a6 murder

[Tony]

Like greased lightnin', me, mate!

You did well to get a copy of Foot's book so easily, unless it's been recently reprinted. I got mine a few years ago by e-mailing about 6 specialist crime book-shops, and it took me a couple of months before I scored.

What I don't have - and I take this opportunity to ask if anyone's got one for sale - is a copy of Jean Justice's book 'Murder vs Murder. I read it years and years ago - I borrowed a copy - but would love to read it again.

Cheers,

Graham

Good afternoon Graham,

Just for your information and so that you may increase or upgrade your book collection on this case.

This morning Amazon had 36 copies of Paul Foot’s book on sale.

They range from the original hardback edition @ £1.36
First paperback edition @ 0.02
1988 new paperback edition @ 0.04

All worth getting. I’ve bought quite a few over the years and give them to puzzled looking friends.

Tony.

[Graham]

Thanks for this, Tony. I have an original edition of Who Killed Hanratty? but I'd assume that it's been updated since then.

If you ever see a Jean Justice book for sale, let me know! I just checked Amazon and they've got one for sale at £65.00!

Cheers,

Graham

[Tony]

Thanks for this, Tony. I have an original edition of Who Killed Hanratty? but I'd assume that it's been updated since then.

If you ever see a Jean Justice book for sale, let me know! I just checked Amazon and they've got one for sale at £65.00!

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham,

Now that is expensive. Although with that type of book and on this sort of subject it is a seller’s market. They will find somebody, probably somebody who contributes here, to buy it.
My copy was published at a cost of 9 Francs, that's about a quid, and I paid £35 for it earlier this year.
But it is a must for your A6 library. As is Paul Foot's 1988 paperback.

Tony

[reg1965]

Thanks for this, Tony. I have an original edition of Who Killed Hanratty? but I'd assume that it's been updated since then.

If you ever see a Jean Justice book for sale, let me know! I just checked Amazon and they've got one for sale at £65.00!

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham
Try here for £24.04

http://www.antiqbook.co.uk/boox/rwilli/OlympiaF_093.shtml

or £25.00 here

http://www.antiqbook.co.uk/boox/goddin/014791.shtml

and £25.00 here

http://www.antiqbook.co.uk/boox/del/031552.shtml

I don't think you will get it any cheaper.

Reg

[Limehouse]

I've said it before on this thread and I'll say it again: Paul Foot was a hero at a time when we needed a few (as we do so again, today). He never ceased to snipe away at what he saw as corruption, bad government, the evil aspects of big business, miscarriages of justice and so on. Usually he got it right; occasionally he got it wrong. I always appreciated his general lack of tabloid-type emotion in dealing with his various causes celebre. He just got on with it. I'm old enough to remember when he first got his teeth into the A6 Case in Private Eye, and he never let go, even though right at the end of his life he seemed to have just a slight doubt (this following the DNA evidence). Richard Ingrams, the former editor of the Eye, once said that "If Footie says something, then I believe it" or words to that effect.

Graham

Here, here. God rest his soul.

[Tony]

Hi,
First post on the forum, I`ve spent the last four days trawling through this A6 thread and interesting reading it makes. I remember going to Madame Tussauds as a child many years ago and seeing the JH exhibit in the horror section, it struck me as out of place as the rest were quite gory. As I didn`t know anything about the case the chap looked very much like countless other males of the time who frequented the local pub. At that time most males wore a suit of some description when out on the town and they all tended to look like the typical 'jack the lad'. I did overhear my parents mentioning that there was some doubt as to his guilt but thats as far as my knowledge went.
Over the years I`ve caught a few news articles on the crime but didn`t take much notice, after hearing one on the dna evidence in 2002 I found myself asking if dna isn`t the be all and end all that it is purported to be. Bearing in mind I knew very little about the crime or DNA I put this down to some sub conscious memory of childhood when I overheard my parents mentioning the doubt raised over the case.
So I`ve come on here as a fence sitter, I tend to rely on facts and am not a great fan of wild speculation although this does sometimes produce some thought provoking moments, I`ll maybe get a book or two to read on the matter but would`ve rather purchased one which is middle of the road, unfortunately after reading this thread there seems to be only books pushing the for or against argument...unless someone can enlighten me ?
I did like another posters suggestion of a dedicated A6 part of this forum where different sections could be easily located regarding witnesses, evidence etc. as anyone new to the subject has a mammoth task of trawling through such a long thread to glean information. One thing I would like to see is another DNA test on the available exhibits from a totally independent laboratory but realise that this would be highly improbable.
I do have some questions which contributors may be able to answer, I`m sorry if the answers have already been given but it isn`t easy backing up through such a long thread to find snippets of info.

1/ Were any spent cases found at the scene of the crime and if so how many ?
2/ There is reference in one post to the shooter first appearing wearing a hanky as a mask, would this be true ? If so when did the shooter remove the mask ?, is there anything in VS statement ?
3/ Before they arrived at the cornfield there is mention that they were parked nearby in another location but were disturbed. Is there any reference to what disturbed them ?
4/ I`ve seen a post on here quoting a Mr Simpson (pathologist ?) where he listed the wounds as coming from a .32 calibre bullet, was this a typo for the article. I`m assuming that as a pathologist he would`ve had to take a stab at what calibre weapon caused the injuries. Therefore was it a .32 or a .38 figure which was on the pathologists report?
5/ I believe there was something in VS statement that she and MG went to the pub on the fateful night with friends. Does anyone have any references to who these friends were ?
6/ Reference the Dixie France letters, I recall someone on here mentioning that Mr Foot had access to them at one point as long as he didn`t discuss publicly what they contained. Being as he believed JHs` innocence right up until the DNA episode and then still had his doubts, should the letters now be discounted in containing anything of value to the case. I only mention this as being a journalist Mr Foot could`ve found some way of releasing information if there were any explosive facts gained from the letters.

Sorry it`s such a long first post but these are jut a few thoughts I`ve had whilst perusing over the last four days
Regards
Rob

Hello Rob65,

A very warm welcome to you, Sir.

One question you ask in your post 2784 is about the quantity of bullets/cartridge cases at the scene. Last week I asked Victor if he could supply me with the same information. I know it’s difficult Vic and I have tried myself to work it out. I may be wrong but here’s what I have come up with.
By the way I am sure your good friend Reg will know more about this than either of us so let’s await his arithmetic with anticipation

Rob this is what we know for certain:

The gun and ammunition were found on the bus under the back seat. Never mind how they got there for now but that is where they were found. The boxes of ammunition were packed with 12 shots. Forget the remaining full boxes they are of no consequence unless Acott and Oxford used them for something. But let’s also forget that for now.

Under the seat was the fully loaded gun containing 6 bullets there were another 5 loose and rolling around.

So that’s 11 in total on the bus

2 cartridges were found at the Vienna Hotel.

The crime scene is a slight problem. We know that 2 bullets went into and out of Gregston’s head. So at that point the gun contained a further 4 bullets all fired quickly at Valerie Storie. That is up to now a total of 6. She said the gunman then reloaded and fired another 3 shots at her. So that is 9 at the crime scene. All were recovered.

So we are working in multiples of 6 or 12 if you like.

11 on the bus
2 in the Vienna
9 at the crime scene

22 grand total. That means 2 unaccounted for.

Valerie Storie told Acott, and I am certainly not getting at her on this account, “ I heard 5 straight off, then I heard a click as if he’d reloaded the gun, then he fired 3 more shots. She could not possibly have heard 5 initial shots before the reloading as the gun chamber only held 6. She must have heard 4.
She was, however, hit by 5 shots but insists a further 3 shots missed her. So by this account as well it seems that the gunman left with 2 bullets in the gun but it was found fully loaded.

What happened to those 2 bullets? Well we probably will never know but on the other hand…….

I would appreciate your views on this matter. As I say one day it may have some significance.

Tony.

Can I just say in closing a very Happy Christmas and prosperous and safe New Year to all contributors to this thread? I have enjoyed your company tremendously over the past year and it’s nice to see Reg and Graham getting on so splendidly.
Look after yourselves everybody.

Tony.

[reg1965]

Hi Rob

Hi,
First post on the forum, I`ve spent the last four days trawling through this A6 thread and interesting reading it makes. I remember going to Madame Tussauds as a child many years ago and seeing the JH exhibit in the horror section, it struck me as out of place as the rest were quite gory. As I didn`t know anything about the case the chap looked very much like countless other males of the time who frequented the local pub. At that time most males wore a suit of some description when out on the town and they all tended to look like the typical 'jack the lad'. I did overhear my parents mentioning that there was some doubt as to his guilt but thats as far as my knowledge went.
Over the years I`ve caught a few news articles on the crime but didn`t take much notice, after hearing one on the dna evidence in 2002 I found myself asking if dna isn`t the be all and end all that it is purported to be. Bearing in mind I knew very little about the crime or DNA I put this down to some sub conscious memory of childhood when I overheard my parents mentioning the doubt raised over the case.
So I`ve come on here as a fence sitter, I tend to rely on facts and am not a great fan of wild speculation although this does sometimes produce some thought provoking moments, I`ll maybe get a book or two to read on the matter but would`ve rather purchased one which is middle of the road, unfortunately after reading this thread there seems to be only books pushing the for or against argument...unless someone can enlighten me ?

If you want the most middle of the road book on the case try Louis Blom-Coopers, Semblence of Truth. He examines the case and feels that although he believes Hanratty was culpable should not have been convicted on the evidence given.

Lord Russell of Liverpool's book was the first published in England expousing Hanratty's innocence although Paul Foot provided an extremely in depth investigation into the case along with new evidence in Who Killed Hanratty, followed by Bob Woffinden, who provided the impetus for the appeal in 2002.

If you want a Hanratty is guilty account, try Leonard Miller.

I have them all and for me Jean Justice's Murder vs Murder is the most immediate as Justice tried to get Alphon to confess before Hanratty was hanged. Justice was among the action at the time and writes quite candidly of the events. Priceless.

I did like another posters suggestion of a dedicated A6 part of this forum where different sections could be easily located regarding witnesses, evidence etc. as anyone new to the subject has a mammoth task of trawling through such a long thread to glean information. One thing I would like to see is another DNA test on the available exhibits from a totally independent laboratory but realise that this would be highly improbable.

It is not decernable whether any more of the knicker fragment exists after the last DNA test. I would like to see ALL of the replicate sample profiles produced and the lab(s) report on how they came to the conclusion that they did.

I do have some questions which contributors may be able to answer, I`m sorry if the answers have already been given but it isn`t easy backing up through such a long thread to find snippets of info.

1/ Were any spent cases found at the scene of the crime and if so how many ?

Not sure on this one at the mo. Needs investigating further.

2/ There is reference in one post to the shooter first appearing wearing a hanky as a mask, would this be true ? If so when did the shooter remove the mask ?, is there anything in VS statement ?

If the gunman was wearing a mask of some sort for, say, the greater duration of the kidnap then his voice would not have sounded the same as if he was not wearing one.

3/ Before they arrived at the cornfield there is mention that they were parked nearby in another location but were disturbed. Is there any reference to what disturbed them ?

A motorcyclist saw the car just after 21:45 parked up with interior lights on in a field that wasn't the cornfield.

4/ I`ve seen a post on here quoting a Mr Simpson (pathologist ?) where he listed the wounds as coming from a .32 calibre bullet, was this a typo for the article. I`m assuming that as a pathologist he would`ve had to take a stab at what calibre weapon caused the injuries. Therefore was it a .32 or a .38 figure which was on the pathologists report?

.32

5/ I believe there was something in VS statement that she and MG went to the pub on the fateful night with friends. Does anyone have any references to who these friends were ?

Mrs Lanz the landlady didn't mention anything about them being accompanied that night. To all intents and purposes they came in on their own.

6/ Reference the Dixie France letters, I recall someone on here mentioning that Mr Foot had access to them at one point as long as he didn`t discuss publicly what they contained. Being as he believed JHs` innocence right up until the DNA episode and then still had his doubts, should the letters now be discounted in containing anything of value to the case. I only mention this as being a journalist Mr Foot could`ve found some way of releasing information if there were any explosive facts gained from the letters.

I don't think that they disclose anything about the A6 murder. Although why they are hold by the National Archive and are closed seems a bit odd, even if they are personal papers. And if they were personal why doesn't the France family have possession of them?

Cheers
Reg

[Tony]

Semblance of Truth.

Hello Reg,

I saw the match yesterday. Red card? Hmmm.

You mention Louis Blom-Cooper’s book Semblance of Truth in reply to Rob. I agree with your summary of the contents and Blom-Coopers views. It is a very interesting book indeed and as you say Mr Blom-Cooper states that he thought Hanratty was guilty but should not have hanged. In fact he is very forceful on that point.

However, in 1971, having read Paul Foot’s book, Mr Blom-Cooper appeared to change his mind and publicly stated that the case should be looked at again.

For somebody to have gone to all the time and trouble to write a book on the case and then to read Paul Foot’s account and finally come to that conclusion says not only a lot for Paul Foot’s book but a lot for Mr Blom-Cooper’s integrity.

Cheer up Pal.

Tony.

[reg1965]

Hello Reg,

I saw the match yesterday. Red card? Hmmm.

You mention Louis Blom-Cooper’s book Semblance of Truth in reply to Rob. I agree with your summary of the contents and Blom-Coopers views. It is a very interesting book indeed and as you say Mr Blom-Cooper states that he thought Hanratty was guilty but should not have hanged. In fact he is very forceful on that point.

However, in 1971, having read Paul Foot’s book, Mr Blom-Cooper appeared to change his mind and publicly stated that the case should be looked at again.

For somebody to have gone to all the time and trouble to write a book on the case and then to read Paul Foot’s account and finally come to that conclusion says not only a lot for Paul Foot’s book but a lot for Mr Blom-Cooper’s integrity.

Cheer up Pal.

Tony.

Hi Tony
Howard Webb really pisses me off. He acts like its the Howard Webb show. Grrrrr. RVP's goal was a real peach...Goal of the season contender!

I got a letter from Sir Louis a few months ago stating that he was still convinced of Hanratty's guilt, and that the DNA would have strengthened the jury's position.

Louis Blom-Cooper also wrote a very positive review of Bob's book when it first came out. I will post the URL when I find it.

Cheers
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi Tony
Here is Sir Louis' review of Bob's book

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_199711/ai_n8767382/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Regards
Reg

[Rob63]

quote from Reg:

.32


Is this the calibre listed in the original pathologists report? If so were the bullets from VS and MG definately identified by ballistics as being shot from the .38 found on the 36A...probably a silly question but is there a copy of the ballistics and/or pathologists report available anywhere ?

[Sara]

You take care
ps like your scepticism over the DNA evidnece pet

A very very merry Xmas to you all, if we don't bump into each other before, and a happy New Year.
Reg

Thanks for the good wishes Reg - youu too! I always enjoy your posts - I'm still reading through the back stuff amd making lots of notes... Unlike most others on here, I came to the case convinced of Hanratty's guilt but wanted to see why the section was so huge! - so I started reading.... and the more I read the more I find the conviction unsafe to say the very least.

I've just spent two days on the DNA evidence and I have to say its plausibility, or rather irrefutibility, does remain crucial to anyones' attudtude... So I'm about to post yet again on that thread with a few thoughts, and might have more to say later.

I don't think most posters are making enough distinction between the types of techniques used in DNA evidence.

[reg1965]

quote from Reg:

.32


Is this the calibre listed in the original pathologists report? If so were the bullets from VS and MG definately identified by ballistics as being shot from the .38 found on the 36A...probably a silly question but is there a copy of the ballistics and/or pathologists report available anywhere ?

Hi Rob
See Woffinden (1997, p396-7) for some information regarding the ballistics.
Regards
Reg.

[jimornot?]

this thread

Dear all

Having spent the best part of 3 days looking at this wonderful thread, I want to comment on the contributions and posters.

All are impressive in the passion, intelligence, reasoning and verbal command shown. It matters not what side of the argument one is if the posts are stimulating. I also like the irreverence of some of the more humorous ones (Tony!)

It is interesting to see how heated some posts become and I suspect in many cases it is a bit of bluster and getting retaliation in first. Lately I have seen some remarks aimed at the contributions of Caz which was surprising as I have found her posts interesting and to me, very well written.

The enthusiasm shown does all of you credit – well done. The research is immense – love the interactions between Reg / Jimarilyn ? JamesDean and Victor / Graham (where’s Johnl gone?) . Sorry not to write about everyone because ALL of you play a huge part in making this thread as captivating as the subject matter

Larue has been quiet for a while and did anyone find out where Steve went? I assume many of you tried personal messages to him?
Thanks all of you.

VS (proper initials!)

PS come back Caz

[reg1965]

Hi VS (no way!)
It could be conferred that from your handle you are not sure about the true identity of the A6 murderer. Am I correct?
Just post what you think and join this great club of A6 obsessives!
As is prevelant in theatrical circles johnl should be mentioned on this thread as the "Scottish Play".
Get scribbling
Regards
Reg