a6 murder

[Victor]

I am really glad you found the statements that I had been searching for concerning the positioning of Valerie’s underwear.

Now what does it mean and what significance has it to the DNA evidence?
I have just re-read it half a dozen times and I can not make out why the nurse would say such a thing and go so far as to say it under oath. Maybe I lead too sheltered a life and may need the help of someone like Limehouse to help me out on this one.
But anyone’s thoughts would be appreciated.

Hi Tony,

Combined with the location of the semen stain on the knickers (5" up the back), the sentence "that the state and position of Valerie's knickers indicated that the girl had not been raped in the classical sense of the word." implies that VS was sodomised rather than vaginally penetrated.

Accordingly it has no effect on the DNA evidence.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Hello James,

I am really glad you found the statements that I had been searching for concerning the positioning of Valerie’s underwear.

Now what does it mean and what significance has it to the DNA evidence?
I have just re-read it half a dozen times and I can not make out why the nurse would say such a thing and go so far as to say it under oath. Maybe I lead too sheltered a life and may need the help of someone like Limehouse to help me out on this one.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

This is my third re-reading of Jean Justice's book. I am reading it more slowly this time though as the passage in question obviously hadn't registered strongly enough. It's funny how you can miss certain things when reading at normal speed.

I have great admiration for the late Jean Justice. He fought heroically for almost 30 years (often in the face of great ridicule, resistance and personal danger) to try and prove Hanratty's innocence. He never let up in his efforts and became utterly convinced that Alphon was indeed the A6 murderer.

He attended the whole trial, and along with David Lewes and others must have been impressed enough with Hanratty's demeanour and performance in the witness box (and in the dock) to believe in his innocence. He was in a position each day to witness at first hand the behaviour, bearing and attitude of James Hanratty. Other people it seems have commented on the apparently cocky attitude which Hanratty displayed at times during the trial. Even though cockiness is not an admirable quality it doesn't equate with someone being guilty, far from it.

Justice (along with his brother Frank and Jeremy Fox) spent many a long hour in Alphon's company and all three gradually became convinced that Alphon was Mike Gregsten's murderer.

According to Valerie Storie, the killer ordered her several times to kiss him but each time she refused. With regard to this incident Miss Storie stated.....

"He pointed the gun at me and said, 'If you do not I will count five and then shoot you.' I said, 'Please don't shoot me. Just let me go.' But he started to count, so I allowed him to kiss me very briefly. After that had happened, I sat back in the car. The gun was in his right hand, as it had been the whole evening. I leaned across with my left hand. I tried to grab the gun. He was too strong. He said, 'That was a silly thing to do. I thought you were sensible. I cannot trust you now... Come and sit in the back of the car with me. I will count five. If you have not got in, I will shoot.' ""

This repeated phrase "I will count five" is I believe very significant.

In his book Justice points out that it was a favourite expression of Alphon's and illustrates just a couple of incidents when Alphon used it....
"Once, when I was alone in a room with him, he ordered me to write, 'Alphon is a filthy murderer.' When I hesitated, he said, 'I will count five.' On another occasion I would not let him into my flat and he threatened to break down the door if I did not open it. He used exactly the same words, 'I will count five.' Then again, I have frequently heard him say, 'That was a silly thing to do' and 'I thought you were sensible.'"

Just a coincidence ??


regards,
James

[Victor]

I have great admiration for the late Jean Justice. He fought heroically for almost 30 years (often in the face of great ridicule, resistance and personal danger) to try and prove Hanratty's innocence. He never let up in his efforts and became utterly convinced that Alphon was indeed the A6 murderer.

I have very little admiration for Jean Justice, he seems to have polluted the investigation at almost every turn.

I suspect he was the source of Alphon's unaccounted £5,000
I suspect he was instrumental in instigating the Alphon assault on Mrs Hanratty
I suspect he deserved to be sectioned
I suspect he manipulated his brother and Fox to implicate Alphon in whatever way they could, not just legally.

But that's just my opinion, I have no way of proving it, but it dovetails very nicely with fact that the DNA proves Alphon innocent and Hanratty guilty.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

I have very little admiration for Jean Justice, he seems to have polluted the investigation at almost every turn.

I suspect he was the source of Alphon's unaccounted £5,000

It just goes to show how wrong you can be. Methinks you need to do your homework more carefully (Paul Foot's book pages 390-392) as Alphon only met Jean Justice for the first time on February 11th 1962, a full 4 months after Alphon's initial payment of £750 into his deposit account on October 9th 1961. A further £2550 was paid into this particular account in 8 instalments between October 24th and November 24th.

November 24th was the last payment into Alphon's deposit account.
During the same period of time £2050 was paid into his current account (not transferred from his deposit account incidentally).

The only payments into Alphon's account after February 11th were £150 on February 23rd and £120 on March 2nd

As Paul Foot says in his book, almost £7,600 was paid into Alphon's two bank accounts between October 1961 and June 1962, the vast majority of it in the first 10 weeks, a full month and a half before Alphon met Justice.


£7,600 equates to at least £150,000 in today's money, a sobering thought indeed. Slightly more profitable perhaps than selling Old Moore's Almanacs on the Streets of London, eh Ralph ?


KP,
James

[Limehouse]

Hello James,

Watched your contributions on Youtube over the weekend and really enjoyed the programme; it was very sad for everyone concerned.

I am really glad you found the statements that I had been searching for concerning the positioning of Valerie’s underwear.

Now what does it mean and what significance has it to the DNA evidence?
I have just re-read it half a dozen times and I can not make out why the nurse would say such a thing and go so far as to say it under oath. Maybe I lead too sheltered a life and may need the help of someone like Limehouse to help me out on this one.
But anyone’s thoughts would be appreciated.

Tony.

Good evening Tony and all,

I too think this is a very strange comment for a nurse to make, especially under oath. It is likely that a nurse would have had some experience of dealing with women who had been raped but I find it disturbing that this nurse thought it appropriate to speculate on whether it was a 'classical' rape or not. Perhaps, as Victor has suggested, the rape was carried out from behind and VS was too traumatised to mention this. If that was the case, it doesn't make it any less a rape in my opinion. I find it very unlikely that it was sodomy as it would have been quite difficult to achieve in the space given and it would also almost certainly have caused injuries that would have prompted comments from the doctors who examined her.

Regards

Julie

Perhaps it would have been sensible to ask VS about the position of her underwear?

[Tony]

I have very little admiration for Jean Justice, he seems to have polluted the investigation at almost every turn.

I suspect he was the source of Alphon's unaccounted £5,000
I suspect he was instrumental in instigating the Alphon assault on Mrs Hanratty
I suspect he deserved to be sectioned
I suspect he manipulated his brother and Fox to implicate Alphon in whatever way they could, not just legally.

But that's just my opinion, I have no way of proving it, but it dovetails very nicely with fact that the DNA proves Alphon innocent and Hanratty guilty.

KR,
Vic.

Hello Victor,

I do not know who you are or how long you have been interested in this case and to be honest it does not matter.
What does intrigue me, however, is your apparent hatred of James Hanratty and his supporters. I am also passionate about this case but I do not have any loathing or ill feelings towards France, Ewer, Langdale, Anderson, Acott, Oxford or any of the prosecution witnesses including Valerie Storie. I do not try to belittle Blom-Cooper or Hawser, I have little time for Miller. I do not condemn them for their efforts but I do like to debate their respective inputs in the case.

I refer to your posting number 3333 and it’s no use putting “I suspect” in front of each of your statements.
Your attack on Jean Justice is unfair in my opinion. As James rightly says he was passionate about the case and at the end of the day, if it wasn’t for him the case would have been long forgotten. He deserves much credit for his efforts whether he was right or wrong and whether you like it or not.

He was not the source of Alphon’s £5,000. Your suspicion is nonsense.

You say he was instrumental in instigating the Alphon assault on Mrs Hanratty. Yet only last week you implied he did not assault Mrs Hanratty because he was never found guilty. Do you want it both ways?

What leads you to suspect that he ‘deserved’ to be sectioned?

What leads you to believe that he manipulated his brother and Fox to implicate Alphon?

I honestly think you are too personal in your condemnations of every person who has ever said anything in Hanratty’s defence. I do not know why you debate in this fashion. It does you little credit. I also do not think you are Miller by the way.

I’m not trying to cause another argument by the way; we have lost too many valued contributors by doing just that.

Tony.

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

This is my third re-reading of Jean Justice's book. I am reading it more slowly this time though as the passage in question obviously hadn't registered strongly enough. It's funny how you can miss certain things when reading at normal speed.

I have great admiration for the late Jean Justice. He fought heroically for almost 30 years (often in the face of great ridicule, resistance and personal danger) to try and prove Hanratty's innocence. He never let up in his efforts and became utterly convinced that Alphon was indeed the A6 murderer.

He attended the whole trial, and along with David Lewes and others must have been impressed enough with Hanratty's demeanour and performance in the witness box (and in the dock) to believe in his innocence. He was in a position each day to witness at first hand the behaviour, bearing and attitude of James Hanratty. Other people it seems have commented on the apparently cocky attitude which Hanratty displayed at times during the trial. Even though cockiness is not an admirable quality it doesn't equate with someone being guilty, far from it.

Justice (along with his brother Frank and Jeremy Fox) spent many a long hour in Alphon's company and all three gradually became convinced that Alphon was Mike Gregsten's murderer.

According to Valerie Storie, the killer ordered her several times to kiss him but each time she refused. With regard to this incident Miss Storie stated.....

"He pointed the gun at me and said, 'If you do not I will count five and then shoot you.' I said, 'Please don't shoot me. Just let me go.' But he started to count, so I allowed him to kiss me very briefly. After that had happened, I sat back in the car. The gun was in his right hand, as it had been the whole evening. I leaned across with my left hand. I tried to grab the gun. He was too strong. He said, 'That was a silly thing to do. I thought you were sensible. I cannot trust you now... Come and sit in the back of the car with me. I will count five. If you have not got in, I will shoot.' ""

This repeated phrase "I will count five" is I believe very significant.

In his book Justice points out that it was a favourite expression of Alphon's and illustrates just a couple of incidents when Alphon used it....
"Once, when I was alone in a room with him, he ordered me to write, 'Alphon is a filthy murderer.' When I hesitated, he said, 'I will count five.' On another occasion I would not let him into my flat and he threatened to break down the door if I did not open it. He used exactly the same words, 'I will count five.' Then again, I have frequently heard him say, 'That was a silly thing to do' and 'I thought you were sensible.'"

Just a coincidence ??


regards,
James

Hello James,

The phrase “I’ll count to five” is very telling.

I believe Mr Alphon is on tape saying this.

The usual phrase usually goes either: “I’ll count to three” or “I’ll count to ten”

Five? A bit out of the ordinary in my book.

Tony.

[Tony]

Good evening Tony and all,

I too think this is a very strange comment for a nurse to make, especially under oath. It is likely that a nurse would have had some experience of dealing with women who had been raped but I find it disturbing that this nurse thought it appropriate to speculate on whether it was a 'classical' rape or not. Perhaps, as Victor has suggested, the rape was carried out from behind and VS was too traumatised to mention this. If that was the case, it doesn't make it any less a rape in my opinion. I find it very unlikely that it was sodomy as it would have been quite difficult to achieve in the space given and it would also almost certainly have caused injuries that would have prompted comments from the doctors who examined her.

Regards

Julie

Perhaps it would have been sensible to ask VS about the position of her underwear?

Hello Julie,

Thank you for your reply to my question.

I agree with you that whatever happened in the car it was a certain case of rape.

I don’t want to get into hot water with anyone on this and it is a rather delicate subject; but supposing Victor is correct, well supposing, then wouldn’t this form of sexual assault fit the profile of Mr Alphon rather more that Mr Hanratty?

It has always been acknowledged that Hanratty was a heterosexual male with ‘normal’ urges and practices whereas Mr Alphon is always thought to have been homosexual.

I am not trying to offend anyone on here with this by the way. and if I have done I apologise in advance.

Tony.

[Victor]

I too think this is a very strange comment for a nurse to make, especially under oath. It is likely that a nurse would have had some experience of dealing with women who had been raped but I find it disturbing that this nurse thought it appropriate to speculate on whether it was a 'classical' rape or not.

Hi Julie,
I agree it's a strange comment, but I don't think all nurses had the experience you refer to.

Perhaps, as Victor has suggested, the rape was carried out from behind and VS was too traumatised to mention this. If that was the case, it doesn't make it any less a rape in my opinion.

Absolutely agree here.

I find it very unlikely that it was sodomy as it would have been quite difficult to achieve in the space given and it would also almost certainly have caused injuries that would have prompted comments from the doctors who examined her.

This comment I don't understand at all. Difficult to achieve? I don't see why sodomy would require more space, nor why it would "almost certainly" cause injury, nor why the doctors would comment when the major injuries would be the bullet wounds.

Perhaps it would have been sensible to ask VS about the position of her underwear?

That would've helped resolve this issue, but is it relevant? It's a minor factor in a hideous ordeal for her.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

What does intrigue me, however, is your apparent hatred of James Hanratty and his supporters. I am also passionate about this case but I do not have any loathing or ill feelings towards France, Ewer, Langdale, Anderson, Acott, Oxford or any of the prosecution witnesses including Valerie Storie. I do not try to belittle Blom-Cooper or Hawser, I have little time for Miller. I do not condemn them for their efforts but I do like to debate their respective inputs in the case.

Hi Tony,
I have no respect for Hanratty because he is a muderous rapist. I have no issue with people who support him unless they manipulate facts or denigrate innocent people, such as VS. My major beef is with people like Reg who are prepared to rip VS apart just because there are minor changes between the various statements she has made. I see her very much as the victim here, a victim of rape, a victim of attempted murder, a victim of life-changing injuries. To suggest that she is somehow manipulating her evidence to implicate anyone is contemptibile.

People's attitudes towards the other characters surprise me. I do not see a great deal of difference between the characters of France, Alphon, Hanratty, Langdale, Anderson or Evans - all guilty of criminal activity, other than the fact that Hanratty raped and killed.

I refer to your posting number 3333 and it’s no use putting “I suspect” in front of each of your statements.

I deliberately put "I suspect" because there is no solid evidence...

Your attack on Jean Justice is unfair in my opinion. As James rightly says he was passionate about the case and at the end of the day, if it wasn’t for him the case would have been long forgotten. He deserves much credit for his efforts whether he was right or wrong and whether you like it or not.

I admire the passion he had, but he was wrong, and I think he was prepared to do wrong to prove himself right. We know he tried to set Alphon up and coerce a confession from him. It's my opinion that if he had not tried to interfere then it wouldn't be as messy as it is. Alphon played him for all he could get out of him, and rightly so.

He was not the source of Alphon’s £5,000. Your suspicion is nonsense.

And whose word do we have to trust to accept that?

You say he was instrumental in instigating the Alphon assault on Mrs Hanratty. Yet only last week you implied he did not assault Mrs Hanratty because he was never found guilty. Do you want it both ways?

I believe he goaded Alphon, and wound him up, and that a confrontation was inevitable. This entrapment of Alphon means that Alphon is not guilty and was found so by the courts.

What leads you to suspect that he ‘deserved’ to be sectioned?

His obsessions. His refusal to accept the truth. His pre-occupation and unwillingness to let be.

Of course if he'd been right then this tenacity would be what people admire him for, but he was wrong.

What leads you to believe that he manipulated his brother and Fox to implicate Alphon?

Foot and Woffinden virtually say this. He was the driving force behind the "Half Moon St Irregulars" of which they were members and they were wrong.

I honestly think you are too personal in your condemnations of every person who has ever said anything in Hanratty’s defence. I do not know why you debate in this fashion. It does you little credit. I also do not think you are Miller by the way.

I know I can be blunt and say things which others view as condemnations, whereas I judge people very infrequently. I do not care about anyones beliefs, I only care when their actions cause harm to others.

I’m not trying to cause another argument by the way; we have lost too many valued contributors by doing just that.

Argument is fine.
Disagreement is good and usually constructive.
Violence is wrong.
Intimidation is futile when verbal, and cowardly when physical.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I don’t want to get into hot water with anyone on this and it is a rather delicate subject; but supposing Victor is correct, well supposing, then wouldn’t this form of sexual assault fit the profile of Mr Alphon rather more that Mr Hanratty?

Hi again Tony,

I think you are heading into lukewarm water at least.

There is no correlation between sexuality and preponderance to sodomy. I know a number of women who prefer it.

There is no proof concerning Alphon's sexuality - Foot and Woffinden both mention Alphon's homophobia, although they imply this may be a consequence of his political beliefs rather than his sexuality. And of course he knew Justice and Fox's sexuality and continued to interact with them, although this may be "using" them for personal gain.

And of course it's only mentioned by one nurse, so lacks corroboration.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

The phrase “I’ll count to five” is very telling.

I believe Mr Alphon is on tape saying this.

The usual phrase usually goes either: “I’ll count to three” or “I’ll count to ten”

Five? A bit out of the ordinary in my book.

Hi James, Tony,

Why is that so important? More important that Alphon's cockney accent? What about use fo the word "kip"?

Tape-recording drunken conversations and drunken phone calls late at night proves nothing.

Could anything scream "ENTRAPMENT" any louder?

The reason that Alphon used those phrases whilst drunk is because he was encouraged to do so by Justice, nothing further can be inferred than that. No court on this planet would accept evidence as corrupt as that, Justice has effectively destroyed the evidential value of that line of enquiry, which is what I meant when I used the phrase "polluted the investigation".

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Hi All,

Just an observation here. I'm not an argumentative person by nature but some posts just defy belief and are not worth the time and effort in responding to. The person I'm referring to is deliberately provocative, knows who he is and his recent posts are becoming more ridiculous by the day.

regards,
James

[Victor]

Just an observation here. I'm not an argumentative person by nature but some posts just defy belief and are not worth the time and effort in responding to. The person I'm referring to is deliberately provocative, knows who he is and his recent posts are becoming more ridiculous by the day.

Hi James,

If you are referring to me then what are you calling ridiculous? There are a number of claims in the previous few posts and I can't tell which you would consider most unreasonable. Each point I've made can easily be defended so which bit upsets you the most?

Or are you just throwing your rattle out of the pram so you can have a good cry?

KR,
Vic.

[burkhilly]

I thought this thread was to debate the facts and fiction in the Hanratty case. There seems to me that there are a lot of uncalled insults going on.

The insults are spoiling the thread for me. I don't mind a bit of heated debate, but insults are childish. Everyone has different opinions on JH. The fact is that we on this thread only know about the A6 Murder because of what we've read about or seen on TV. None of us were involved during the early 60s - we've no idea what people really thought, given the different values at that time.

Some believe without a doubt that JH was guilty, whilst others are convinced of his innocence.

Let's get back to debate and enjoy the thread.

Thanks!