a6 murder

[Graham]

Is there any reason why the car couldn't have been stolen once it had been abandoned by Hanratty? I was thinking of blood, gore or bullet holes, or other evidence such as the mileage travelled.

Hi Victor,

Having never seen a photo of the inside of the car, I repeat my question and ask: does one exist? Looking at the photos of the car as it was found, no bullet-holes are visible (which is not to say that they didn't exist).

Re: bullet-holes, this was discussed on the old threads, and it was suggested (by Stan Reid) that the driver's window was open at the time of the shooting, and that the bullets passed through it and into the Bedfordshire countryside. Ref: Keith Simpson's statement that Gregsten was shot 'through and through'.

I have this feeling that Hanratty, after leaving the lay-by, was so traumatised by what he had done that he couldn't think straight, let alone drive properly, for a time, and did indeed park up somewhere for a while to try to get his mind sorted. It's also struck me that, pre-Motorway days, a route from London to Liverpool may well have included a large part of the A6 via Derby and southern Manchester, and Liverpool seems to have been a fairly common destination for him. Which suggests that the route he used from Dorney to Deadman's Hill wasn't necessarily chosen at random. Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers,

Graham

[Tony]

Hi JM,

The photo of Alphon in your last post is, I'd say, a police mug-shot. I still can't see much resemblance between that, and the Photofit next to it. Even less can I see a resemblance between it and the Sidney Tafler look-alike described by more than one person. Or between it and the two photos of Alphon between Pages 144 and 145 of Foot's book. All it takes is a change of hair-style, even maybe a change of expression. Unlike certain of the witnesses at the time, we have the benefit of hindsight and are able to make a direct comparison between the Photofits and the actual photographs.

Very, very subjective.

Cheers,

Graham

Good morning to you Graham,

Well I think you’re not for turning on the identikit pictures are you?

In support of your argument I still have difficulty seeing a difference in Ant and Dec.

Have a nice weekend.

Tony.

[PUPPYKINS]

Hi folks! Although I've nothing to contribute, I'd just like to say that this is a terrific forum. I've been interested in the A6 case for years and it has to be the most fascinating murder mystery [I'm still not certain Hanratty was actually guilty] ever...apart from the Ripper murders of course!
Please keep posting. I'm completely hooked.
Best wishes
Ian Strange

[Tony]

Hi folks! Although I've nothing to contribute, I'd just like to say that this is a terrific forum. I've been interested in the A6 case for years and it has to be the most fascinating murder mystery [I'm still not certain Hanratty was actually guilty] ever...apart from the Ripper murders of course!
Please keep posting. I'm completely hooked.
Best wishes
Ian Strange

Hello there Puppykins (?)

Puppykins eh? Strange! Well it must be me but then again we have arrived in the 21st Century; but if I went out next Thursday and said: “hey lads call me Puppykins” I think I’d be sitting in the car park for the rest of the evening.

A very warm welcome to you nonetheless Mr Puppykins.

I see you are of the opinion that you are still not sure if Hanratty was guilty; well stick with us pal, we the Hanratty didn’t do it brigade, are certainly in the minority on here so we need all the help we can get.

Your comments would be most welcome whichever side you come down on.

Tony.

[Tony]

Goodnight Basil.

Hello everyone,

Now I know the cops have a difficult time of it on occasions but the job does have its compensations and a murder investigation must be trying and even more so in the 1960’s

We obviously don’t know how Mr Acott perceived James Hanratty at the time or indeed how he perceived Peter Alphon. I assume he, at one time, thought Alphon was his man, because he arrested him and put him on an ID parade and if he had been picked out he would have been charged and it would then have been Mr Acott’s job to provide enough evidence to the prosecution to get Alphon convicted and ultimately executed. (Not a nice job was it)
But she did not pick out Alphon she did pick out Hanratty; although it is very debatable if the second Identification Parade was fair.
However, then Mr Acott is then faced with the same problem as he would have been with Alphon: i.e., providing the prosecution with enough evidence to convince a jury of Hanratty’s guilt thus leading to his eventual execution.

I wonder if he discussed the case in bed at night after each day with Mrs Acott, assuming he was married.

“You know my dear I have the car’s mileage log book and the car somehow covered 200 miles that night and these 2 witnesses I’ve got who identified Jimmy couldn’t have seen him because the car wasn’t there at the time they said they had seen it. Hope the defence don’t find out. And I’ll tell you something else I said I could rule out Alphon because he wasn’t called Jim and now today in court I’ve slipped up and told that bloody Sherrard that Valerie didn’t think the gunman was called Jim anyway and neither did I. I’ve also slipped up and said I ruled out him out because he was well spoken and I’ve only gone and blurted it out that Hanratty was quite well spoken. And you know how on the ID parade I arranged it so that she asked the men to speak and Hanratty says ‘fink’ and ‘fings’ and I told the court that Alphon doesn’t say those words like that? Well he does sometimes you know. Both me and Oxo have heard him. He’s a clever bugger that Alphon you know. And try as I might I can not find out where Jimmy was on the 23rd and 24th of August, he could have been in Rhyl for all I know.
I really don’t know how I sleep at nights.”

“Ooh you are awful Basil, but I do like you.”

“Goodnight dear”


Tony.

[PUPPYKINS]

Hello there Puppykins (?)

Puppykins eh? Strange! Well it must be me but then again we have arrived in the 21st Century; but if I went out next Thursday and said: “hey lads call me Puppykins” I think I’d be sitting in the car park for the rest of the evening.

A very warm welcome to you nonetheless Mr Puppykins.

I see you are of the opinion that you are still not sure if Hanratty was guilty; well stick with us pal, we the Hanratty didn’t do it brigade, are certainly in the minority on here so we need all the help we can get.

Your comments would be most welcome whichever side you come down on.

Tony.

Thanks Tony. Your comments had me rolling around on the floor!

[Tony]

Hi folks! Although I've nothing to contribute, I'd just like to say that this is a terrific forum. I've been interested in the A6 case for years and it has to be the most fascinating murder mystery [I'm still not certain Hanratty was actually guilty] ever...apart from the Ripper murders of course!
Please keep posting. I'm completely hooked.
Best wishes
Ian Strange

Good evening to You Alan,

Picture the scene if you can; nearly nightfall and there’s a tap at the window. Oh my God it’s a gunman.
He says let me in. He climbs into the back seat the gun is sticking in the back of their heads.
“What shall we call you?”

“Call me Puppykins”

Next day at the cop shop: “Oxo turn the internet on old lad. Google Pupykins. Anything show up?”
“I think we’ve got him Chief Inspector”



I know I should get out more.

Tony

[PUPPYKINS]

Good evening to You Alan,

Picture the scene if you can; nearly nightfall and there’s a tap at the window. Oh my God it’s a gunman.
He says let me in. He climbs into the back seat the gun is sticking in the back of their heads.
“What shall we call you?”

“Call me Puppykins”

Next day at the cop shop: “Oxo turn the internet on old lad. Google Pupykins. Anything show up?”
“I think we’ve got him Chief Inspector”

I know I should get out more.

Tony

Evening Tony. You're an absolute riot!
Ian
PS I think I'll change my username to something a touch more macho! Lol

[jimarilyn]

And you know how on the ID parade I arranged it so that she asked the men to speak and Hanratty says ‘fink’ and ‘fings’ and I told the court that Alphon doesn’t say those words like that? Well he does sometimes you know. Both me and Oxo have heard him. He’s a clever bugger that Alphon you know. And try as I might I can not find out where Jimmy was on the 23rd and 24th of August, he could have been in Rhyl for all I know.
I really don’t know how I sleep at nights.”

Hi Tony,

Great post !

Jean Justice, his brother Frank, and Jeremy Fox all witnessed at first hand how Peter Alphon would say things like "fink "and "fings" whenever he got all agitated and excited. He was (and probably still is) a very clever and manipulative man, he toyed with and ran rings around Basil during his interrogation.

His five and a half hour "cat and mouse" kidnap of Mike Gregsten and Valerie Storie gave him ample time and opportunity to lapse into his native cockney. By his own admission there was a lot of interactive talk between the three of them in that car that night but we have only heard snippets of it. I'd love to know (in common with many other people) what the other 80 to 90 % of that conversation consisted of.


regards,

James

[Graham]

Jean Justice, his brother Frank, and Jeremy Fox all witnessed at first hand how Peter Alphon would say things like "fink "and "fings" whenever he got all agitated and excited.

Or so they said.

The film of the so-called Paris Press Conference (where he ate the interviewer for breakfast) comes across as Alphon speaking with an easy, flowing, quite educated accent, nuffink at all like the Cockney Hanratty was said to speak.

Anyway, he wasn't a cockney at all. He was born in Croydon, Surrey, in 1930 and was evacuated to Horsham during the war. The press said he 'was well-spoken and speaks like a Londoner but in a quiet voice'. Doesn't sound like yer average Cockney to me.

I would also remind you that by his own admission Alphon was scared stiff prior to turning up at midnight at Scotland Yard for his interview with Acott - never mind running rings around the detective. Clever and manipulative he certainly was, but he also came very close to being nicked for a murder he didn't do - only once he was cleared of it did he really go to town.

Cheers,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Jean Justice, his brother Frank, and Jeremy Fox all witnessed at first hand how Peter Alphon would say things like "fink "and "fings" whenever he got all agitated and excited.

Or so they said.

Valerie Storie claimed originally the killer was about 30 years old with dark brown, slicked back hair and hazel coloured eyes. She also remarked that "Jim" obviously was not the killer's real name. She also stated that her memory of this man's face was fading fast....

Or so she said.


regards,

James

[Tony]

Jean Justice, his brother Frank, and Jeremy Fox all witnessed at first hand how Peter Alphon would say things like "fink "and "fings" whenever he got all agitated and excited.

Or so they said.

The film of the so-called Paris Press Conference (where he ate the interviewer for breakfast) comes across as Alphon speaking with an easy, flowing, quite educated accent, nuffink at all like the Cockney Hanratty was said to speak.

Anyway, he wasn't a cockney at all. He was born in Croydon, Surrey, in 1930 and was evacuated to Horsham during the war. The press said he 'was well-spoken and speaks like a Londoner but in a quiet voice'. Doesn't sound like yer average Cockney to me.

I would also remind you that by his own admission Alphon was scared stiff prior to turning up at midnight at Scotland Yard for his interview with Acott - never mind running rings around the detective. Clever and manipulative he certainly was, but he also came very close to being nicked for a murder he didn't do - only once he was cleared of it did he really go to town.

Cheers,

Graham

A very good morning to you Graham,

Interesting your second sentence: “Or so they say”. Now tell me please do I detect a little sarcasm here or are you in a roundabout way saying they are lying? (Hope that’s not tautological is it Vic?)

Compare your views to those expressed in Parliament and posted by James Dean on his 2220 post that tape recordings are available where Alphon does pronounce ‘fing’ and ‘fink’. Do you think the parliamentarians have got it wrong or are the tapes fakes?

Here is a snippet of Sherrard’s cross-examination of Acott:

Q I want to deal with a number of matters about identity as a whole in relation to this case. There has never been any description issued, has there, that the assailant in this case spoke with a Cocney accent?
A Not Cockney.

Q One of the answers you gave me in the Magistrates’ Court was this: “Alphon was also a well spoken man.”
A Yes.

Q Who else were you meaning to say was well spoken?
A The defendant.

Q You consider that he is well spoken?
A Yes. Even a Cockney can be well spoken

Apologies on Basil’s behalf to any Cockneys reading this who might be offended.

Tony.

[PUPPYKINS]

Hello Folks. I've just been watching a clip from the documentary "Hanratty- The Whole Truth." As a believer in Hanratty's innocence [well a 90% believer!], the comments made by the former RAF policeman John Needham have me puzzled. He claims that Hanratty confessed to him that he was indeed guilty of the A6 killing,but I don't see how this squares with Hanratty's later protestations of innocence [unless Mr Needham is a blatant liar].

Ian Strange [and no more Puppykins jokes please!]

[Tony]

Hello Folks. I've just been watching a clip from the documentary "Hanratty- The Whole Truth." As a believer in Hanratty's innocence [well a 90% believer!], the comments made by the former RAF policeman John Needham have me puzzled. He claims that Hanratty confessed to him that he was indeed guilty of the A6 killing,but I don't see how this squares with Hanratty's later protestations of innocence [unless Mr Needham is a blatant liar].

Ian Strange [and no more Puppykins jokes please!]

Good afternoon, just, to you Ian,

I promise.

What’s this about Hanratty confessing to an RAF policeman?

More please.

Tony

[PUPPYKINS]

Good afternoon, just, to you Ian,

I promise.

What’s this about Hanratty confessing to an RAF policeman?

More please.

Tony

Afternoon ,Tony. This was on the documentary "Hanratty-The Whole Truth," shown in 2002 after the results of the DNA tests were made public.