a6 murder

[reg1965]

Perhaps the cleaner who took it upon himself to look under that back seat had done so before and been lucky enough to find some of Hanratty's booty - or maybe one of his colleagues had.

The cleaner Edwin Cooke, who found the gun, always checked the back seat after once finding a couple of dead rats there.

[Limehouse]

Hello Limehouse,

I see Reg and Vic are at it again. Tell them off will you please.

Yes the back seat of the bus: Hanratty agreed that he had spoken to France about this as a hiding place. However, if you were Hanratty and you knew that the gun had been found on the bus when you were still free to come and go as you please. When you were finally arrested why wouldn’t you say, even if you were guilty or innocent, “I have had no such conversation with Mr France.” And when the handkie that the gun was wrapped in was produced in court and Hanratty when asked if it was his, innocent or guilty, why did he not say: “Not mine. Looks like any other handkie to me”
It seems to me that Hanratty was trying to be absolutely truthful on both points no matter that his admissions made things worse for himself. And make no mistake he would have realised this.

As far as I know no bus conductor ever said they found anything of a dubious/stolen nature under the back seat of the bus. Maybe they did find some stuff and simply took it home. If it was a habitual thing for Hanratty to do it wouldn’t be surprising if on occasions he got on a bus and thought: “I’ll have a look under the back seat. Hmm that’s funny all that stuff I left has gone”

He would then have known it was not a good hiding place and at the end of the day he never said it was a hiding place he said it was a disposal place. That is to get shut of stuff you don’t want again.
The gun could hardly come into that class. No murderer would walk on to the bus and leave the murder weapon under the seat. It would have been at the bottom of the Thames and the next time he wanted to do a stick-up he would have got a new gun.

The gun must have been planted.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

Yes, the gun must have been planted. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. If placed there by Hanratty, he was either a toal idiot (I don't think he was that) or he was very sure the gun would not be found. As you say, most men would have thrown it in the Thames or somewhere similar.

However, as we have been presented with the 'evidence' that Hanratty placed the gun there, why is there no record of conductors being questioned so that they could come forward and say "yes, a man fitting that description was travelling on my bus and I took his fare". He was supposed to look so distinctive - so why wasn't he seen??

[reg1965]

It all depends upon the angle of the barrel, if MG was bent over (to get the bag from the footwell) then the gun could be pointing close to straight down. We know it went through his left-forehead and out the right cheek but that doesn't tell us the angle of his head when the shot was fired.

But that doesn't square with what VS said about MG flopping over the steering wheel. In your scenario he would have flopped into VS's lap.
The killer must have been right handed sitting midback and shot MG as he was passing the bag over his own left shoulder.
Are we talking about slugs or empty cases found in the footwell? The gun would have had to have been broken to release the empty cases and then reloaded.
The action of the gun is interesting inasmuch as it would have taken a good pull to fire the second shot.
This is also interesting in the case of the shots fired at VS. A lumpy gun like this .38 thing would have been very inaccurate at anything else than a fairly short range yet 5 shots in a row entered VS. The gun was reloaded and 3 missed. I would have thought that the first shot on the reload would have been as accurate as any of them. It all depends upon the rate of fire I suppose.
All of this is pretty much unimportant seeing as MG died and VS was left for dead. Yet the ballistics evidence given at trial was somehow flawed. Keith Simpson said the gun was a .32. The gun on the bus was a .38. A .32 fired 7 rounds whereas the .38 carried 6.

What happened to all of the empty cartridge cases. This was as you will recall after JH stayed in room 24 at the Vienna.

Reg

[Tony]

The cleaner Edwin Cooke, who found the gun, always checked the back seat after once finding a couple of dead rats there.

Hello Reg,


Rats under the back seat of the bus? Possible I suppose but not very likely. Mr Cooke was possibly looking for loose change that had fallen out of a passengers pocket’s and slipped down behind the seat.

When he found the gun he couldn’t ignore it and the rat story was then his only reason for lifting the seat up.
If he said, in 1961, I sometime make an extra couple of bob a week in loose change from our passenger’s misfortunes he may have been taking a quick trip to the labour exchange.

Tony.

[Rob63]

Hi all,

Tony
I`ve dug out Mr Simpsons book 'Forty years of murder' and I`ll quote from that if I may:

"He had two .32 calibre bullet wounds of the head, shot 'through and through' from left ear to right cheek. The skin was tattooed round the entry wounds, and the range could not have been more than an inch or two. The shots had evidently been fired in rapid succession, before the head had moved."

The very short range sounds a bit odd, especially when the gunman said he fired after being frightened. It sounds like he had the gun tracking Mr Gregstons head as he was moving. I`ve just enlisted the help of my Mrs, a couple of chairs, a ruler and a toy luger, and tried to suss out the shooters position (how odd is that....it helped `cos the Mrs is a big CSI fan)). As far as we can tell the shooter would have to be in the middle of the rear seat or the angles and the amount of arm stretching is all wrong. Right or left handed doesn`t seem to make a difference as the seat backs would get in the way if the shooter was sitting to either side. Mr Gregston would have to have his head turned towards the passenger side almost at about 75 degrees and facing slightly downwards about 5-10 degrees ie: looking towards the passenger footwell.

As to the wounds to Mr Gregston, (and I`ll stress this is only my own view ) the entry wound would be virtually the same calibre as the bullet. The exit wound at the cheek area I would think would be a tear type maybe an inch in diameter but as the cheek is a fleshy area it would depend on any debris which was forced out during the travel of the bullet. The trajectory would probably pass through the rear of the nasal passage, the roof of the mouth and out through the cheek. Depending on whereabouts the entry wound was around the ear would depend on whether the brain and spinal cord were also damaged, if it was slightly higher than the ear then it may have skimmed the base of the brain. I can understand how Miss Storie and the shooter argued if Mr Gregston was dead or not, I can presume this was because his head hadn`t 'exploded' because of the trajectory of the bullet. I`d think that if he didn`t die immediately he would`ve soon after through sheer shock to the system. He would definately be rendered unconscious immediately by the shock to the skull. Depending on the size of the two blood clots on the floor of the car it may be possible to estimate when the heart stopped pumping.

Limehouse
The Police never interviewed the conductress on the route when the gun would`ve been dropped off. I believe she was called Pat but Mr Foot tried to trace her a few years after and the bus company had a policy of destroying all personnel records after a couple of years I think. I seem to recall that during the trial a lady in the public gallery wearing a straw hat shouted out "he didn`t do it, why don`t you interview the conductress" unfortunately nobody thought of interviewing her either.

[Rob63]

Tony,
interesting observation about the loose change. A few years ago I worked in a garage and we did a lot of work on black cabs. We always lifted the rear seats in case there was any loose change there...there always was.

[Rob63]

Reg,
I believe there were two slugs found in the front footwell and two empty cases found in the rear of the car. This was from two different sources I think but can`t remember where I read it. I`ve found while reading up on the case that because so much has been written about it either in books or newspapers and nowadays on the internet that its quite hard to get an altogether accurate idea of what exactly went on. Some facts have been changed, some pinched from other sources and in the process the exact facts have gone slightly askew at times. It is entirely possible that the two slugs and casings were one and the same, the words cartridge cases and bullets can mean different things to different people, a bullet to some can mean a slug or a loaded round, and the same could be said of cartridges.
In the dark I would think an Enfield would only be accurate up to about 6 foot, especially since a lot of the shots to Miss Storie were in a line. Its rather odd that the shooter fired two into MG and five into VS, before reloading....seven shots ? This could only happen if A/ the shooter replaced the two cartridges which might account for the two found in the rear of the car or B/ The gun was a seven shot .32...which would open up a whole new can of worms.

[reg1965]

Hello Reg,


Rats under the back seat of the bus? Possible I suppose but not very likely. Mr Cooke was possibly looking for loose change that had fallen out of a passengers pocket’s and slipped down behind the seat.

When he found the gun he couldn’t ignore it and the rat story was then his only reason for lifting the seat up.
If he said, in 1961, I sometime make an extra couple of bob a week in loose change from our passenger’s misfortunes he may have been taking a quick trip to the labour exchange.

Tony.

Touche turtle.

[reg1965]

Reg,
I believe there were two slugs found in the front footwell and two empty cases found in the rear of the car. This was from two different sources I think but can`t remember where I read it.

Hi Rob
Cases from a .38 can only be obtained after breaking it open to reload. Is this correct?
Suppose that the two cases found in the car came from the shots fired at MG.
Does anybody know how many cases were found outside the car that came from the shots fired at VS? 8 shots how many cases?
Did the killer take command of totally full boxes of ammo?
Was it 5 loose bullets and a totally loaded gun that was found? Plus 5 boxes of 12 shells each?
Did the cases found @ the Vienna come before or after the killing?
Are we missing anything here?

Where was Hanratty when Audrey Willis was attacked for the 2nd time, on the 2/4/62? And where did that gun come from? Hanratty was in prison awaiting execution.

Reg

[Rob63]

Reg,
You`re correct, to take out the cartridges you tip the barrel/drum forward, a little metal spider in the centre of the drum lifts the cartridges out of their holes for about 3/4 of their length.
I would think that the two cartridges found in the rear of the car were the result of the shots to MG.
I think Graham mentioned 6 cartridge cases were found outside the car.
The Vienna cartriidge cases were found on September the 11 th I think.
The gun when found was loaded I believe, not sure how many loose and boxed ammo were with it though.
I think we may be missing something but I can`t put my finger on it. It certainly disturbs me that someone who is supposed to have had no experience of handling firearms manages an almost perfect double tap on MG and then gets 5 shots in a line on VS even if it was close range.

When I started shooting handguns at a club many years ago, the double handed grip was the norm, I did try to shoot single handed once with a .38 s+w about 6 weeks after i joined, and loosed off 6 shots rapid at a 4'x2' paper target from 5m away, I managed to get 2 on the target and they were high and spread about a foot apart.
I suspect the shooter had more experience of handling a gun than JH did.

[Rob63]

Just found these little snippets whilst reading up on the enfield...

When used in the manner in which British forces trained (rapid double-action fire at very close ranges), the No 2 Mk I* is at least as accurate as any other service pistol of its time, because of the relatively light double action trigger pull. It is not, however, the best choice for deliberately-aimed, long-distance shooting — the double action pull will throw the most competent shooter's aim off enough to noticeably affect accuracy at ranges of more than 15 yards (14 m) or so.

Note the 2 letters printed at the bottom of this box of .38....spooky

[Graham]

Questions:

1] the police must have gone over the car with a fine-tooth comb. Was a full forensics report + photos of the interior of car ever published? If so, where?

2] was the jury at the trial shown photos of the interior of the car?

3] was the interior of the car damaged by the two rounds fired at Gregsten? Where is it recorded that 'two spent bullets' [as opposed to cartridge cases] were found in the footwell of the car?

4] do we know how the car was eventually disposed of by the police? (I recall seeing ages ago an ad for a Morris Minor that was supposed to be the Morris minor, but can't remember where I saw it. I think Larue on the old threads also saw this).

5] is it possible that the cartridges were some kind of 'practice round' with a reduced propellant charge that proved fatal at point-blank range but not when fired from a range of a few yards? (Simon Gregsten said that his father's face was effectively blown off, but bullets recovered from Miss Storie had only penetrated minimally, or so I understand).

6] did the police publish any kind of detailed report regarding the gun, its action, and its ammunition?

7] even if the gun had been 'wiped clean of fingerprints', would there have been traces of fibres from, for example, the lining of a pocket that had been caught on it?

8] how could Simpson state that the wounds were from a .32 round when the gun found on the bus and which was identified as the murder-weapon was a .38? Was this simple human error?

Any answers, guys?

Cheers,

Graham

[Rob63]

Hi Graham,
1/ They probably did but I haven`t found any published. Maybe they`re under lock and key.
2/ Good question, anyone know the answer?
3/Not sure if the interior was damaged, I`ll try and find out where I read about the two slugs.
4/I looked into this but to no joy. The reg no. doesn`t even come up in the dvla register. There was a Morris 100 pic posted on here which was for sale but it was one which was used in one of the reenactment of the A6 programmes. It had a one piece windscreen not the split screen as MGs' had.
5/Only if they were custom made. There might`ve been a practise round available but this would`ve been fitted with a wooden bullet. MGs' face would`ve looked horrendous especially to a family member, lots of blood and smashed cheek/mouth/nasal area. I think it was Mr Foots book where I read about the doctors removing some of the bullets which were just under the skin on VS
6/They would`ve carried out a ballistics test and made a full report one would hope. This is probably under lock and key as well. Not sure if any ballistics chaps were called during the trial to confirm the murder weapon though.
7/Good point, I did wonder how you would carry a largish revolver around whilst wearing a suit, if it was put in the trouser waistband there might`ve been traces of gun oil left behind on the material and maybe the gun would`ve picked up a thread or two.
8/At this moment I`m leaning towards human error. I`m presuming he would`ve measured the entry wound to gauge the calibre. The odd thing is that his book was published in 1978 so you would think that he would`ve changed it or added a correction stating what the real calibre was. This bothers me somewhat.
As a note when Mr Acott told JH that cartridge cases were found in his old old room at the Vienna, JH asked "what size were they" which I thought was a very odd question in the circumstances.

[Tony]

I saw someone posted that when he drove his fathers car (automatic) he found it difficult and was sure that this was why Hanratty had trouble with the car.
Hanratty was a known car thief and was very good at it. He had to be able to start any car and drive it away without drawing attention to himself and by all accounts Hanratty was a smooth operator.
Also the reason Hanratty never said about the Ryll alibi was becase he met with a fellow villian and had little hope of that person supporting his alibi, Hanratty, like most people thought the truth would come out, he was never known for violence.
Then we have the infamous Dixie French - he was the one who put Hanratty into the frame. He committed suiside when Hanratty was convicted.
His reason - old as time - a father shamed.
Hanratty had eyed Dixie's daughter and even though Hanratty was warned off he still went after the 16 year old and had sex with her under some railway arches - a fact she affirmed many years later.
I think that Dixie France put Hanratty in the frame to cause him grief assuming that Hanratty would be able to abili himself but it all went terribly wrong.
I have never believed Hanratty guilty. Peter Alphons is my choice. The widow of Peter Gregson and her brother knew so much more about this crime.
I also think the theory that Mrs Gregson's brother hired someone to put the frighteners on Gregson and Storie but they hired an idiot and Alphons panicked and shot Gregson and everyone backed away fast.
I have no trust in the DNA evidence as I think that it was kept with other stuff and contaminated.
When all was lost and there was no further hope, James Hanratty still swore his innocense and asked his brother to clear his name.
Villian he may have been but when facing his maker he still wouldn't confess to a crime he didn't commit.

Hello everyone,

Just thought I might draw your attention to this quoted posting from Katew; her/his one and only.

A very interesting post but sadly never followed up.

I suppose we do get the occasional one off contributor but they only come on every BLUEMOON.


Tony.

[Victor]

I hate to tell you this Vic but neither the tooth fairy or father christmas are real and Pulp Fiction is a film.

OK Reg, where do you want to go with this?

I'm happy to confirm for you that you are correct and the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas are not real. You can now go and tell everyone that you've been proved right for once. Well done.

And yes, Pulp Fiction is film, but one set in the real world - there's no dragons or fairies or other impossible things. It contains a sequence where someone is shot in a car and a clean up ensues within a few hours, and may shed some light on the practicalities of cleaning up the car in this case.

Gattaca on the other hand is a film which has no significance to this case whatsoever because it is not set in the real world, they use advanced genetic analysis to tell how long people are going to live - this science doesn't exist in this world.

Now are you going to enlighten us as to your point?

It all depends upon the angle of the barrel, if MG was bent over (to get the bag from the footwell) then the gun could be pointing close to straight down. We know it went through his left-forehead and out the right cheek but that doesn't tell us the angle of his head when the shot was fired.

But that doesn't square with what VS said about MG flopping over the steering wheel. In your scenario he would have flopped into VS's lap.
The killer must have been right handed sitting midback and shot MG as he was passing the bag over his own left shoulder.

I didn't propose a scenario, your analysis of my comment is fatally flawed. The point I was making following on from Tony's comments was that it's virtually impossible to make any conclusions about where the bullets ended up or where Hanratty was sitting without further evidence from the car. The bullets could have gone out the window or straight down into the footwell.

KR,
Vic.