) and enigmatic letter to Charles France :

"Dear Dixie,

I'm surprised over this difficulty that I'm in although it makes no difference to me, whatever you say will be the truth. In a way I am very glad that you are giving evidence against me as now my solicitor can have facts. You will not think much of me for what I'm about to do and I don't think much of what you are about to do, though it won't make much difference as I'm innocent. "

This letter and his letter to Donald Slack were confiscated by the Home Office for whatever reason. It seems they were written sometime in Mid-November 1961 while JH was on remand at Brixton Prison. Had France received this letter he would have seen for himself JH's comment in the last phrase about his innocence. This would contradict any speculation that CF procured any gun for his friend. So if CF was the person who procured the murder weapon for whom was it intended ?

[Steve]

You have to remember that Hanratty knew the prison system, knew that at the very least his letters would be read by prison staff, possibly censored and probably confiscated.

He could possibly have been writing that letter to Mr Acott, but addressing it to Dixie, knowing that Acott was far more likely to receive the letter than Dixie was. Same with the letter to Slack/Fisher.

[jimarilyn]

Another fascinating piece that I seemed to overlook when I first read Woffinden's book was the fact that on 22nd November (1st day of the magistrate' court hearings) the defence team received a phone call from a certain Mrs Rouch in Marble Arch. This female told the defence that she knew who the real killer was and that he knew Alphon. She said she went to Scotland Yard with her information but was turned away. This woman had recently had a child to the man she had been living with. He warned her not to get involved. The defence was expecting to make arrangements to meet up with her but for some reason she never phoned again.

This must have been all very tantalising for the defence at that crucial time. Was it a genuine caller or was someone trying to stir up some mischief ? As Woffinden points out Rouch is not a common name at all. If it was indeed a hoax caller why would she have chosen such an unusual name when there were so many more obvious choices around ? I wonder how many children were born with the name Rouch in the late summer/early autumn of 1961 in the London area ? Worth checking out.....?

[Steve]

Perhaps it was our frield PLA speaking imitating a female voice?

Yes Rouch is an unusual name and worth checking out, unless of course the child was registered with a different surname, the father's if Mrs Rouch and the father were not married.

And, yes, another fascinating little facet of this case!