a6 murder

[Victor]

As far as I am aware nobody else was subsequently charged in connection with this dreadful and vicious attack on Mrs Dalal. Did the police pursue further investigation into this crime I wonder ? If not, why ?

Hi James,

As I've said before, the police tend to view any crime where they have pressed charges as "solved" regardless of the result of the court proceedings, so unless they received a subsequent complaint or enquiry then it probably wasn't investigated further.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

The stress of the 1st parade argument does not really hold up if Clark looks nothing like Hanratty. It does, if he does looklike Hanratty.

Hi John,
VS physical, mental and emotional states have been mentioned quite frequently in regard to the identification so I won't go into it again.

I am sure that the prosecution would have produced him if he looked like Hanratty to show that VS had been reasonably consistent in her identifications.

If he was available, if he was contactable...So there's a couple of reasons why he wasn't produced.

The Clark photo is the most single powerful aspect left that can nail it or leave it wide open. Thus I doubt that anyone will see it!!

It'd be useful, certainly, but hardly conclusive. And of course would have to be comtemporary with the crime.

Also I do not think he made a mistake re Paddington thinking it was Euston.
He had travelled too much to Liverpool to make that error.

Does this mean you think it's another of his lies?

KR,
Vic.

[Tony]

You're not on Vic.

Hello Vic,

You really are scraping the barrel these days. You are certainly much better than some of your responses of recent days. I hope you are well.

Your response to a new contributor, John must leave him as perplexed as I am.

When he enquires about the non-revealing of Michael Clark in Court which I think was one of Michael Sherrard’s biggest errors you reply thus:

“If he was available, if he was contactable...So there's a couple of reasons why he wasn't produced.”
I am sorry but that is not two reasons; it is not even one.

If you were on trial for your life, and whether guilty or not, and you knew the witness had identified another man you would instruct your brief to go and have a look at him.

If asked Justice Gorman would have instructed Acott to bring him into court. There would have been no such excuse as: ‘not available’ or ‘not contactable’. A man’s life was at stake for God’s sake.
And by the way in sworn evidence Valerie Storie stated Michael Clark bore a strong resemblance to Peter Alphon.

Don’t let’s argue just for the sake of it. Had it been you with all your eloquence you would probably had the trial adjourned until Clark was produced and it would have certainly been the next day. Do you seriously think he was identified and the police said “Thanks very much, off you go, don’t bother leaving any details where we can contact you and we don’t think the defence will be interested either”

Come on Vic. Play the game.

Tony.

[Rob63]

In Woffinden (1997, pps444-5) following artefacts discovered during the CCRC investgation into the case in the late 90's it appears that Nudds told a fellow prisoner that Hanratty was innocent. Nudds also acquired a gun in the late 50's and was a police informer who was passing information to the police about illegal gun deals.

So can we look at Nudds as more than a dodgy witness in this case, as a sort of missing link. As far as I know he`s the only person involved in the case who has a documentable connection to firearms ?

Anyone who wants to try and find out what Michael Clark looked like could try this link, there are a few people who served at Northwood around the time of the case. http://www.forcesreunited.org.uk/nam...Middlesex.html

[jimarilyn]

As for going to Paddington no one knows why he went there? It is possible that he thought that he had left some luggage there and realised that he was mistaken. Who knows?

Hi Reg,

I find it revealing that it was Hanratty, himself, who pointed out to Acott that he went to Paddington Station by mistake after leaving the Vienna.
It would have been far easier for him not to have mentioned Paddington at all, he could have said he went straight to Euston Station. I think this says a great deal about Hanratty's basic candour and frankness.
I believe if he had had anything to hide or cover-up he would have said he went straight to Euston Station after leaving the Vienna.
It is uncertain just how many train journeys he made from Euston to Liverpool between late March 1961 and August 1961.
My own feeling for what it's worth would be two at the most, August 22nd and possibly sometime between late March and April 13th ( the day he started 3 months work as a window cleaner with his father ).

regards,
James


PS. Welcome John, our latest contributor. Hope you're not another one-off poster.

[reg1965]

Hi Reg,

I find it revealing that it was Hanratty, himself, who pointed out to Acott that he went to Paddington Station by mistake after leaving the Vienna.
It would have been far easier for him not to have mentioned Paddington at all, he could have said he went straight to Euston Station. I think this says a great deal about Hanratty's basic candour and frankness.
I believe if he had had anything to hide or cover-up he would have said he went straight to Euston Station after leaving the Vienna.
It is uncertain just how many train journeys he made from Euston to Liverpool between late March 1961 and August 1961.
My own feeling for what it's worth would be two at the most, August 22nd and possibly sometime between late March and April 13th ( the day he started 3 months work as a window cleaner with his father ).

Hi James
Glad to see you back again and fighting fit.

Hanratty was always fairly candid about certain elements of the case that eventually told against him. Hanky, back seats of buses etc. Even the change of alibi was candid enough to show that he was trying to tell the truth.

He was certainly guilty of being naive enough to believe that fences in Liverpool would stand him an alibi. Being innocent he didn't think that he would even stand trial let alone be convicted at that time. As the case started to turn against him he changed it to the truth of being in Rhyl.

He himself explained the reason why he didn't go back to Rhyl when he had an opportunity to do so just before his arrest. He said that he could hardly have trawled the back streets of Rhyl asking for people to come forward when he was seemingly, a man wanted for murder.

BTW how did Hanratty get to Rhyl in July, when he met Terry Evans. By train or car or what? Does anyone know?

Cheers mate
Reg

[jimarilyn]

BTW how did Hanratty get to Rhyl in July, when he met Terry Evans. By train or car or what? Does anyone know?

Hi Reg,

Thanks for your kind comments.
See Post 2107.


regards,
James

[Tony]

Post 2107

Hi All,

Personally speaking I find the Rhyl alibi very very persuasive and convincing. The nine main Rhyl witnesses, Terry Evans, Grace Jones, Brenda Harris, Margaret Walker, Ivy Vincent, Betty Davies, Christopher Larman, Trevor Dutton and Charlie Jones had no axe to grind with anyone. Their statements and testimony very much have the ring of truth about them. A young man looking remarkably like James Hanratty was wandering the streets of Rhyl on the evening of August 22nd 1961 looking for bed and breakfast accommodation. He was also trying to find a certain Terry Evans who worked at the funfair there. He also trying to sell a gold watch. Some people on this thread however would have us believe that Hanratty was remembering an earlier visit he had paid to Rhyl.

Let's examine Hanratty's movements from late March 1961 to August 21st.........

James Hanratty was released from Strangeways prison in Manchester on March 24th 1961. He spent a few days at home and then went off to Middlesborough where he obtained work at British Steel. He was there for only a week and returned to the family home on April 13th.

From April to July 13th he works alongside his father, James senior, as a window cleaner. Suddenly, on July 13th while his parents are still on holiday at Southsea he quits his window cleaning job and heads for the bright lights of Central London and the attractions of Soho. It's not long before he resumes his housebreaking and car thieving activities. He bumps into an old acquaintance, Charles France, who he hasn't seen in over three years and they renew their friendship. He stays on several occasions at the France family home.

Around midnight on Friday July 21st he steals (with the help of a friend) a Ford Consul. They drive north and stop off in Birmingham to sell the spare wheel so they can buy some petrol. They get as far as Shrewsbury Town Centre where the car gets a puncture. A policeman notices them and walks over to them, he becomes suspicious and asks Hanratty for his driving licence.
Hanratty scarpers from the scene, leaving the policeman holding his mate. He eventually makes good his escape after eluding a couple more policemen.

He eventually ends up in Cardiff, after hitching a couple of rides from lorry drivers. He obtains accommodation for the night there at a Salvation army hostel. First thing the following morning he goes to the Labour Exchange and obtains a new National Insurance Card. He walks some distance out of Cardiff and is given a lift from a lorry driver heading north. The following day he gets another lorry lift which takes him to the outskirts of Liverpool.

By this time he has only a few shillings left so he decides to burgle a house in Crosby (suburb of Liverpool). He steals a large amount of silver for which he is paid 25 shillings from a Liverpool jeweller.

Having a predilection for funfairs he decides to take a bus to Rhyl where he arrives early Tuesday evening, July 25th. This then is his first visit to Rhyl. This is when he makes the acquaintance of Terry Evans. Evans obtains work for Hanratty on the dodgems where he works for the next few hours as an attendant. At the end of the night Evans puts Hanratty up in his council house where he beds down on the living room sofa. Seeing the condition of Hanratty's worn down shoes Evans loans him a pair of his own recently acquired shoes. Next morning (July 26th) after breakfast, Evans drops his new friend off at the fairground while he attends a court summons. Hanratty, still wearing Evans's shoes, decides dodgems work is not to his liking and heads back to Liverpool. This is a very important point. Hanratty's first visit to Rhyl does not involve him hanging around the resort looking for bed and breakfast accommodation from Mrs Grace Jones, Mrs Margaret Walker, Mrs Ivy Vincent or Mrs Betty Davies. He spends just one night at Rhyl, as the guest of a newly made friend, Terry Evans.

On the evening of July 26th in Liverpool Hanratty is confronted by two men intent on mugging him. A scuffle ensues, fortunately for Hanratty some people appear on the scene and his attackers leg it away. The police are called to the scene and Hanratty is carried into a police-box on Lime Street.
His knee being injured in the scuffle, an ambulance is called and takes him to hospital for treatment. After his wounds are dressed Hanratty spends the night in a hostel where he pays 4 shillings for a bed.

The next morning, July 27th, Hanratty sells a silver lighter and a few other items stolen from the burglary in Crosby a couple of days earlier. He now has enough money for the train journey back to London. He turns up at the Frances where again he spends several nights. He also stays some nights at the home of Louise Anderson whose acquaintance he had made sometime in July. He spends the bank holiday weekend at the Frances (August 5th, 6th and 7th) during which Carole France dyes his hair black.

Hanratty's movements from this point on are accounted for, he resumed his house-breaking activities, took Louise Anderson out to dinner on Sunday, August 13th, spent some nights at her home, bumped into his cousin Eileen Cunningham in Willesden on August 17th (on which occasion she hardly recognised him owing to his jet-black dyed hair) and went on a date with Ann Pryce whom he had met at the Rehearsal Club in July. On Friday, August 18th,
he picked up his Hepworth suit from Burnt Oak. That weekend he stayed at Louise Anderson's. He called in at the Frances on Saturday (19th) to ask if Charlotte France could wash his suitcase full of dirty clothing and re-pack his case as he was intending to go to Liverpool on the Monday (21st).

So for those who suggest that James Hanratty was remembering (and describing in some detail) a previous visit to Rhyl, when exactly was this visit ?



PS. Excuse the length of this post

Yes James I know you are to modest to repeat your own post but I will happily do it.
It is one of the most thoroughly researched to have appeared on here.

One thing I would add is that the Rhyl witnesses were only in Rhyl at the same time on one occasion around that time; and that is the day JH was searching for digs.

Tony.

[reg1965]

I am fed up with duelling with idiots like Caz and Victor on the DNA thread so take a look at this:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/the-murky-world-of-dna-evidence-13477716.html

One law for the rich (or socially connected) one for the poor (or Irish)!

Cheers
Reg

[jimornot?]

I

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/the-murky-world-of-dna-evidence-13477716.html

One law for the rich (or socially connected) one for the poor (or Irish)!

Cheers
Reg

hi Reg

To me, this certainly adds a lot of weight to the arguments you in particular have continuously put forward . It would seem that the DNA evidence is the thing that has changed many perspectives - certainly mine. Cases that begin to cast doubt on the value of the LCN DNA tests emphasise the need for supporting evidence to be strong as the CPS apparently make clear. I wonder how confident people are in the supporting evidence to convict Hanratty as, assuming have not misinterpreted previous posts, it appears quite a few felt it was a doubtful verdict which has only been vindicated later (or not, as the case may be) .

Irrespective of whodunit, I can’t comprehend the apparent lack of forensics in the car – would it really be possible to clean it up so thoroughly – whether by JH or someone else? Or was this simply lack of care at the time – which seems very negligent when pathologists such as Spilsbury had built huge reputations based on forensics (he was knighted for this back in 1927).

all the best

Viv

[jimornot?]

[QUOTE=Limehouse;60910]Hi All,
.... Now back to the car. When found, was the duffle bag of washing still in the car? Did the killer take the bag to more easily transport the gun and the cartridges? More to the point, if the car was clean of everything except blood, was it taken somewhere quiet so that fibres and hairs etc could be removed? Hanratty was careful not to leave finger prints at his robberies but did he take the time to remove fibres and hairs? Would he have thought that far? ............... QUOTE]

Hi Limehouse

Sorry, I missed this excellent post. Your questions on the cleaning of the car are very pertinent and as I just asked, how possible is it to clean the car that thoroughly especially within a bare few hours after an horrifc murder?

best wishes

Viv

[blue moon]

In Woffinden (1997, pps444-5) following artefacts discovered during the CCRC investgation into the case in the late 90's it appears that Nudds told a fellow prisoner that Hanratty was innocent. Nudds also acquired a gun in the late 50's and was a police informer who was passing information to the police about illegal gun deals.

In reply to this statement i would like to correct you in saying that William Nutzlader wasn't the police informer nor did he have dealings in firearms the man who you have got your wires crossed with is Roy Laingsdowne (sorry if spelling is inaccurate) aka langy, he was a well known police informer and petty crook he came from the kilburn area of queens park he now recides in spain, he told police that Hanratty had told him in confession that he murdered Gregson this was complete nonsense as Laingsdowne was a born liar he told police this infomation to shorten a sentence that he was serving. I personally know that Nutzlader was in bostel at the time and had no dealings whatsoever with guns or with this case.
I would also like to inform you all that John Russell was the brother of Mrs France and good pal to Dixie France, John died around 6 years ago.

[Limehouse]

Hi Bluemoon,

Are William Nudds and William Nutzlader even the same person?

I ask because you say 'Nudds was in Borstel at the time' and had 'no connection with guns at all or this case'. Surely Nudds was far to old to have been in Borstel in the time between the murder and Hanratty's execution? And anyway, it is proven that he was working at the Vienna hotel. Additionally, he clearly did have a connection to the case because he was the person who informed police that 'J Ryan' (the name Hanratty booked in under) had stayed in room 24. He was also questioned at length about the movements and behaviour of the first suspect, 'Frederick Durrant' (alias Peter Louis Alphon') who also stayed at the hotel. In fact, Nudds made several conflicting statements about Alphon's movements and behaviour at the crucial time and ultimately ended up giving Alphon an alibi.

To me, if there was a conspiracy and a frame up, Nudds was likely to have played a central role in it.

[Limehouse]

[QUOTE=jimornot?;61204]

Hi All,
.... Now back to the car. When found, was the duffle bag of washing still in the car? Did the killer take the bag to more easily transport the gun and the cartridges? More to the point, if the car was clean of everything except blood, was it taken somewhere quiet so that fibres and hairs etc could be removed? Hanratty was careful not to leave finger prints at his robberies but did he take the time to remove fibres and hairs? Would he have thought that far? ............... QUOTE]

Hi Limehouse

Sorry, I missed this excellent post. Your questions on the cleaning of the car are very pertinent and as I just asked, how possible is it to clean the car that thoroughly especially within a bare few hours after an horrifc murder?

best wishes

Viv

Hi Viv,

This point has been discussed often on this thread. At one time I posed the possibility that the police forensic team had simply not done a very thorough job in searching for fibres, hairs, skin cells etc. However, in such a shocking case, where there is a likelyhood that such a criminal will strike again, it is hard to believe that a thorough forensic job was not carried out.

As I have stated previously, all of the physical evidence against Hanratty was found external to the murder scene or many years after the event. The gun and cartridges on the bus, along with Hanratty's hanky, could have been planted. The cartridges at the Vienna hotel could certainly have been planted. The DNA evidence could certainly be flawed (but that would not have been the result of a conspiracy). But the one thing that could not be planted was a fibre from the suit Hanratty was wearing on the night - especially if he was many miles away.

We might be tempted to conclude, therefore, that someone attempting to blame an innocent Hanratty for the crime gained access to the car in the early hours of the morning following the crime and made a very thorough wipe of the inside (perhaps using sellotape) so that no one elses incriminating evidence was found. However, there are flaws to this theory. Firstly, if it was someone close to Hanratty (such as those that have been mentioned) why did they not 'plant' some hairs? They would not have been so difficult to obtain. Additionally, how could those involved in such a frame up be sure that Hanratty would not be able to produce dozens of people and even physical evidence to conclusively prove he was miles away? On the other hand, it is difficult to explain why no physical evidence of anyone likely to have been the murderer was found at the scene.

I can only clonclude that the reason may have been a combination of factors. The murderer (or someone) made quite a thorough wipe of the inside of the car shortly after the crime. Following that, the forensic team did a less than thorough search for fibres, hairs, fluids, skin cless etc. Of all the things that make me doubt Hanratty's guilt, the fact that all of the physical evidence that links him to the crime was external to the crime scene worries me the most.

[Rob63]

A few crossed wires I think. William Nudds was the owner of the Vienna hotel where the two spent cartridges were found, William Nutzlader Jr. was the chap Carole France married in 1962 I believe. Good to see you back Blue Moon and with a few more details of John Russell....