a6 murder

[P.L.A]

John Needham

Hi Folks

Took me a long time to find this. The report gives a somewhat different account of Hanratty's attitude at the supposed meeting than that given by Needham in the TV interview.

Must say, I can't believe that the civil police would have let a person on a capital charge out of their site, let alone their handcuffs.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2001/apr/05/guardianletters1

Peter

[P.L.A]

The eyes

Hi

I see that the issue of the colour of the gunman's eyes has surfaced again.

If there was really anything in it, why didn't Sherrard mention it even once in the defence case at Bedford or in his numerous interviews in the subsequent fortyodd years?


Peter.

[reg1965]

Hi

I see that the issue of the colour of the gunman's eyes has surfaced again.

If there was really anything in it, why didn't Sherrard mention it even once in the defence case at Bedford or in his numerous interviews in the subsequent fortyodd years?


Peter.

Hi Peter
I think that Mr Sherrard, like many others, was shocked by the amount of non-disclosure of evidence that was unearthed as part of the CCRC investigation that began in 1997. Some of this is detailed in Woffinden (both eds)
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi Reg,

I think we all agree that there are many problems with the original case evidence. We could disregard the gun evidence because it could have been planted. We could disregard Valerie's as unreliable. But if we are agreed that there is nothing - and I do mean nothing - to this day, to make a case against Alphon that would even get to court, I'm wondering where you can go, because there is nobody else to take Hanratty's place and someone was responsible and should have been taken out of society. I believe he must have been, one way or another. It doesn't work to say that Hanratty must still be presumed innocent in law until you find him guilty beyond your idea of reasonable doubt. He has already been found guilty in law. Your only option now is to find the evidence you need to prove someone else must have done it.

Why does Alphon have to be the replacement killer? It could have been any mature male of blood type O secretor.
We all know that he was found guilty and it was upheld in 2002. I was saying that on the evidence given I don't think that he was/is guilty.
I do not need to find the person responsible to prove Hanratty's innocence. Only the discrediting of the DNA analysis evidence and the prosecutions inability to refute the Liverpool alibi will do for me.

I keep coming back to this, but I don't believe the man who did that to VS and MG could have blended seamlessly back into society without committing any more offences of a similar nature. Neither was he likely to have stuck himself out there like a sore thumb in a glare of publicity and not come a cropper at some point. The man who committed that crime was not exactly brain of Britain, was he?

That's your opinion mate.

Unfortunately, evidence can be planted against a guilty man just as easily as it can against an innocent one. So disregarding it doesn't clear Hanratty, nor can it be used against Alphon. And if VS picked out two men who were nothing like each other physically, she can't be relied on to tell us that one of them resembled a third man. Once we have agreed to disregard her evidence against Hanratty, it also has to be disregarded concerning the man she thought looked like Alphon. We have no way of judging, without more evidence, whether her attacker looked - or sounded - like Hanratty or Alphon or someone else entirely. It's not even 50-50 because Alphon was there and escaped her gaze and was not asked to speak. If he had been, would she have recognised his voice or known instantly that it wasn't him?

You've totally lost me I'm afraid. I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Back to the DNA briefly, you wrote:

'It has been shown through the lifecycle of the tested evidence that real windows of opportunity for contamination exist, let alone the degree of degradation that may occurred over the last 40 years.'

But we know that JH's and VS's DNA (if not MG's) must have survived degradation for 40 years, unless you are suggesting it could have arrived on the hankie or knickers at some point after 1962. Surely that narrows your window of opportunity right down to a contamination event very close to the beginning of that lifecycle, the traces of which degraded slowly enough over the next four decades to oblige with JH's profile in time for the 2002 appeal - and no other potential rapist DNA detectable.

I am not going over old ground for the umpteenth time. You will have to do some research into DNA analysis techniques for yourself. Don't take my word for it and equally don't believe what you read in the papers or listen to on TV.

I'm afraid it's a stretch too far for me unless someone can come up with something tangible that can seriously undermine the results or put Alphon in the frame over Hanratty.

Thats your privilege.

Reg

[Graham]

Hi Caz,

Might it not change the way we look at potential motive if we knew that Hanratty had indeed forced himself on to France's barely legal daughter? As someone else said, when you've killed once it's supposed to be much easier to kill again. Would the same apply to rape? Hanratty was said to be highly sexed, and sex has always been motive enough for many a rape and murder, although there is of course many an exception too.

But we don't know that Hanratty forced himself on Carole France. He may well of done, but there is no direct evidence to suggest that he did. Highly sexed he may have been, but by his own admission he visited prostitutes on a regular basis (and one prostitute in particular, or so I recall). He had no previous record of sexual violence against women (mind, he had no previous record of violent crime of any sort).

Regarding Alphon’s claim that he forced the couple to couple, why on earth would Valerie have been too embarrassed to say so, when telling the police that the man with the gun had raped her after shooting Gregsten?

I somehow think, in retrospect, that had that happened, Valerie would have said so. She doesn't strike me as the kind of person to permit modesty to get in the way of a point she had to make. Maybe such a claim was entirely in Alphon's character, unless - as is more likely - he was just fantasising, egged on by Justice.

I keep coming back to this, but I don't believe the man who did that to VS and MG could have blended seamlessly back into society without committing any more offences of a similar nature

.

Is every single murderer known to criminal history a potential serial murderer? Don't think so.


Hi Reg,

No doubt in my mind, as I've said all along, that Hanratty should never have been convicted on the evidence presented at his trial. But he was, the jury believed the prosecution evidence, and we have to accept that.


Alphon was involved in the case via coincidence and nothing more, courtesy of the manager of The Alexandra Court Hotel and, later, Nudds. Oh, and we mustn't forget Jean Justice's role in all this - he seized hold of Alphon and basically put words into his mouth and £££'s into his pocket. Even when I was pretty much convinced of Hanratty's guilt I could never quite accept Alphon as the A6 killer - it just didn't add up. In the words of William Ewer, Alphon was as close as one can get to a 'raving lunatic', who allowed himself to become embroiled for profit.

So, if it wasn't Hanratty and it wasn't Alphon, then who was it? Here we are faced with a vacuum of massive proportion. On the one hand, it could have been anyone. On the other, as the police would have it, it was one of two people who stayed at The Vienna Hotel. One of them was absolved because he wasn't identified by the principle witness and because his alibi stood up.
The other was identified by the same witness, and neither of his alibis was sound enough to convince a jury.

Hanratty's Liverpool and Rhyl alibis fall down for the simple reason that there is no solid, concrete evidence that he was in either place at the crucial time. Maybe his defence was at fault for not establishing sufficient evidence, but I don't think they were. I think Hanratty himself was at fault for convolution, and perhaps his defence were somewhat naive in not pursuing the Liverpool Alibi harder. In my honest opinion, the Rhyl Alibi never did stand a cat's chance in hell of convincing anyone, let alone a British jury - to this day, there is no concrete evidence that he was in Rhyl at the crucial time. Maybe it was a case of too many witnesses, where just one or two with real evidence of his presence in Rhyl would have been enough; otherwise, it's just heresay.

Hanratty should have walked after his trial, no doubt in my mind about that. And had he done so, that would have been, so to speak, that. The police had nowhere else to go - they'd cleared Alphon, and there was no-one else in the frame, so far as we know. Had Hanratty been cleared, the A6 case would have gone down in history as one of the great Unsolved Murder Cases.
Only it didn't, and it wasn't.

Loving it!

Graham

[Tony]

Hi Caz,



But we don't know that Hanratty forced himself on Carole France. He may well of done, but there is no direct evidence to suggest that he did. Highly sexed he may have been, but by his own admission he visited prostitutes on a regular basis (and one prostitute in particular, or so I recall). He had no previous record of sexual violence against women (mind, he had no previous record of violent crime of any sort).



I somehow think, in retrospect, that had that happened, Valerie would have said so. She doesn't strike me as the kind of person to permit modesty to get in the way of a point she had to make. Maybe such a claim was entirely in Alphon's character, unless - as is more likely - he was just fantasising, egged on by Justice.


.

Is every single murderer known to criminal history a potential serial murderer? Don't think so.


Hi Reg,

No doubt in my mind, as I've said all along, that Hanratty should never have been convicted on the evidence presented at his trial. But he was, the jury believed the prosecution evidence, and we have to accept that.


Alphon was involved in the case via coincidence and nothing more, courtesy of the manager of The Alexandra Court Hotel and, later, Nudds. Oh, and we mustn't forget Jean Justice's role in all this - he seized hold of Alphon and basically put words into his mouth and £££'s into his pocket. Even when I was pretty much convinced of Hanratty's guilt I could never quite accept Alphon as the A6 killer - it just didn't add up. In the words of William Ewer, Alphon was as close as one can get to a 'raving lunatic', who allowed himself to become embroiled for profit.

So, if it wasn't Hanratty and it wasn't Alphon, then who was it? Here we are faced with a vacuum of massive proportion. On the one hand, it could have been anyone. On the other, as the police would have it, it was one of two people who stayed at The Vienna Hotel. One of them was absolved because he wasn't identified by the principle witness and because his alibi stood up.
The other was identified by the same witness, and neither of his alibis was sound enough to convince a jury.

Hanratty's Liverpool and Rhyl alibis fall down for the simple reason that there is no solid, concrete evidence that he was in either place at the crucial time. Maybe his defence was at fault for not establishing sufficient evidence, but I don't think they were. I think Hanratty himself was at fault for convolution, and perhaps his defence were somewhat naive in not pursuing the Liverpool Alibi harder. In my honest opinion, the Rhyl Alibi never did stand a cat's chance in hell of convincing anyone, let alone a British jury - to this day, there is no concrete evidence that he was in Rhyl at the crucial time. Maybe it was a case of too many witnesses, where just one or two with real evidence of his presence in Rhyl would have been enough; otherwise, it's just heresay.

Hanratty should have walked after his trial, no doubt in my mind about that. And had he done so, that would have been, so to speak, that. The police had nowhere else to go - they'd cleared Alphon, and there was no-one else in the frame, so far as we know. Had Hanratty been cleared, the A6 case would have gone down in history as one of the great Unsolved Murder Cases.
Only it didn't, and it wasn't.

Loving it!

Graham

A very good afternoon to you Graham,

Has anyone else had trouble accessing the thread today?

Can you remind me what Mr Alphon’s alibi was that ‘stood up’ please.

Other than that I thought your post 2300 was exceptional and I am getting convinced that you are crossing the divide as each day passes. Please let me know when you intend to fully commit to our side.

Have a nice day.

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

Afternoon Tony,

I too have had lots of problems trying to access the thread today ( a page kept coming up saying something to the effect that there's an error with the Database, never seen that before !).

I too would like to know what Alphon's alibi was, especially as his mother couldn't corroborate that she'd seen him on the evening of August 22nd.

I wonder what it was last night that Graham was loving ( the wine or the thread ?).

Wonder why number one poster Steve hasn't logged on for a full month now. Hope he's keeping well.


James

[Tony]

Bedtime with Basil (part 3)

Additional pillow talk with Basil and Mrs A.

This time it’s fast forward to 1971.

“Did you have a nice time on the golf course today, Basil?”

“Indeed I did love. I beat Oxo by two shots. That’s another fiver for the holiday fund. Actually my ball went into bunkers at the 12th an 17th but Oxo was quite a bit away from me so I threw them out onto the fairway without him knowing but keep that to yourself it never does you any good revealing too much to the other side you know.”

“Oh Basil, I forgot to tell you that young reporter Mr. Foot rang for you while you were out. I said he would be able to catch you tomorrow”

“What? I’ll tell you what I’m sick of all this if I answer the phone and it’s him I’ll tell him to get lost. He’s only gone and written a book about Jimmy Hanratty you know; and I’ll tell you something love me and Oxo don’t come over very well at all in it. I’ve told him before I don’t want to talk to him but he is a persistent bastard.”

“Basil! Language. Please. We’re in the marital bed.”

“Sorry love but he is such a bloody pest.”

“Well I think he’s a nice young man. What’s he done that’s upset you so much?”

“Well you remember that old murder case with Jimmy Hanratty don’t you?

“Only vaguely, Basil, but that was ages ago. Has something come out that shouldn’t have done?”

“Not really, Jimmy’s dead and buried thank God and Paul Foot can’t bring him back now can he?” Anyway it makes you wonder if it’s all been worth while doesn’t it. I thought we’d heard the last of it when that barrister bloke Blom-Cooper wrote a book about the case and he agreed that Jimmy was guilty but then that bloody nuisance Jean Justice goes and writes a book saying Jimmy didn’t do it and then that Lord Russell or whatever his name was writes another book saying Jimmy didn’t do it and now it’s the turn of this bloody left wing loony Foot. He’s been going on about it for a few years now in different rags you know love. And apparently Blom-Cooper has only gone and changed his mind after all this time.”

“But what are they all going on about that’s 4 books on just one case?”

“No five love Justice wrote another one in French. I’ve read the others but I’m not going to start French lessons at my age. And that idiot David Frost has had the case on his television show. And, what are they going on about? You may well ask. They are all trying to say Jimmy didn’t do it but it was Alphon all along.”

“Oh, I’d completely forgotten about him. You didn’t like him did you Basil?”

“No I bloody well didn’t and I like him even less now. He’s only going round saying he did it after all. Hey I’ll tell you what though Foot reckons he had five thousand quid paid into his bank account after the murder. He hadn’t got two ha’pennies to scratch his arse with when I knew him. It does make you wonder though doesn’t it? Five thousand quid; we’ve never even had anything like that have we love?”

“But Mr Alphon couldn’t have done it you said there were 12 points which ruled him out and he had an alibi and the young lady picked Jimmy Whatsit out didn’t she Bas?”

“Well yes she did love but she had two bloody goes you know and nearly messed it up on the second and as for the twelve points well there are another twelve that rule him in and I don’t really know what his alibi was.
Next thing you know they’ll be asking questions in Parliament about all this. Well I’ve decided to keep my mouth well and truly shut and I’ve told Oxo if he knows what’s good for him that he should do the same.”

“You’ll not get into trouble will you Basil?”

“Not bloody likely love. I think I’ve covered our tracks. I’ve made damn sure that anything a bit iffy, and there is quite a bit, is locked away for the next fifty years. Surely to God it will all be forgotten about by then and anyway we won’t be around when anything does hit the fan love.”

“No dear.”

“Sweet dreams love. Mind the bugs don’t bite”

“Night night Basil”

“Bloody Alphon, bloody Foot, bloody A6, bloody hell.”


Tony.

[jimarilyn]

Additional pillow talk with Basil and Mrs A.

This time it’s fast forward to 1971.

“Did you have a nice time on the golf course today, Basil?”

“Indeed I did love. I beat Oxo by two shots. That’s another fiver for the holiday fund. Actually my ball went into bunkers at the 12th an 17th but Oxo was quite a bit away from me so I threw them out onto the fairway without him knowing but keep that to yourself it never does you any good revealing too much to the other side you know.”

“Oh Basil, I forgot to tell you that young reporter Mr. Foot rang for you while you were out. I said he would be able to catch you tomorrow”

“What? I’ll tell you what I’m sick of all this if I answer the phone and it’s him I’ll tell him to get lost. He’s only gone and written a book about Jimmy Hanratty you know; and I’ll tell you something love me and Oxo don’t come over very well at all in it. I’ve told him before I don’t want to talk to him but he is a persistent bastard.”

“Basil! Language. Please. We’re in the marital bed.”

“Sorry love but he is such a bloody pest.”

“Well I think he’s a nice young man. What’s he done that’s upset you so much?”

“Well you remember that old murder case with Jimmy Hanratty don’t you?

“Only vaguely, Basil, but that was ages ago. Has something come out that shouldn’t have done?”

“Not really, Jimmy’s dead and buried thank God and Paul Foot can’t bring him back now can he?” Anyway it makes you wonder if it’s all been worth while doesn’t it. I thought we’d heard the last of it when that barrister bloke Blom-Cooper wrote a book about the case and he agreed that Jimmy was guilty but then that bloody nuisance Jean Justice goes and writes a book saying Jimmy didn’t do it and then that Lord Russell or whatever his name was writes another book saying Jimmy didn’t do it and now it’s the turn of this bloody left wing loony Foot. He’s been going on about it for a few years now in different rags you know love. And apparently Blom-Cooper has only gone and changed his mind after all this time.”

“But what are they all going on about that’s 4 books on just one case?”

“No five love Justice wrote another one in French. I’ve read the others but I’m not going to start French lessons at my age. And that idiot David Frost has had the case on his television show. And, what are they going on about? You may well ask. They are all trying to say Jimmy didn’t do it but it was Alphon all along.”

“Oh, I’d completely forgotten about him. You didn’t like him did you Basil?”

“No I bloody well didn’t and I like him even less now. He’s only going round saying he did it after all. Hey I’ll tell you what though Foot reckons he had five thousand quid paid into his bank account after the murder. He hadn’t got two ha’pennies to scratch his arse with when I knew him. It does make you wonder though doesn’t it? Five thousand quid; we’ve never even had anything like that have we love?”

“But Mr Alphon couldn’t have done it you said there were 12 points which ruled him out and he had an alibi and the young lady picked Jimmy Whatsit out didn’t she Bas?”

“Well yes she did love but she had two bloody goes you know and nearly messed it up on the second and as for the twelve points well there are another twelve that rule him in and I don’t really know what his alibi was.
Next thing you know they’ll be asking questions in Parliament about all this. Well I’ve decided to keep my mouth well and truly shut and I’ve told Oxo if he knows what’s good for him that he should do the same.”

“You’ll not get into trouble will you Basil?”

“Not bloody likely love. I think I’ve covered our tracks. I’ve made damn sure that anything a bit iffy, and there is quite a bit, is locked away for the next fifty years. Surely to God it will all be forgotten about by then and anyway we won’t be around when anything does hit the fan love.”

“No dear.”

“Sweet dreams love. Mind the bugs don’t bite”

“Night night Basil”

“Bloody Alphon, bloody Foot, bloody A6, bloody hell.”


Tony.

Words fail me Tony. Were you perchance a fly on that bedroom wall ? Before anyone (possibly the owner of a nasal spray ?) accuses me of more "sycophantic excrement" , I have to say that the above post is possibly the best post that's appeared on this thread. Funny, insightful, incisive and not a million miles from the truth.

regards,

James

[simon]

Graham -
"He may well OF done " ??
Shame on you!

Regards,
Simon

[jimarilyn]

Graham -
"He may well OF done " ??
Shame on you!

Regards,
Simon

Well spotted Simon. Perhaps he was "writing while under the influence".

regards,

James

[Graham]

Graham -
"He may well OF done " ??
Shame on you!

Regards,
Simon

Simon, me old mate, and James, me old mucker,

I saw that terrible and unforgiveable error, born of having to read business letters and reports written by the grammatically-challenged, too late to correct it. I hang my head in shame. It might also have been down to the excellent bottle of Chilean Merlot I was imbibing when I wrote that post. A million apologies.

Cheers,

Graham

PS: I've got another bottle of the same as I write this...!

PPS: I'm still a Jimdiditite.

[Graham]

Hi all.

With reference to Alphon's alibis, I submit that the Juliana Galves statement regarding Alphon's arrival at, and departure from, the Vienna, was pretty solid and substantial enough to convince a jury, had it ever come to that.

Regarding Alphon's mother, she actually said that she was unsure when her son last visited her home, not when she last saw him. As far as I'm aware she never contradicted her statement that she met him on the evening of the 22nd of August, on the corner near her house in Gleneagle Road, where she gave him money. She said that her son didn't like visiting her house because he didn't get on with his father.

I believe that even if Alphon had been picked out by Valerie Storie and sent to trial, his alibis could not have been rubbished by the prosecution. Let's face it, they are more solid that Hanratty's.

Acott & Co were under considerable pressure to nail someone for the A6 Murder, and Alphon must have seemed God-sent to them, all things considered.

Cheers,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

I saw that terrible and unforgiveable error, born of having to read business letters and reports written by the grammatically-challenged, too late to correct it. I hang my head in shame.

Hi Graham,

My maternal grandmother was definitely not one of the grammatically challenged. She was a very wise and intelligent lady who acquired her education by attending gran'ma school.

James

[Graham]

Hi Graham,

My maternal grandmother was definitely not one of the grammatically challenged. She was a very wise and intelligent lady who acquired her education by attending gran'ma school.

James

Nice one, James.

Yorz,

Graham