a6 murder

[reg1965]

Hi all
Does anyone know how many bullets the Enfield revolver held when full?

Reg

[Tony]

Hi all
Does anyone know how many bullets the Enfield revolver held when full?

Reg

Hello Reg,

The article below from Infantry Equipment page:

Pistols
The British Army used a number of different pistols throughout the war but the main ones are listed below;
Enfield .38 No. 2 Mk I* revolver
This weapon served from 1936 to 1957 and was derived from those that served in the First World War. It weighed 0.780 kg, and was 264mm long. It held six .38 calibre cartridges in cylinder, with a double action trigger. It had a practical range of 30 metres. It had stiff trigger action and was generally regarded as inaccurate.[/SIZE]

Hope that’s of use to you.

Tony.

[alan]

Hi Reg,

I think each firing pin has a unique print on the cartridge case.

Alan

[Victor]

Hi Reg,

I think each firing pin has a unique print on the cartridge case.

Alan

Isn't it a bit like fingerprints? No two firing pins are identical or leave identical impact marks on the cartridges, but they can be similar especially if you don't get a clear print.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

The Enfield .38

Hi All,

On the subject of the Enfield revolver and it's convenient discovery so soon after the murder, I just can't help wondering why 5 full boxes of ammunition should be found alongside it. That's 60 cartridges. I seriously doubt that the gunman would carry so much ammunition on his person (besides the 9, 10 or 11 bullets fired from the gun at Deadman's Hill) unless perhaps he was expecting another Gunfight at the OK Corral. It just doesn't make any sense to carry over 70 rounds of ammunition in such a quiet and remote area as Dorney Reach/Common. Anyone have any ideas on this ?

regards,
James

[PC49]

Hi Tony,

Isn't that precisely the sort of alibi you'd want to buy? An enquiry memorable in that fact that it was for "Tarleton or Carlton Rd" at a specific place and time, well away from the murder site.

It could have been any of JH's fencing pals (and I don't mean the sort with foils) who are then in a perfect position to sell it to him.

Here's one of your little imaginary scenes to see how it goes:-
JH: "I'm looking for an alibi for 22nd August"
Pal: "I was in this sweet shop in Liverpool and asked this little grey-haired old lady the way to Tarleton Road, only I messed up and said Carlton Road."
JH: "Perfect just what I need"

Is this is a serious post, Victor, or is it a case of tongue being firmly in cheek??

[Tony]

Hi All,

On the subject of the Enfield revolver and it's convenient discovery so soon after the murder, I just can't help wondering why 5 full boxes of ammunition should be found alongside it. That's 60 cartridges. I seriously doubt that the gunman would carry so much ammunition on his person (besides the 9, 10 or 11 bullets fired from the gun at Deadman's Hill) unless perhaps he was expecting another Gunfight at the OK Corral. It just doesn't make any sense to carry over 70 rounds of ammunition in such a quiet and remote area as Dorney Reach/Common. Anyone have any ideas on this ?

regards,
James

Good afternoon James,

Strange you should mention the Gunfight at the OK Corral. It was the 127th anniversary two days ago of this historic event (26th Oct 1881). I have visited Tombstone, Arizona on several occasions and a splendid place it is. The actual gunfight was all over in a matter of seconds. Indeed nothing like the Kirk Douglas/Burt Lancaster film but the Kurt Russell/Val Kilmer film is pretty authentic. Compare that murder (yes Wyatt, his brothers and Doc were wanted for murder and stood trial) which took a few seconds to the A6 case which took hours and hours. Both famous events in their own ways but no films as yet of the A6.

In most of the films about the OK Corral Wyatt Earp comes across as the good guy. Perhaps this is because he survived everyone else and retold the story many times until his death in 1929. This historical event is not taught in American schools.

Getting back to the A6 case surely the gunman didn’t have all that ammo with him on the night of the murder but if he didn’t when and where did he retrieve it from and what lengths did he go to so he could put it in a safe hiding place on the bus? Or did somebody considerately do it for him? I know Gregston probably held the gun while the gunman tied up Valerie but do you think just after the tap on the car window the gunman would have said to Mike: “All this ammo and this gun are weighing me down would you mind holding these five boxes for me while I get comfy and don’t let me forget and go without them.”?

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

Hi Tony,

I'm a great fan of a good western. I was unaware that the actual gunfight at the OK Corral lasted just a few seconds. I've seen both films you mention and enjoyed both immensely.
Recently I saw a fine western (from 1954) on Film4 called "The Raid" with Van Heflin. It was based on a true story from the American Civil War about a Confederate attack on a small town in Vermont called St Alban's. I mention this simply because the Murder Car passed through a town by the same name.

A good last paragraph from you. Just exactly where was the Enfield while the gunman was busying himself binding Miss Storie's hands ? Miss Storie never explained this.......

regards,
James

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

I'm a great fan of a good western. I was unaware that the actual gunfight at the OK Corral lasted just a few seconds. I've seen both films you mention and enjoyed both immensely.
Recently I saw a fine western (from 1954) on Film4 called "The Raid" with Van Heflin. It was based on a true story from the American Civil War about a Confederate attack on a small town in Vermont called St Alban's. I mention this simply because the Murder Car passed through a town by the same name.

A good last paragraph from you. Just exactly where was the Enfield while the gunman was busying himself binding Miss Storie's hands ? Miss Storie never explained this.......

regards,
James

Hi James,

Yes you can’t beat a good western film. A few years ago the film industry said the western was dead but then along came films such as Tombstone, Wyatt Earp, Unforgiven, Dances with Wolves, The Quick and the Dead, Open Range and the remake of the 3.10 to Yuma. All big hits.

My own particular favourite western though has to be The Fastest Gun Alive with Glen Ford and Broderick Crawford a simply brilliant film with a fascinating ending. Second but a different type of western with a different theme; the very thought provoking and moving Soldier Blue.

Sorry about this post. Just had to say it.

Tony.

[Victor]

Is this is a serious post, Victor, or is it a case of tongue being firmly in cheek??

Hi PC49,

It was completely serious. I added the little imaginary scene as a homage to Tony.

True it relies on a bit of good fortune but it certainly isn't impossible.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Hi Tony,

No need to apologise for enjoying a real good western. I absolutely love them and along with a good suspense thriller (especially Alfie Hitchcock's masterpieces) are definitely my favourite genre of film.
I've seen dozens of great westerns, it's interesting to not that the previously mentioned Van Heflin was in two classic westerns, Shane and the original 3.10to Yuma.
My own personal favourite has always been the Gary Cooper classic High Noon.
I also love the 1946 John Ford classic "My darling Clementine" with Henry Fonda playing the part of Why Hit Earp.

(Just a welcome and temporary diversion from the topic at hand)


regards,
James

[Tony]

Is this is a serious post, Victor, or is it a case of tongue being firmly in cheek??

Hello PC49,

Vic has just replied to you and said his post was serious. I thought it was serious when I first read it.

But read it following on from the following:

From post 2445:

Put yourself in Hanratty’s shoes for a moment: you have been arrested for and charged with murder. They need to prove you guilty. You need not say nor do anything.
But you would know in 1961 if the jury believed the prosecution case and found you guilty you would probably be on the end of a rope. So you need to defend yourself but you are the type of character who leads a come day go day sort of existence. You don’t have a regular job so you can’t say you were at work or anything like that so you simply think: “Where the bloody hell was I on that Tuesday afternoon?”
Eventually you remember one thing, a tiny thing: somebody a stranger tried to help you out in the late afternoon by pointing you in the right direction of a road you were looking for in Liverpool. But it’s a bit of a long shot for it was only an old lady in a sweet shop but, well, that’s what happened.
“Look the only person that can vouch for me is an old lady in a sweet shop in Liverpool. I don’t know her name or the shop’s name or even exactly where it is now. I don't even know if she will recall such a minor incident but that’s the best I can do.”

I bet the defence looked to the heavens in desperation and Acott would have had a laugh with Oxford about it.
I bet nobody at the time thought they would come across Mrs Dinwoodie but they did. And what is more she confirmed exactly what he said. A sweet shop is a very busy place but in 1961 how many Londoners called in asking for directions? Not many I would have thought.
Acott, at the trial, accepted what Mrs Dinwoodie said to be true and he knew Hanratty was in London on the Monday so the incident must have been on Tuesday the afternoon of the murder. Acott, now a bit stuck, then said it was possible that another Londoner called at her shop asking for directions at the time Hanratty said he was there. Hmm good old Bob.


From post 2459:
At what point do you think Hanratty was offered this fake alibi and do we know how many of his Scouse fences had Cockney accents and looked just like him?

Tony.

PS.

This will get Vic going but I’m sorry Vic I’m off to Sheffield again on this cold night so no replies till the morn. By the way I’ll again keep a close eye on the Shivering Mountain that is Mam Tor. Any shivering will be reported to you again in the morn.

Tony

[PC49]

Hi PC49,

It was completely serious. I added the little imaginary scene as a homage to Tony.

True it relies on a bit of good fortune but it certainly isn't impossible.

KR,
Vic.

Well Vic, I am surprised. I would have thought it relies on one hell of a lot of good fortune, rather than merely a bit of good fortune??
And, if you don't mind my saying, it is surely well nigh impossible.
There would have been much more chance of a scouse doppelganger visiting a sweetshop in London, rather than the other way around!
Best regards.

[jimarilyn]

You going to watch Wednesday on a Tuesday Tony ? Good luck.

regards,
James

[Victor]

Well Vic, I am surprised. I would have thought it relies on one hell of a lot of good fortune, rather than merely a bit of good fortune??
And, if you don't mind my saying, it is surely well nigh impossible.
There would have been much more chance of a scouse doppelganger visiting a sweetshop in London, rather than the other way around!
Best regards.

Hi PC49,

Really? Hanratty, a known crook who spent large amounts of time in various jails building up an array of contacts. He admitted to knowing fences in London, Liverpool and Rhyl, amongst others. Quite a criminal network there for the ole "honour amongst thieves" to easily secure a simple alibi that has so much detail that I managed to sum it up in one sentence.

I don't doubt that you could more easily find a scouser in London than a cockney in Liverpool, but they're not that rare especially when you've got a network like Hanratty's.

KR,
Vic.

ps Have a great night Tony!