a6 murder

[reg1965]

..so where do you think it came from? Do you go along with the theory of hit man (though why choose him?) or some kind of blackmail (perhaps after the failure of a plan to merely warn VS & MG off / drive them together?

my view is that if Alphon was the killer the money came from blackmail payments. No payments were made before hand as would possibly have been arranged as in a pro hit.

PS I still can't decide either way. If it was Hanratty I can go along with the thought that he met up with the, by pure chance. But if so why did Alphon suddenly get to be the banker's friend?

If it was Hanratty and the recent DNA findings are correct then he must be the most unluckiest hitman in the world, bar Oswald. No evidence existed against him, and still he was hanged To all intents and purposes he was in Liverpool/Rhyl between approx 2pm on the 22/8 and 8:45pm on the 24/8/61.
No one sees him at all between these dates within 200 miles of London. I am sure that if Hanratty was in London between those times someone would have come forward!
As it happens in fact the opposite happened, although not quite in time to save Hanratty from the drop. People from Rhyl come forward saying that they remember seeing a young London man of Hanratty's description in the town at the approximate time. These peoples conviction that it was Hanratty has only strengthened over the years.

If not Hanratty, it seems to have been by design and Alphon who was apparently seen in the area before and on the night guessed they'd be there. BUT, V&M had moved from an earlier 'liaison' point so may not have been at the cornfield at all - unless he saw them there anyway and followed.

Alphon had been seen in the area at least 3 times by Michael Fogarty-Waul, he lived in a near by caravan. More than likely one of them was on the night of the murder. During the trial Fogarty-Waul told police that he had seen the man again and was sent packing after a policeman had wiped the mans fingerprints off of Fogarty-Wauls bonnet! What is going on here?

I wonder what all forum readers would want for Christmas to settle their minds on this case? Let's say at the moment it is evenly balanced but there would be one or 2 things that would make you switch camps - what would that (have to) be?

A real empirical piece of evidence to say that Hanratty was in that car at that time!

Reg

[reg1965]

I just wandered by the boards whilst digesting the cold flesh of a dead bird and I have to say that I agree with you one hundred percent, Reg. And this is a first! I've always counselled care when speaking of still-living persons connected with this case, as you know. Your advice is sound.

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham
Did you cook it first....nasty!
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi Graham
I certainly take issue with posting sensational information that deals with people like you know them intimately. It is nothing short of treachery. I just think that Blue Moon should dissist with the Carol France stuff unless they want it all over some newspaper or worse!
Reg

[Graham]

Regarding Alphon's finances, take a look at Paul Foot, hardback pages 391-392. Certainly, Alphon paid a lot of money (mostly in cash, it would seem) into his account between October 1961 and June 1962. Foot says it was £7569. Much of this was paid in small deposits of between £150 and £400. Foot says that some of this money came from newspapers, maybe about £2500. That leaves about £5000 to account for. Foot says that some of this may well be due to large gambling wins - after all, Alphon was to an extent a professional, and sometimes rather successful, gambler. It is also possible, indeed likely, that he received some out-of-court damages from the police for wrongful arrest. He also spent a huge amount of money, too, in high living and legal fees to his solicitors, Galbraith and Best. He also apparently bought a greyhound, which would have cost a bob or two. Did his greyhound win any races? Don't know. Did he receive money from Justice? Can't tell, but not unlikely in my opinion. Did he receive money from blackmailing someone? Can't tell, but if so, who? Ewer?

Don't forget that Ewer himself sued a newspaper for making false claims against him, and I think also Ewer too received a settlement from the police.

Alphon's current account was closed on June 22 1962, after which it would seem that his flurry of big 'earners' and equally big pay-outs ceased.

Someone, and I can't recall if it was Foot or Miller, said that Alphon made his bank-accounts public only after he was certain there was no chance of anyone seeing where his payments by cheque came from. This would certainly suggest that he was very wary of allowing anyone to know the source of his income, but in itself does not suggest that the source was anything but legal.

I incline to the belief that Alphon, who was a chancer all his life, made the very most of his accidental involvement in the A6 Case - easy come, easy go.

Cheers,

Graham

[Graham]

Hi Graham
I certainly take issue with posting sensational information that deals with people like you know them intimately. It is nothing short of treachery. I just think that Blue Moon should dissist with the Carol France stuff unless they want it all over some newspaper or worse!
Reg

Very plainly Carol France wished for closure as far as she was concerned, and hasn't said a word about the A6 Case for 47 years. Her desire for closure should be respected - even after all this time it's not unlikely that some tabloid editor would pick up on it again.

Graham

PS: the bird was indeed cooked, but I can't say I'm a huge fan of turkey...a bacon sandwich would have been just the job.....

[jimornot?]

[QUOTE=reg1965;59381]Alphon had been seen in the area at least 3 times by Michael Fogarty-Waul, he lived in a near by caravan. More than likely one of them was on the night of the murder. During the trial Fogarty-Waul told police that he had seen the man again and was sent packing after a policeman had wiped the mans fingerprints off of Fogarty-Wauls bonnet! What is going on here?


Hi Reg

I didn't know / remember about the fingerprints. I agree about the pure luck of the police getting the right man (if Hanratty was indeed the right man).

I also agree with you and Graham regarding Blue Moon's postings, highly interesting though they are.

Viv

[Graham]

[quote=reg1965;59381][QUOTE]Alphon had been seen in the area at least 3 times by Michael Fogarty-Waul, he lived in a near by caravan. More than likely one of them was on the night of the murder. During the trial Fogarty-Waul told police that he had seen the man again and was sent packing after a policeman had wiped the mans fingerprints off of Fogarty-Wauls bonnet! What is going on here? [QUOTE]

Hi Jimornot,

Let's get this straight - no-one, Fogarty-Waul included, stated that they had seen Peter Louis Alphon in and around Dorney Reach. Fogarty-Waul said that he'd seen a man at Slough dog-track who asked him for a lift, and he dropped this man off at some hotel in Slough. He then said that about 3 weeks later he saw the same man on a corner near Marsh Lane and this time he gave him a lift as far as Pecks Farm. The man said he was trying to get to Maidenhead, and F-W told him he was on the wrong road, at which the man said he could find his way 'across the fields', and got out of F-W's car somewhere in Marsh Lane. He saw the man again, after the A6 trial, and claimed it was the same man he'd seen on the previous two occasions. As a result he went to the police, and then claimed that when the police arrived to interview him one of them wiped 'fingerprints' off his car. He also told Justice and Fox that the man 'resembled the actor Sidney Tafler' - which, in fairness, Alphon did.

F-W joined the A6 Committee and there followed, courtesy of Justice and Fox, the weird 'confrontation' in Brighton when he claimed he saw the same man in the window of a house in Marine Parade, in which Alphon's parents were living at the time. This man, it is alleged, was Peter Alphon. Even Foot said that F-W's account was, quote, 'a little exaggerated'. Alphon said he had never set eyes on F-W prior to that day in Brighton. I believe I am correct in saying that Sherrard felt that F-W was someone who, for whatever reason, wanted to be 'in' on the A6 Case, and was, therefore, an unreliable witness. Sherrard felt the same about the man in the left-luggage office at Lime Street Station, Liverpool. And, I seriously believe, about most of the Rhyl 'witnesses'.

Nevertheless, all of the above adds to the overall mystery surrounding the A6 Case....

Cheers,

Graham

[jimornot?]

.............. He also apparently bought a greyhound, which would have cost a bob or two. Did his greyhound win any races? Don't know. Did he receive money from Justice? Can't tell, but not unlikely in my opinion. Did he receive money from blackmailing someone? Can't tell, but if so, who? Ewer?

Don't forget that Ewer himself sued a newspaper for making false claims against him, and I think also Ewer too received a settlement from the police.

Alphon's current account was closed on June 22 1962, after which it would seem that his flurry of big 'earners' and equally big pay-outs ceased.

Someone, and I can't recall if it was Foot or Miller, said that Alphon made his bank-accounts public only after he was certain there was no chance of anyone seeing where his payments by cheque came from. This would certainly suggest that he was very wary of allowing anyone to know the source of his income, but in itself does not suggest that the source was anything but legal.

I incline to the belief that Alphon, who was a chancer all his life, made the very most of his accidental involvement in the A6 Case - easy come, easy go.

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham

You may well be right. Just like so much of this case, it could simply be another coincidence about the money. Wonder if he had any other big wins after June 1962 or any other bank accounts.

I know Ewer sued Paul Foot too but apparently settled out of court(?) and Foot didn't change anything in his book after the settlement. Curious in iteself?

Alphon seems to be very shrewd. It would be plausible that he 'dchoose to keep the mystery alive (and maintain some kind of profile) by keeping one step ahead of the investigators. But it seems very ironic that he indirectly led the police to Ryan, had an influx of funds (majority of which the source is unclear) when he had been reduced to taking money from his mother.

Can't help thinking it's a pity the web and so this thread was not around ages ago. So many possibilities......

Best wishes

Viv



PS Anyone know the greyhound's name?

[Graham]

Hi Graham

You may well be right. Just like so much of this case, it could simply be another coincidence about the money. Wonder if he had any other big wins after June 1962 or any other bank accounts.

I know Ewer sued Paul Foot too but apparently settled out of court(?) and Foot didn't change anything in his book after the settlement. Curious in iteself?

Alphon seems to be very shrewd. It would be plausible that he 'dchoose to keep the mystery alive (and maintain some kind of profile) by keeping one step ahead of the investigators. But it seems very ironic that he indirectly led the police to Ryan, had an influx of funds (majority of which the source is unclear) when he had been reduced to taking money from his mother.

Can't help thinking it's a pity the web and so this thread was not around ages ago. So many possibilities......

Best wishes

Viv



PS Anyone know the greyhound's name?

Hi Viv,

I don't think it was a total coincidence about the money - I do believe that some, at least, of Alphon's large but short-lived income was as a result of his association with the A6 Case. Alphon was, as you say, shrewd, but like many so-called professional gamblers not shrewd enough. Not that it really matters, but I once worked with a bloke who in some ways reminded me of Alphon. This bloke was up to his ears in debt, but whenever he had money - always cash - he'd gamble it. When he had a win - and I recall he had two or three very big wins, his largesse knew no bounds. He'd blow it straight away on good living, holidays, cars, etc., and (in my case) taking his mates out for slap-up 5-star dinners. He had no real financial responsibility, and whatever he made, he would spend plus some. He always lost, he never won.

No-one knows for sure how the Ryan-Hanratty link was made, but the best possibility is that France had a hand in it - I don't think Alphon did.

Re: the greyhound, this would make a really nice bit of investigation for someone with more skill than I possess in that area. All doggies have to be registered, and their owner's/owners' name/s also registered, so maybe somewhere in the records we could find out the name of Alphon's growler.

Finally, I do agree with you that it was in Alphon's interests to keep his involvement in the A6 Case alive, so long as he saw a potential profit in it and wasn't threatened by it.

Interestingly, at the time of the DNA analyses, a sample of Alphon's DNA was taken for purposes of comparison, so quite obviously the police knew how to contact him....

Cheers,

Graham

PS: my current 'run' of posts coincides with E-bay being quiet during the Christmas period, so at least I can get on the computer without my other half shooing me away - also for reasons of profit!

[Tony]

Hi Graham

You may well be right. Just like so much of this case, it could simply be another coincidence about the money. Wonder if he had any other big wins after June 1962 or any other bank accounts.

I know Ewer sued Paul Foot too but apparently settled out of court(?) and Foot didn't change anything in his book after the settlement. Curious in iteself?

Alphon seems to be very shrewd. It would be plausible that he 'dchoose to keep the mystery alive (and maintain some kind of profile) by keeping one step ahead of the investigators. But it seems very ironic that he indirectly led the police to Ryan, had an influx of funds (majority of which the source is unclear) when he had been reduced to taking money from his mother.

Can't help thinking it's a pity the web and so this thread was not around ages ago. So many possibilities......

Best wishes

Viv



PS Anyone know the greyhound's name?

Hello Viv,

I think if Alphon had had another big win on the dogs we would have heard about it. The money he is supposed to have won on the dogs would have sent a bookie under. They were colossal amounts and bookies would have been very wary of having any dealings with him.

If he had so much money at his disposal and was going about accusing Bill Ewer of all sorts then explain to me why Mr Ewer, never shy at issuing writs against anyone who might even remotely suggest he had anything to do with the A6 murder, did not issue a writ against Mr Alphon.

Tony.

[Graham]

Hello Viv,

I think if Alphon had had another big win on the dogs we would have heard about it. The money he is supposed to have won on the dogs would have sent a bookie under. They were colossal amounts and bookies would have been very wary of having any dealings with him.

If he had so much money at his disposal and was going about accusing Bill Ewer of all sorts then explain to me why Mr Ewer, never shy at issuing writs against anyone who might even remotely suggest he had anything to do with the A6 murder, did not issue a writ against Mr Alphon.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

Why should we have heard about any win of Alphon's at the pups? That was what he did - he bet on the dogs and sometimes he won, sometimes he didn't. Assuming that he did win on occasion, then the amount he won would depend upon what he bet plus, of course, the odds, and I think we're all agreed that Alphon was no rookie when it came to dog-racing. If a bookie didn't fancy accepting a bet from Alphon, then he could just say 'no'. I'm pretty sure that even in the early 1960's punters did, on occasion, win four-figure sums on the growlers. My old great-uncle once won five figures on the horses in the 1950's (which he never tired of telling us about).

Did Alphon ever accuse Bill Ewer of anything? Ewer said that in his opinion Alphon was a raving lunatic who made his life hell with (Alphon's usual trick) of repeated telephone calls. Alphon made some references in recorded tapes (via Justice) of Ewer's possible involvement, but no more. Obviously not sufficiently serious for Ewer to issue a writ which, as you correctly say, he was never shy to do.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sara]

I'm very involved in horse-racing, and a few people I know are also involved in dog-racing. There are some fundamental misconceptions here aobut how these things work, and imo about the gambling mentality itself.

If Alphon were a good enough gambler to win the kinds of sums we are envisaging, he would have been doing it steadily for some years, and would have continued to do it - he would probably have built up quite a nest egg. He would certainly not have just 'given up'. If he were winning the kinds of sums involved (£5000 at 1961 rates would as has been pointed out be £100s of £1000s of quid nowadays), he would indeed have found it very hard to get a bet on - it woud not have been a one-off, and bookies will knock you back for very small relative sums if you are in the winning habit. Some friends of mine are limited to £25 e/w for a single bet!! - they certainly can't get more than £100 on. If you keep winning, bookies refuse your bets (or close your account).

The only two ways round this are:

- either you have a 'tame' bookie who uses you as a marker - ie in return for accomodating you, you give him prior notice what you are backing so he can balance his book against your info, which he knows is good. This is a mutually benefial arrangement which balances your wins against the opportunities for wider damage limitation you can offer, eg by letting him know which horses are 'off' for a particular race.

- or you have a 'dealer' or funder - you deal sums with him and the sums run sometimes for months. This is entirely outside the normal bookmaking system. Very big sums are involved; and believe me, you don't want to mess with the guys who accomodate this kind of gambling**. Which is all really big gambling, ie say £2000 and upwards at today's prices - it's almost impossible to bet this kind of sum with a bookie now. If you get on the wrong side of these guys, they call the shots.

You can also bet illegally, ie use say a pub, where people make private bets - not so easy as it used to be.

I'm sure dog racing is even more ruthless in every respect, as it's always lacked the gentlemanly aspect which the horses have always encompassed - the 'sport of kings' etc etc

I wonder if Alphon might have got on the wrong side of such a character or characters** and paid the price (eg in 'services rendered').

Which might well lead to him having given up gambling altogether, once things had run their course. But in my experience, gamblers on that scale are addicts, and never give up. That gambling buzz is their lifeblood. Fear of one's life is another matter...

[Limehouse]

My daughter worked with greyhounds at weekends and in the evenings from the age of 14 until she went to university. She was licensed to care for the dogs and walk them, feed them etc. Dog racing is, as Sara said, very different from horse racing. The amounts won on bets are very small and always have been. However, the dog racing industry is, and has been, rife with corruption and certain people do make money from it. Remember though, at this point in the 1960s the only legal bets took place at the tracks. There were no bookies' shops as there are now. This means a punter either had to visit the race course to place bets, or place them illegally off course. I think it is highly unlikely that Alphon won amounts of this type from legal dog racing bets. Horse racing bets possibly, but not dogs.

[blue moon]

Does Carol France know that you are telling us all this? If not I would recommend quitting now. I would love to know what Carol has to say about Hanratty and her father and a possible frame up but this approach has a distasteful ring about it as far as I a concerned.

Be careful
Reg

I am entiltled to have an opinion and no, carol does not know that have wrote things on this website but to be perfectly honest i couldnt care less if she did know. I have writen these things because i believe them to be of somewhat true to a certain extent, i mean nobody really knows the truth do they because those most closely involved are not here anymore are they Reg!
I know however that Gregsons in laws were responsible for his death, i know this because his brother in law who owned an antique shop in swiss cottage wanted Storie scared off and Gregson beaten, the brother paid Dixie France and John Russell to do the job they then paid Alphon to carry it out. It went not according to plan they needed a scape goat and Dixie knew the perfect man guess who? You got it right James Hanratty, he was very close to carol at this time and Daddy didnt like it he thought to himself i can kill two birds with one stone, but he couldnt deal with the guilt of dragging his sweet little family and the apple of his eye and of course the hanging of an innocent man so he put his head in the oven, literally now if thats not the act of guilt then i dont know what is. If carol was to read this she would know who i am.

[Tony]

Christmas Morning.

Last week, on Christmas morning actually, I got up early as usual to make a start on the Christmas festivities.

I started to prepare the ‘dinner’. Well we are up North and we eat our dinner just after noon I suppose the more refined call it lunch.
Anyway I digress.

I had brought the bird out of the garage and introduced it to the good old favourite, sage and onion.

Just as I had finished my wife came into the kitchen and asked how I was getting on:

“Oh I’ve just stuffed the turkey, Oxo.” I said.

Now I don’t know why I called her Oxo I’ve never done so in the past. She gave me a rather curious look and started messing with the presents for the kids.

Do you think I am taking this discussion forum too seriously?

Tony.