a6 murder

[alan]

Alan, I've always wondered why everyone seems to assume that Hanratty went RIGHT AWAY from the Vienna to Paddington on the morning of that fateful day. Could he not perhaps have gone 'down the Rehearsal Club' or maybe indulged in what appears to have been one of his favourite pastimes with one of his lady friends (say, the one in Soho?).

He may well not have headed out Slough way until much later in the day (or, of course, as some might say - not at all).

Regards,
Jim

Well Jim,

I think that comes to about the same thing as I asked Graham.

And, quite rightly why not pop down the rehearsal club for whatever plus some pleasurable company first. I prefer this option!

I suppose he could have been collecting the gun; hence the amount of ammunition he was supposed to have on him.

Changing views, I could just believe that the Dinwoodie alibi was bought but it would have been a really dangerous matter for JH to change the Liverpool alibi for a completely false one in Rhyl. How would he know he could get any witnesses at all (reliable or not) from Rhyl? Chance?

Regards,

Alan

[reg1965]

Hi Reg,

Well, I certainly am not naive enough to imagine there are no bent coppers around but I feel that when you examine D.S. Acott's overall career in the Flying Squad and Murder Squad, it's a pretty impressive one, including the capture of police murderer Gunter Padola and the Worthing bank guard killer Victor Terry. Admittedly in Padola's case there were claims of police brutality during the apprehension but they could hardly have been expected to say 'I say, old boy, would you mind awfully giving us a moment of your time and dropping down to Chelsea cop shop with us - just when you're ready, of course'. I just can't see Acott as having stitched JH up although I admit that he should certainly have been more forthcoming about the Rhyl witnesses and the car mileage.

On those two latter points, though, there's considerable room for interpretation/misinterpretation. Mike Gregsten could have filled the car up with petrol at any time of the day that Tuesday (in fact, do we even know that he filled it up at all, or partly fill it or what?). Sightings of the car extended as far north as Glasgow and most seem quite unreliable. So too do most of the Rhyl witnesses, many of whom were quite vague, saying things like 'might have been', 'looked quite like' etc. I think the best one is the chap who claimed to have been approached by a guy wanting to sell a watch (Trevor Dutton, was it?). He had documentary evidence (stamp in his cheque-book or some such) of the date in question.

Regards,
Jim

Hi Jim
Para 1
Acott should also not have falsified interview notes he took from JH inter alia.

Para 2
The non disclosed mileage given between Gregsten's last fill up on the 22nd August (R vs Hanratty, 2002. para 154) and what was recorded at Avondale Crescent is 232 miles (R vs Hanratty, 2002. para 154).
Who knows what exact time Gregsten last filled up, whether the reading was correct and how many miles he travelled before arriving at the cornfield. All we know is that the mileage is a heck of a lot more than was originally thought and was withheld from the defence on this point because it would have knackered the identification witness testimony of Skillett and Trower.
As for Rhyl.
JH said he asked 5 or 6 times for bed and breakfast.
Mrs Grace Jones (later Mrs Brenda Harris, Mrs Jones' daughter)
Mrs Margaret Walker (definite on date)
Mrs Ivy Vincent (same time as Mrs Walker)
Mrs Betty Davis
Mr Christopher Larman (definite on date)
These people all saw Hanratty in Rhyl on the evening of 23rd August 1961.
You can demolish any set of witnesses to an alibi by picking holes in each one separately but that would mean all cases would soon collapse for lack of evidence.
Taken together, JH's Rhyl alibi is complete and takes some shifting. For instance how many times was he seen in London after leaving the Vienna. Once...by an actor, Mr Da Costa, at Euston station on his way to Liverpool.

Reg

[jimarilyn]

24th November 1961

Hi all,

Friday 24th November 1961 was a strange birthday indeed for Valerie Storie.
It was the day she gave evidence (in camera) for the Magistrate's Court hearing. The makeshift court sat in the hospital gymnasium at Stoke Mandeville where Miss Storie testified for 6 hours.
Afterwards she had a 23rd birthday party.
Four special guests came to the party at her own invitation.
Can you guess the identity of one of these special guests ?
Yes none other than Det Supt Basil Montague Acott.
Incidentally it will be Valerie's 70th birthday in a couple of weeks, I hope she has a happy one.

regards,
James

[Limehouse]

Re Valerie Storey's forthcoming 70th birthday, I think it's important to remember (and this has been mentioned borefore, but it's worth saying again) that whoever committed the crime that night, their actions created many victims whose lives would never be the same again. Gregsten had two small children and a wife and he had other family too. Valerie Storey's life was changed forever. She lost a close friend (whatever anyone thinks of the relationship - she loved him and lost him) and she lost her mobility and independence at a time when it was very hard for disabled people to have anything like a normal life. Hanratty's family lost a loved son and brother and had to live with the shame of his conviction and execution. Charles France's family lost a husband and father and Alphon's family experienced intrusion and embarrassment due to his connection with the events. And what of the policemen and emergency services personnel who had to deal with the events that morning and the jury members who had the unenviable task of reaching a verdict based on the evidence presented? It's so easy for us to be flippant and detached from the fact that these are real people for whom this event was all too real.

[alan]

Re Valerie Storey's forthcoming 70th birthday, I think it's important to remember (and this has been mentioned borefore, but it's worth saying again) that whoever committed the crime that night, their actions created many victims whose lives would never be the same again. Gregsten had two small children and a wife and he had other family too. Valerie Storey's life was changed forever. She lost a close friend (whatever anyone thinks of the relationship - she loved him and lost him) and she lost her mobility and independence at a time when it was very hard for disabled people to have anything like a normal life. Hanratty's family lost a loved son and brother and had to live with the shame of his conviction and execution. Charles France's family lost a husband and father and Alphon's family experienced intrusion and embarrassment due to his connection with the events. And what of the policemen and emergency services personnel who had to deal with the events that morning and the jury members who had the unenviable task of reaching a verdict based on the evidence presented? It's so easy for us to be flippant and detached from the fact that these are real people for whom this event was all too real.

Dear Limehouse,

Poignant and correct in every respect.

It's easy for us to lose site of the personal grief in our quest for certain closure.

Regards,

Alan

[Graham]

Hi Limehouse,

Couldn't agree more with what you say. There are people alive today who are still suffering deep anguish over the A6 Case, not least of whom is Valerie Storie.

Graham

[Victor]

Pure conjecture. Plus if it was used why wasn't anything picked up in 1995 when the tests where inconclusive. You can't have it both ways. LCN was used in 1997 and a mixed profile would have been obtained. The rfu levels would have been so low so as to make allele peaks from one profile undecipherable from another. Subtracting known profiles doesn't help either because you then remove possible matches to other profiles and the known profile may be matched against alleles from other profiles in the mix. It is just not possible to use LCN to determine a single profile. Yours, mine and any Tom, Dick and Harry's DNA could be in there for all we know! It is plain that it is just a guess that anybody's DNA was there that the FSS said were and similarly for those they said were not.

You are quite right, your paragraph above is pure conjecture, I'm glad you pre-warned us.

It doesn't matter how many times you give wrong information, it's still wrong. For example:-
"The rfu levels would have been so low so as..."
"It is just not possible to use LCN to determine a single profile"
"Yours, mine and any Tom, Dick and Harry's DNA could be in there for all we know"
"It is plain that it is just a guess that anybody's DNA was there "

All 4 statements above are predicting the results of the experiment, and the actual results given in the judgment show the statements above are all incorrect.

Only one from the appelant. LCN experts all worked for the FSS at that time!

Thank you for the admission that there were expert opinions despite you saying there weren't.

The Rhyl alibi has been validated by at least 11 3rd Parties. VS's testimony has not been shown to be validated by anyone else. The Redbridge witnesses who picked out JH were both wrong because the car was not there at that time. Both the cars mileage and contradictory sightings of it's abandonment in Avondale Crescent prove this to be so.

Nope, the Rhyl witnesses have not been validated, they're obviously wrong or mistaken.

As for VS, the bullets pulled out of her show she was shot, the semen on her knickers shows she was raped, the dead body shows MG was murdered, and I'm sure there were one or two doctors that established those 3 things validating her account.

We are all entitled to our opinions but I feel that it is becoming a waste of time arguing with you mate. I have given you all the information you need to find out all about LCN DNA but you are plainly not interested in looking at the facts. You have swallowed the official judgement hook, line and sinker (like johnl) and are trying to find loopholes out of the LCN net. I am not at all convinced by any of your arguments on the DNA evidence.
JamesDean, DM and jimarylin have not posted on the other thread for well over 2 weeks. I think that that are bored arguing the toss with you too.

I have looked at your information and come to a different conclusion to you, and I think you'll find that it's you looking for loopholes to discredit the LCN data - don't forget it's a legally recognised technique in this country, therefore you are the one trying to overturn the legitimate conclusion it draws by inventing things like LCN is so sensitive you always get contamination despite the fact that your own data indicates that contamination only occurs in 70% of cases (see other thread).

As for the last line, "bored arguing the toss" or "conceded defeat". I tend to view it as the latter because they haven't come up with anything new for a while that would discredit the judgment.

I hope this thread continues to elicit the little gems of information that it has done right from the start, both for and against Hanratty. Extremely entrenched views are becoming quite apparent; although quite a few newbies have come forward recently and I hope that their enthusiasm will carry the thread forward. New blood is always welcomed.

Reg

Well said. See we can agree occasionally!

KR,
Vic.

[Joseph]

Hi all,

Friday 24th November 1961 was a strange birthday indeed for Valerie Storie.
It was the day she gave evidence (in camera) for the Magistrate's Court hearing. The makeshift court sat in the hospital gymnasium at Stoke Mandeville where Miss Storie testified for 6 hours.
Afterwards she had a 23rd birthday party.
Four special guests came to the party at her own invitation.
Can you guess the identity of one of these special guests ?
Yes none other than Det Supt Basil Montague Acott.
Incidentally it will be Valerie's 70th birthday in a couple of weeks, I hope she has a happy one.

regards,
James

Hello James,

A very interesting and revealing post. I've long been interested in this unique case but was totally unaware of Miss Storey having a birthday celebration at Stoke Manderville hospital. It would seem from your post that Miss Storey was on very good terms with Bob Acott for him to be considered a special birthday guest. Mmmm ....definitely gives pause for thought. I wonder how much of an influence Mr Acott was on her ?

peace and best wishes, Joseph.

[simon]

Hi Joseph,
'Mmm...Pause for thought' ? Well, come on! It's hardly surprising that Acott, who was probably seeing her on a regular basis anyway, looked in on her birthday 'party'. He'd have been there anyway if it was the same day she was giving evidence...at the hospital. So, with all due respect to Jim, I hardly think his was 'a very interesting and revealing post'. Pretty bad manners if Acott HADN'T shown up, I'd have thought !

I think I can understand why Steve doesn't contribute any more.

[Limehouse]

I don't think Acott's attendance at Valerie's birthday celebration was anything more than common courtesy and respect for a young lady who had suffered a terrible ordeal. It was probably something of a fatherly gesture towards a young woman who had suffered a terrible ordeal. In those days, men were rather protective towards young women.

[reg1965]

Hi Joseph,
'Mmm...Pause for thought' ? Well, come on! It's hardly surprising that Acott, who was probably seeing her on a regular basis anyway, looked in on her birthday 'party'. He'd have been there anyway if it was the same day she was giving evidence...at the hospital. So, with all due respect to Jim, I hardly think his was 'a very interesting and revealing post'. Pretty bad manners if Acott HADN'T shown up, I'd have thought !

I think I can understand why Steve doesn't contribute any more.

Hi Simon
It was not as if VS was in police custody. I am sure that VS could have invited anyone she liked. How many would have been allowed to visit at the time may have been the overriding factor. Maybe she had Big Baz along for protection. Who knows?

I am sure though that VS was coached by Big Baz after PLA was out of the picture.

I don't think that this is as interesting as the VS and JG meetings. I would liked to have been a fly on the wall there! I am sure that JG said something like "Valerie is my friend" after one of them. Blimey!

Steve last posted on 6/9 his last view was 24/10. If he had something to say I'm sure he would say it.

Reg

[reg1965]

You are quite right, your paragraph above is pure conjecture, I'm glad you pre-warned us.

It doesn't matter how many times you give wrong information, it's still wrong. For example:-
"The rfu levels would have been so low so as..."
"It is just not possible to use LCN to determine a single profile"
"Yours, mine and any Tom, Dick and Harry's DNA could be in there for all we know"
"It is plain that it is just a guess that anybody's DNA was there "

All 4 statements above are predicting the results of the experiment, and the actual results given in the judgment show the statements above are all incorrect.



Thank you for the admission that there were expert opinions despite you saying there weren't.



Nope, the Rhyl witnesses have not been validated, they're obviously wrong or mistaken.

As for VS, the bullets pulled out of her show she was shot, the semen on her knickers shows she was raped, the dead body shows MG was murdered, and I'm sure there were one or two doctors that established those 3 things validating her account.



I have looked at your information and come to a different conclusion to you, and I think you'll find that it's you looking for loopholes to discredit the LCN data - don't forget it's a legally recognised technique in this country, therefore you are the one trying to overturn the legitimate conclusion it draws by inventing things like LCN is so sensitive you always get contamination despite the fact that your own data indicates that contamination only occurs in 70% of cases (see other thread).

As for the last line, "bored arguing the toss" or "conceded defeat". I tend to view it as the latter because they haven't come up with anything new for a while that would discredit the judgment.



Well said. See we can agree occasionally!

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic
Taking your final point first, yes, we do agree on some points. Not the DNA but doubts regarding the original verdict.

For the most your post is a just a little rant about how much you want Hanratty's innocence of this crime buried for reasons you have not yet cogently presented. Did you believe once, so much, that JH was innocent, then along comes all of the whole DNA magic trick (which you don't how it works) to make you feel that you had been fooled all along? One crumb of comfort though is that you are not alone. The club includes Leonard Miller, johnl, Graham and Maverick90125 or whatever his name is. (No that was a Yes album wasn't it?!)

Seriously though, if I were you, I would avoid using quoted phrases such as "conceded defeat" as to attribute it to a quote of mine because it wasn't. Do it again and I will seek advice from the admin team. Say what you mean but don't try to misquote me pal.

I can understand why you did it. You feel that you are right and we are wrong and thus because we haven't posted for so long we have conceeded defeat. I have a surprise for you sunshine. The posters here who do understand the LCN/LT technology are trying to do you a favour if only you would read what they have written and also read the linked articles that they have placed in your lap.

We are not doing this to argue the toss, we believe that a grave miscarriage of justice has ocurred and are trying to explain it to those who will listen.

In my opinion, in your particular case, you are deaf!

Reg

[jimarilyn]

Hi Joseph,
'Mmm...Pause for thought' ? Well, come on! It's hardly surprising that Acott, who was probably seeing her on a regular basis anyway, looked in on her birthday 'party'. He'd have been there anyway if it was the same day she was giving evidence...at the hospital. So, with all due respect to Jim, I hardly think his was 'a very interesting and revealing post'. Pretty bad manners if Acott HADN'T shown up, I'd have thought !

I think I can understand why Steve doesn't contribute any more.

Hi Simon,

Acott was one of four specially invited guests expressly chosen by Valerie Storie to attend her birthday party (the other three incidentally were Det-Sgt Harry Heavens, of Scotland Yard, Det-Chief Inspector Harold Whiffen of Bedford County police and Mr E.G. MacDermott prosecuting counsel). It wasn't a case of Acott "looking in" on her party.
The identification parade at which Valerie Storie picked out Hanratty had taken place a full 6 weeks earlier, so what need was there for Acott to have had prolonged contact with the chief prosecution witness thereafter ? This would have been an unhealthy and undesirable (in the interest of justice) state of affairs.
I don't for one minute buy the "fatherly concern" scenario which Limehouse suggests. Valerie had her own father, John, looking out for his daughter's welfare, so she wouldn't have needed any fatherly gestures from Acott.
My own gut feelings are that Acott did a lot of coaching of and suggesting to Miss Storie.
Michael Sherrard did not have a high opinion of Basil Acott at all, and I can fully appreciate where he was coming from.

regards
James

[reg1965]

Hi all
Considering the only time that JH was seen in London after leaving the Vienna Hotel was at Euston Station on his way to Liverpool, then when was Alphon spotted in London during the evening of the 22nd and all day of the 23rd?
The alibi he gave was he saw his mother in Streatham mid evening and checked into the Vienna around 11pm.
Does his mothers alibi stand up.
When was he actually seen at the Vienna after he said he met his mother.
11pm on the 22nd?
About breakfast time on the 23rd?
Or about midday on the 23rd?

Reports of him looking dishevelled and with a pair of black gloves have been recorded.
Reg

[jimarilyn]

Hi all
Considering the only time that JH was seen in London after leaving the Vienna Hotel was at Euston Station on his way to Liverpool, then when was Alphon spotted in London during the evening of the 22nd and all day of the 23rd?
The alibi he gave was he saw his mother in Streatham mid evening and checked into the Vienna around 11pm.
Does his mothers alibi stand up.
When was he actually seen at the Vienna after he said he met his mother.
11pm on the 22nd?
About breakfast time on the 23rd?
Or about midday on the 23rd?

Reports of him looking dishevelled and with a pair of black gloves have been recorded.
Reg

Hi Reg,

Similar to the "antiques shop" murder case of five and a half months earlier the prime suspect tried to bring in his mother to corroborate his alibi and in both cases the mother failed to do so. Alphon's mother could only say that she met her son on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday.

Of the three statements William (Billy Liar) Nudds gave to the police the most convincing and detailed one was his second one, which was supported by the Vienna Hotel records, and which strongly implicated Alphon, who as we all know had already been brought in for questioning a couple or so weeks earlier because of his suspicious and attention drawing behaviour at the Alexandra Court Hotel.

Just where Alphon drove to immediately after leaving Miss Storie for dead remains open to conjecture and speculation. My guess is that he slipped into the Vienna Hotel while the hotel staff were busy serving breakfasts.


regards,
James