a6 murder

[jimarilyn]

I can't see how anyone can see the finding of the gun and ammo as anything other than a plant - come to that, the bus cleaner looks more like a CID man or a film extra to me than a lowly LT cleaner LOL (see Getty pic). Most LT staff then as now were black, weren't they?? And did this guy *really* lift the back seat up *every* night? - how convenient that this particular 36A happened to fall into his hard-working hands for cleaning that very night, what??!!

Hi Sara,

The following BBC link has been posted previously, but just in case you're not familiar with it there is a fascinating 93 second video clip of the cleaner Edwin Cooke speaking the day after his discovery of the Enfield.38 revolver.

regards,
James

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/23/newsid_3013000/3013236.stm

[Sara]

Cool James I'll listen in tomorrow, I'm in someone's house right now and they are all asleep (I'm horsing about for a few days in Lambourn )

I've had to turn my laptop sound off in case the new double "Hell- ohoh" freaks them all out - and scares the horses


PS I'm up to 69 on the thread now (blush) - which ends at post 690!

[Tony]

Cool James I'll listen in tomorrow, I'm in someone's house right now and they are all asleep (I'm horsing about for a few days in Lambourn )

I've had to turn my laptop sound off in case the new double "Hell- ohoh" freaks them all out - and scares the horses


PS I'm up to 69 on the thread now (blush) - which ends at post 690!

Hello boys,

Well it’s good isn’t it? All the lads get stick on here for being a bit over the top and yes some of them deserve it; and you know who you are.

But I’ve just started to read the latest additions to the thread and I must say it’s the gentlewomen who are now dragging this thread downhill.

Two weeks ago we had Caz threatening to "get her jugs out" and last night Sara informs us she was "up to 69". Well cut it out girls there are other web sites more suited to your activities.

Tony.

PS only joking girls.

[Sara]

Hi Steve.

I think John Kerr would have given as good as he got from Plod! But you're right - in those days the police were totally above board....

Cheers, Graham

Heh heh Tony, sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities - it's the salacious nature of this case doncha know! Reminds me of my mis-spent youth


Graham I can assure you the police were a good deal WORSE in the days before there was a mountain of paper-trail even for every
questioning in the street!

anyone remember the GEORGE DAVIS IS INNOCENT campaign, which covered London in the mid 70s? One of the Met officers who nicked him was until recently the landlord of my lcoal pub, and told me the story.... However I'd better not tell it to you lot on here as I see he is STILL trying to get the verdict quashed!
See http://tinyurl.com/5dwrvb

About three years ago the family QC was involved in a very high profile criminal case which collapsed partly due to evidence which went missing at a late stage from police custody, one of a long list of blips in a very long drawn out case. He was adamant that someone high up in the investigation had been 'got at' and was obstructing the prosecution

[Sara]

hi Steve

i would agree that it’s sensible to accept the Hanratty was probably the gunman, but i still cannot accept the dna evidence per se. call me stupid if you will but...


dna evidence cannot be argued by the layperson. this means the accused cannot face his accuser. not unless the accused just happens to be an 'expert' dna scientist, and could conduct the tests for himself. in the same way a layperson cannot argue law with a lawyer, or medicine with a doctor, as both those worthies would aks the layperson 'where did you gain your degree?, what's that? you don't have one, then you are not qualified to talk on the subject'. the layperson and anything they had to say would then be summarily dismissed.

the amount of dna extracted from the hanratty's remains was insufficient to perform an analysis. so it was subjected to a process whereby it was "grown" till it was large enough. cloned if you will. reproduced. so the dna tested was only a reproduction of dna not real dna? is that what this means?

we would assume the tests are carried out by a thoroughly trained and experienced technician, we would further assume the tests are carried out in a scrupulously clean clinical laboratory with accreditted clean-room conditions, with all equipment correctly sterilized, not in a grubby little test lab with people sneezing and coughing all over?

what safeguards are there in place to ensure mistakes do not occur with the samples or procedures. can we feel confident that the dna laboratories are run as efficiently as our nhs labs, who regularly manage to **** up tests and send test results to the wrong patients, informing them they have the clap when in reality they have cancer and vice versa???

how can we be sure that the results are 'interpreted' correctly. an interpretation is only a matter of opinion after all, and as we all know, opinions can be, shall we say, influenced by certain considerations.

even the 'experts' acknowledge the possibility of cross contamination, as stated in the appeal transcript, so how can the layperson, or expert for that matter, be confident that the whole procedure from sample collection to final analysis is beyond reproach, and will produce results that are beyond all reasonable doubt? add to this that the insufficient sample dna had been decomposing in the ground for over forty years, and the other samples [hanky, knicker fragment] had never been subject to today's [one would hope] stringent handling and storage techniques? [those famous cardboard boxes]

what guarantee is there? how can the general public be confident that such testing, and the people who carry out the tests are totally infallible, and incorruptable?



i guess i will never be totally convinced either way, unless maybe something new comes up at some point in the future. but then, after all that has passed, is there anybody out there who is interested enough to start all over again. i think not. the official view, which was wanted all the time, will remain. guilty-case closed. now forget it!

Having read the whole of the DNA thread, I'm posting this back comment form larue as it sums up my own feelings aobut the DNA evidence. Anyoen who takes it as 'proving' anything at this late date fails to understand how poor the collection and storage of samples was at that date, and how infinitessimal the sample of DNA used was, let alone that it was and admixture, and must have also been very degraded.

In order for it get on the fragment of panties, this fragment ould only need to have been in contact briefly with something actually worn/used by Hanratty - and the police had many items, willingly given them by him.

The other thing which struck me forcibly was reading that Alphon's samples were tested in the the same lab and at the same time as Hanratty's! If you were determined to convict one over the other.... Remeber Alphon was the same ethnic group AND BLOOD TYPE as Hanratty

I'm going to post all the notes I made while reading the DNA thread onto the end of that thread in order nto clutter up this one, but if anyone has any comments to make they can cut and paste to reply here. In essence they are just quotes of the items I found particularly interesting in that thread, in raising doubts about the verdict of the recent appeal, on that thread, with a brief comment or question

The main stumbling block to seeing the appeal verdict as false on DNA grounds is that no trace of anyone else's DNA than Storie's and Hanratty's was found on the fragment of pany. But we know that Gregsten's DNA from semen was on the original fragment tested. So it's possible for several reasons that the rapist's DNA might not have been found - for a start he may not have ejaculated. So even that, for me doesn't put the DNA evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'

Steve and a few others have constantly baldly stated that the DBA evidence of the appeal trial put the verdict beyiond doubt. This is to misunderstand the fragility fo the science involved - which is not, remember, accepted in very many countries ( 3 only of which we are one ) and is NOT CAPAPABLE OF PEER GROUP TESTING AS ONLY THE 'OWNERS' OF THE TECHNIQUE ARE ALLOWED ACCESS TO IT'S METHOD AND INTERPRETATION.

Let's not forget, it's validity is entirely dependent on its accurate INTERPRETATION ... And these owners and operators have a strong financial interest in its infallibility!

QED, it's not to be trusted imo.


See also the piece here which imo demonstrates how naive the judges were!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1980731.stm

[Tony]

Heh heh Tony, sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities - it's the salacious nature of this case doncha know! Reminds me of my mis-spent youth


Graham I can assure you the police were a good deal WORSE in the days before there was a mountain of paper-trail even for every
questioning in the street!

anyone remember the GEORGE DAVIS IS INNOCENT campaign, which covered London in the mid 70s? One of the Met officers who nicked him was until recently the landlord of my lcoal pub, and told me the story.... However I'd better not tell it to you lot on here as I see he is STILL trying to get the verdict quashed!
See http://tinyurl.com/5dwrvb

About three years ago the family QC was involved in a very high profile criminal case which collapsed partly due to evidence which went missing at a late stage from police custody, one of a long list of blips in a very long drawn out case. He was adamant that someone high up in the investigation had been 'got at' and was obstructing the prosecution

Hello Sara,

Well I have certainly fallen in love with you. Where was I when you were misspending your youth?

Anyway thank you for the article regarding George Davis. I remember the case well not only for the George Davis is Innocent campaign but for the cricket match it affected.

I am completely obsessed with test match cricket and I remember at the time, when I was working for a living, actually doing a job at a woman’s house and I asked her if I could have the TV on so that I could watch the cricket. The match was fascinating, for me at any rate, and the last day it was abandoned before a ball could be bowled. Oil had been poured on the pitch and some pieces had been dug up and there were banners proclaiming George Davis was innocent. I had never heard of George Davis and the woman at whose house I was working, knowing my love of cricket, thought I would hate these people who had interrupted the match. She was surprised that I took the view that what they had done was acceptable. Even for me, not many, but some things are more important than test match cricket.
And I suppose that this is one of the reasons I still fight for the Hanratty cause.

Tony.

[Sara]

Tony, whatever the merits or demerits of that *particular* crime and case regarding George Davis, I would not wast your sympathy on him
Let's just say that the ex copper who told me the tale felt that it had been entirely necessary to get GD off the streets, as did all the squad - job done!

[Sara]

Hello ansonman

Yes, Gregsten’s murderer was a nutter, only a nutcase would abduct a courting couple in a cornfield at gunpoint and go on to shoot them both.

You ask if there was any evidence to show that Hanratty was a nutcase, well he had certainly been categorised as a mental defective. Is that the same thing? Probably not, but it does demonstrate that Hanratty was not a normal person and not someone who behaved normally.

Yes, he was a criminal, and no he didn’t have any previous history of violence, sex crime or using a gun or any other kind of deadly weapon. That said, his mental defective status must have made him more likely than the average man in the street to commit an inexplicable crime such as the A6 murder.

Hanratty could not read and write very well. He may well have been dyslexic, we just don't know; people knew nothing of dyslexia then. I know plenty of people in their 60s70s here in the country who never learned to read and write, but they are - most of them - highly intelligent. They were either badly taught at school or had undiagnosed problems

The term 'mental defective' was bandied about in those days in a shameful way - it was applied to almost anyone. When I was a kid I had a very severe stammer and that was enough to get me labelled a mental defective! - even by my teachers, and certainly by my mother - until I passed my 11 plus to everyone amazement. In fact I had and have a pretty high IQ, and could read when I was 3 years old! But all through my life I've had people assume I'm a 'mental defective' because I can't speak like other people.

The phrase in the context of Hanratty is utterly meaningless. It was meaningless then - it rested on no tests or discernible basis - and it's certainly meaningless at this remove

[Victor]

In order for it get on the fragment of panties, this fragment ould only need to have been in contact briefly with something actually worn/used by Hanratty - and the police had many items, willingly given them by him.

But the knicker fragment was never presented at the trial, the knickers went to the lab and the piece was cut out and kept separate.

The other thing which struck me forcibly was reading that Alphon's samples were tested in the the same lab and at the same time as Hanratty's! If you were determined to convict one over the other.... Remeber Alphon was the same ethnic group AND BLOOD TYPE as Hanratty

Wrong, the items were examined on different days.

The main stumbling block to seeing the appeal verdict as false on DNA grounds is that no trace of anyone else's DNA than Storie's and Hanratty's was found on the fragment of pany. But we know that Gregsten's DNA from semen was on the original fragment tested. So it's possible for several reasons that the rapist's DNA might not have been found - for a start he may not have ejaculated. So even that, for me doesn't put the DNA evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'

The fragment cut from the knickers was semen stained, this was discussed on the other thread - if there was enough semen to blood-type it, which there was blood-type O the same as Alphon and Hanratty, then there was enough semen to DNA test.

Steve and a few others have constantly baldly stated that the DBA evidence of the appeal trial put the verdict beyiond doubt. This is to misunderstand the fragility fo the science involved - which is not, remember, accepted in very many countries ( 3 only of which we are one ) and is NOT CAPAPABLE OF PEER GROUP TESTING AS ONLY THE 'OWNERS' OF THE TECHNIQUE ARE ALLOWED ACCESS TO IT'S METHOD AND INTERPRETATION.

"Fragility" is definitely inappropriate, it's entire it's lack of fragility that makes it so sensitive. And it's not yet accepted in more than 3 countries.

Let's not forget, it's validity is entirely dependent on its accurate INTERPRETATION ... And these owners and operators have a strong financial interest in its infallibility!

Where's the evidence for that statement?

See also the piece here which imo demonstrates how naive the judges were!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1980731.stm

Erm... That piece makes a fundamental error in discussing the possibility of contamination - No contamination profiles were found. Only JH and VS. JH raped VS. QED.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Tony, whatever the merits or demerits of that *particular* crime and case regarding George Davis, I would not wast your sympathy on him
Let's just say that the ex copper who told me the tale felt that it had been entirely necessary to get GD off the streets, as did all the squad - job done!

Hi Sara,

Many people believe the police thought the same about Hanratty - he was one of only 8 prisoners who served full terms for his previous offenses due to his attitude and behavior in prison.

Of course Hanratty was guilty of this one as the DNA proves.

KR,
Vic.

[SteveS]

Hello

Hello
I stumbled upon this forum by chance when surfing the web about the Hanratty case. There appears to be some serious A6 murder fanatics on here. I haven't come across anything like it elsewhere!
I wasn't even born when the events actually happened. I had become a big Paul Foot fan through his columns in the papers and such. I have also been to political meetings and heard him speak. Very impressive and impassioned speaker indeed. I heard a little about the case from my dad but after reading Who Killed Hanratty I became a bit obsessed to say the least.
I became a little disheartened after the Hanratty familys last appeal was turned down a few years ago. I have only recently re-read Paul Foots book and have been looking for other sources of information. That is how I found this site.
To me, Hanratty was fitted up by the old bill. It seems that so much evidence points to Peter Alphon being the A6 murderer.
After the latest appeal with the DNA that was found made me feel dispirited to say the least, especially with regard to all of the Rhyl people and non-disclosure of evidence. I couldn't believe it.
I'm no scientist but I am sceptical enough to want to know a bit more about what was actually found by the DNA scientists. To me nothing is ever that certain, bar death and crooked establishment figures.
I will read up some more of the postings here and on the DNA section...that looks a bit scary,,,and post up some points that I might have.
Merry Xmas, if I am not back before then.
Steve

[jimarilyn]

Hi SteveS,

I'd like to welcome you to this thread, you've submitted an impressive first post. I hope this is just the first of many.


regards,
James

[SteveS]

Hello James
Thank you for you kind welcome.
I am not sure where to start, but the main points I have are;
Alphon seems to be the main suspect, although not picked out by anyone bar that Mrs Dulally, he does resemble closely onr of the original id pictures. He appears also to have been seen near the murder scene by various people around the time of murder.
Nobody has seen Hanratty there but loads of people did in Rhyl.
Although there is the evidence of the gun and the bullet caese that were found I think that these were planted.
He was picked out by a few people but how much of a view did they all get? The blokes in east London may not even have seen the car because of the old bill withholding the cars actual distance traveled.
As for Valerie Storie I can only sympathise with her plite. But I don't trust her testimony as it changed too much from the time of the murder untill the truial.
As for the DNA,, I will read up on the other posts in that section and see what thet say.
Thnx
Steve

[Tony]

Hello James
Thank you for you kind welcome.
I am not sure where to start, but the main points I have are;
Alphon seems to be the main suspect, although not picked out by anyone bar that Mrs Dulally, he does resemble closely onr of the original id pictures. He appears also to have been seen near the murder scene by various people around the time of murder.
Nobody has seen Hanratty there but loads of people did in Rhyl.
Although there is the evidence of the gun and the bullet caese that were found I think that these were planted.
He was picked out by a few people but how much of a view did they all get? The blokes in east London may not even have seen the car because of the old bill withholding the cars actual distance traveled.
As for Valerie Storie I can only sympathise with her plite. But I don't trust her testimony as it changed too much from the time of the murder untill the truial.
As for the DNA,, I will read up on the other posts in that section and see what thet say.
Thnx
Steve

Hello Steve and a warm welcome,

If you take notice all the main witnesses who gave evidence against Hanratty were of a dubious nature: Dixie France, Louise Anderson, Roy Landale and dare I say it Basil Acott. Compare this to the people who spoke up for him; all ordinary people who stood to gain nothing by doing so.
The Rhyl witnesses did not come out years after the case as people seem to think. They were making statements before Hanratty was executed and one thing that is very compelling is that the day in question when they say that they saw Hanratty was the only day at that time that they were all in Rhyl. It couldn’t have been another day.

You say you are going to have a look at the DNA thread; well good luck to you. There is tons of info on there but it’s hard to understand. Well it is for me anyway.

But if you do need any information just ask somebody will be able to help and be only too pleased to do so.

Tony.

[Victor]

Compare this to the people who spoke up for him; all ordinary people who stood to gain nothing by doing so.

Hi Tony,

Erm...His family might have hoped to get a pardon and compensation!

A few authors got paid to write their books, and their royalties.

Foot got publicity and possibly increased sales figures for Private Eye.

So not "nothing" then, even if was "notoriety" and "publicity", or "their 15 minutes".

KR,
Vic.

ps Welcome Steve.