a6 murder

[simon]

It was a very slim volume published not long after Foot's death. However, if Ingrams wrote the article mentioned as recently as Feb 2007, it seems he may have had third thoughts!

[reg1965]

It was a very slim volume published not long after Foot's death. However, if Ingrams wrote the article mentioned as recently as Feb 2007, it seems he may have had third thoughts!

Hi Simon
It would seem that the book is called 'My Friend Footy' (2005) and also it would seem that Ingrams is not a jimdiditite.
Reg

[reg1965]

PS: Reg, is there any truth in the rumour that your aluminium goalkeeper is in training for the part of the Tin Man in The Wizard of OZ?

Tony
I warned you about mentioning football...can't blame Meccano Aluminium for the current, umm, downtime in fortunes. I blame the directors of Portsmouth!
Take care
Reg

[alan]

Hello everybody,

Can anyone, particularly on the ‘Hanratty did it’ side of the fence, tell me when Valerie Storie decided on the second ID parade that Hanratty was her man? What gave him away and do you think Valerie was 100% honest in her account of both parades at the trial and since?
What do you think was the one thing that enabled her to point her finger at Hanratty and has her evidence always been consistent?
I await your views with interest.

Incidentally and just as an aside did you know that the alleged Liverpool comedian Alexei Sale’s father was staying at Ingledene during the week of the murder?

Tony.

Hi Tony,

A bit late with a reply I know but I can't believe that VS was being completely candid throughout.

To start with, I think the second identification was after she admitted to her memory of the murderer fading and I feel that Acott helped along with the identity. Quite why Acott might have done this is perplexing. Perhaps it was on the basis of "if we can't find the right guy anybody will do".

VS appears to have got the garages completely wrong and the story of the tying-up with the third hand holding the revolver seems farcical. By the way, did the murderer untie them after his kip and were the tie and the length of rope ever found and used in evidence?

Alan

[simon]

Hi Alan,
'If we can't find the right guy anybody will do'....when it was a hanging matter ? I think we'd have to be ultra-cynical to believe that was Acott's position!

Regards,
Simon

[Victor]

Hi Tony,

A bit late with a reply I know but I can't believe that VS was being completely candid throughout.

To start with, I think the second identification was after she admitted to her memory of the murderer fading and I feel that Acott helped along with the identity. Quite why Acott might have done this is perplexing. Perhaps it was on the basis of "if we can't find the right guy anybody will do".

VS appears to have got the garages completely wrong and the story of the tying-up with the third hand holding the revolver seems farcical. By the way, did the murderer untie them after his kip and were the tie and the length of rope ever found and used in evidence?

Alan

Hi Alan et al,

Why do people find it necessary to create a huge conspiracy around VS identification evidence?

Is it so difficult to believe that a woman who'd been forced to watch her lover being murdered, AND is then brutally raped, AND is then shot and left for dead, AND is asked to give as much evidence at the murder spot because she might not survive much longer, AND is then told she'll have a prolonged period in hospital and may never walk again, etc. could be somewhat confused about what had happened on her long ordeal?

And her only crime? Being seduced and having sex with a serial adulteror.

The 11 good people of the jury believed her evidence and convicted JH and to answer Tony's question, like them I believe she believed she was being 100% honest 100% of the time.

KR,
Vic.

[Tony]

Hi Alan et al,

Why do people find it necessary to create a huge conspiracy around VS identification evidence?

Is it so difficult to believe that a woman who'd been forced to watch her lover being murdered, AND is then brutally raped, AND is then shot and left for dead, AND is asked to give as much evidence at the murder spot because she might not survive much longer, AND is then told she'll have a prolonged period in hospital and may never walk again, etc. could be somewhat confused about what had happened on her long ordeal?

And her only crime? Being seduced and having sex with a serial adulteror.

The 11 good people of the jury believed her evidence and convicted JH and to answer Tony's question, like them I believe she believed she was being 100% honest 100% of the time.

KR,
Vic.

Hello Vic,

Hope the move was relatively painless for you

Well if you believe Valerie Storie, and believe me or believe me not but I have the greatest sympathy for her, 100% of the time then how do you explain the different versions she gives of the Hanratty parade at the trial and the one shortly after his execution she gives in the Today magazine.
Which one are we to accept as correct?

Your good mate,

Tony.

[Victor]

Hello Vic,

Hope the move was relatively painless for you

Hi Tony,
It was very painful, we didn't move, postponed until next weekend.

Well if you believe Valerie Storie, and believe me or believe me not but I have the greatest sympathy for her, 100% of the time then how do you explain the different versions she gives of the Hanratty parade at the trial and the one shortly after his execution she gives in the Today magazine.
Which one are we to accept as correct?

Your good mate,

Tony.

But this:-
"In Today magazine a few weeks after Hanratty had been executed Valerie Storie said:
“I had waited for twenty minutes knowing that this man who had trampled my life underfoot like a worm was suffering in that empty thing he called his soul.”

So according to that Miss Storie did not even need to ask them to speak she had recognised the man with the orange hair immediately. Then why go into court and say it was the voice that gave him away?"

Could be journalistic embellishment. Or she waited 20 minutes contemplating and pondering whether she was completely sure it was him.

But my major issue, is how did you conclude that she made her mind up before asking them to speak? Nowhere does it explicitly say that.

KR,
Vic.

ps To get this thread on a more even sporty footing "Well done Lewis Hamilton!!"

[PC49]

Hi Alan,
'If we can't find the right guy anybody will do'....when it was a hanging matter ? I think we'd have to be ultra-cynical to believe that was Acott's position!

Regards,
Simon

Hello Simon,
I can't really understand why anyone would be ultra-cynical to believe Acott's position. Surely you must have heard about Liverpool's notorious Chief Superintendent Herbert Balmer, particularly his involvement in the infamous Cameo Murders?
Best regards.

[simon]

Hello PC 49,
Well no..actually I haven't heard of him.
Call me simple-minded if you like, but I think that if you're a policeman at the scene of a crime where one person's head has been nearly shot off, and another person is full of bullets - having also been raped - your first thought is not going to be "Let's hang someone for this even if he had nothing to do with it." I think you'd be quite keen to find the actual culprit. (Not least because he might go and do the same kind of thing again). Of course, later on, you might get it into your head that you've found the villain - and be mistaken about it. That's what we're all still debating. But "ANYBODY will do ?" No. I don't believe that. But I'd be interested to know if our fellow posters agree with you.

Simon

[Nemesis]

Reply to Simon's

Well I am a newbie here and am thrilled to find a site of people discussing a case that has intrigued/sickened/annoyed me for years... I have to say Simon I think you are wrong. I do believe it was a set up from the off with the family of the murdered philandering husband paying a thug (Alphon) to scare the amorous couple into ending their affair. When it went wrong which can happen when you hire a sick thug for a delicate job, all went into operation save face with the police implicit. I read in Infamous crimes of 20th cent' that shortly after Stories initial boo boo in the picking out in the line up that the murdered man's wife went to visit Storie in Hospital and they were allowed to have a private consultation that led to Storie with the help of Accot then accusing Hanratty. In fact i'd even go further to say that perhaps it did all go to plan and that Hanratty was set up all along to be the patsy by the gobetween and his daughter (the man that committed suicide, sorry name fails me) and that Gregstens' wife's family were behind it all!!! But what concerns me is how after all the Hanratty family went though how could the government/Police force whoever falsify DNA evidence just so they don't have to admit they killed an innocent (of this murder at least) man????

[reg1965]

Well I am a newbie here and am thrilled to find a site of people discussing a case that has intrigued/sickened/annoyed me for years... I have to say Simon I think you are wrong. I do believe it was a set up from the off with the family of the murdered philandering husband paying a thug (Alphon) to scare the amorous couple into ending their affair. When it went wrong which can happen when you hire a sick thug for a delicate job, all went into operation save face with the police implicit. I read in Infamous crimes of 20th cent' that shortly after Stories initial boo boo in the picking out in the line up that the murdered man's wife went to visit Storie in Hospital and they were allowed to have a private consultation that led to Storie with the help of Accot then accusing Hanratty. In fact i'd even go further to say that perhaps it did all go to plan and that Hanratty was set up all along to be the patsy by the gobetween and his daughter (the man that committed suicide, sorry name fails me) and that Gregstens' wife's family were behind it all!!! But what concerns me is how after all the Hanratty family went though how could the government/Police force whoever falsify DNA evidence just so they don't have to admit they killed an innocent (of this murder at least) man????

Hi Nemesis
Blimey...you don't pull your punches do you?
Welcome aboard.

The mans name is Charles 'Dixie' France and his daughters name is Carole.

I agree with you that Alphon was the murderer.
As far as DNA is concerned, it was only a guess that Hanratty's DNA was on the evidence so to exclude Alphon on the same principles would seem perverse.

The plot, if it did all go to plan as you say, must have meant that Gregsten was to be murdered and Valerie Storie only wounded, leaving her to misidentify Alphon yet pick out Hanratty. This discounts the theory of the plot to split MG and VS! It follows that if Ewer wanted MG dead at a price then he certainly got it.
Why was Alphon subsequently given such lenient treatment at subsequent court appearances? The attack on Hanrattys mother comes to mind most! He was even awarded damages!
Whatever happened, Hanratty was put in the frame from the off because of the planting of the gun on the bus.

Reg

[Victor]

As far as DNA is concerned, it was only a guess that Hanratty's DNA was on the evidence so to exclude Alphon on the same principles would seem perverse.

Hi Reg,

A guess?? Please can you elaborate on the above statement because to me it's just plain untrue.

The Facts...
Hanratty's semen was found on the knickers - in 1961 they discovered blood group O semen - and this could have been Hanratty or Alphon or 40%(ish) of the male population - and recently this semen was DNA-typed as a match for Hanratty and did not match Alphon.

Therefore any conspiracy theory would need to account for the semen being there in 1961.

KR,
Vic.

[JIMBOW]

Hello PC 49,
Well no..actually I haven't heard of him.
Call me simple-minded if you like, but I think that if you're a policeman at the scene of a crime where one person's head has been nearly shot off, and another person is full of bullets - having also been raped - your first thought is not going to be "Let's hang someone for this even if he had nothing to do with it." I think you'd be quite keen to find the actual culprit. (Not least because he might go and do the same kind of thing again). Of course, later on, you might get it into your head that you've found the villain - and be mistaken about it. That's what we're all still debating. But "ANYBODY will do ?" No. I don't believe that. But I'd be interested to know if our fellow posters agree with you.

Simon

I agree, Simon, I don't think Acott displayed an 'ANYBODY will do' attitude.

Regards,
Jim

[reg1965]

Hi Reg,

A guess?? Please can you elaborate on the above statement because to me it's just plain untrue.

The Facts...
Hanratty's semen was found on the knickers - in 1961 they discovered blood group O semen - and this could have been Hanratty or Alphon or 40%(ish) of the male population - and recently this semen was DNA-typed as a match for Hanratty and did not match Alphon.

Therefore any conspiracy theory would need to account for the semen being there in 1961.

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic
With LCN, involving such old DNA which was not stored properly (ie in envelopes instead of being frozen) the amount of DNA is microscopic and from the swabbed sample we would expect a mixed profile, VS/MG and A N Other. You just cannot detect one profile from another at the low rfu units exhibited by LCN.
Just because the FSS says they have a match and 3 non-experts buy it doesn't impress me too much.
The FSS dismissed Alphon (the appellant swallowed this) but on what grounds? The same as above? Good luck!

Yes semen was found in 1961, and it was O secretor, but not enough exists today to determine a 3rd party validatable single profile of the gunman.

We will just have go on ALL the other evidence now available. Hanratty is innocent.

Reg