a6 murder

[Tony]

Hi Caz and Tony and everyone,

I'll post here a quote taken from a debate in the commons re the Hanratty trial. There is much more than this that I could post but this part of the debate references the identification. It makes for interesting speculation as to what the turn of events would have been had Alphon been picked out by Miss Storie. Had she picked out Alphon, I am sure that Miss Storie would have been unshakeable in her belief that she had picked the right man. I'm not making any criticism of Valerie Storie. It was a horrific event and she was a young girl of 22 who must have been under a great deal of pressure to identify a suspect. The first identification parade only lasted 5 minutes and it took place despite her doctors advising that she was too ill at the time. As we know, no-one was asked to speak and it was the manner of his speech that convinced Miss Storie, at the second identification parade, that Hanratty was the man who was responsible for the crime against her and Michael Gregsten.

Does anyone think that Alphon may have been singled out at the first identification if he had been asked to speak? Read this extract and decide for yourself. I'm sure you can guess who Mr X is! ...



The identification was possibly the most crucial evidence in the trial of James Hanratty.

Any comments?

Regards
James

Good morning James Dean,

You say there were three identifications of Hanratty but two of these were from the witnesses in Redbridge early in the morning.
Basil Acott knew of the car’s mileage log and the fact that 200 miles had been put on the clock so it is doubtful if the car could have been anywhere near Avondale Crescent at the time it was supposed to have been seen.
Naughty old Basil forgot to tell the defence this tit-bit of information and let the jury think that Hanratty had indeed been seen driving the murder car. In fact I think it was another 40 years before the police let this particular cat out of the bag.
I would imagine though that the jury thought this was very significant evidence wouldn’t you have done James.
Anybody know what’s happened to Reg?

Tony.

[JamesDean]

Good morning James Dean,

You say there were three identifications of Hanratty but two of these were from the witnesses in Redbridge early in the morning.
Basil Acott knew of the car’s mileage log and the fact that 200 miles had been put on the clock so it is doubtful if the car could have been anywhere near Avondale Crescent at the time it was supposed to have been seen.
Naughty old Basil forgot to tell the defence this tit-bit of information and let the jury think that Hanratty had indeed been seen driving the murder car. In fact I think it was another 40 years before the police let this particular cat out of the bag.
I would imagine though that the jury thought this was very significant evidence wouldn’t you have done James.
Anybody know what’s happened to Reg?

Tony.

Hi Tony

I agree that the supposed sightings of Hanratty in Redbridge can almost certainly be discounted as having any value so the only identification of any note in the case for the prosecution is the one provided by Valerie Storie.

No I don't know where Reg is ... maybe on holiday or taking a university course in genetics!

Regards
James

[Tony]

Hi Tony

I agree that the supposed sightings of Hanratty in Redbridge can almost certainly be discounted as having any value so the only identification of any note in the case for the prosecution is the one provided by Valerie Storie.

No I don't know where Reg is ... maybe on holiday or taking a university course in genetics!

Regards
James

Hi James,

I suspect you are nearer the mark with your second guess!

Coincidentally we have not heard from him since Hull turned the Gunners over. Hope he’s not done anything silly.

Tony.

[JIMBOW]

Dear Jim,

I agree with your first paragraph whole heartedly. To push it a bit further JH may have compromised France's daughter against her will. She may have told her parents leaving France to pursue some sort of revenge including, possibly, the planting of the cartridge cases.

Alan

Yes, I quite agree, Alan. I don't think it too much of a stretch at all to suspect that Hanratty may indeed have forced his attentions on Carole. A 16-year-old girl and an 'experienced' 25-year-old man who frequented some of the seedier parts of London (Soho etc.). Speaks for itself, I would have thought.

Regards,
Jim

[reg1965]

Hi James,

I suspect you are nearer the mark with your second guess!

Coincidentally we have not heard from him since Hull turned the Gunners over. Hope he’s not done anything silly.

Tony.

Hi Tony/James
It is most heartwarming to feel that I may be being missed. Where are the tissues.
Yes much closer, I'm actullly preparing a proposal for a doctoral thesis entitled 'Forensic DNA analysis and its place in the criminal justice system'. I will have to wait a while to see if it is acceptable and can be supervised as a joint departmental project.

Yes I have done something silly. I joined the Phil Brown fan club!! A very talented young manager no doubt about it. Pity about Porto's manager though! Look out the Black Cats.

Regards
Reg

[reg1965]

...I agree that the supposed sightings of Hanratty in Redbridge can almost certainly be discounted as having any value so the only identification of any note in the case for the prosecution is the one provided by Valerie Storie....

James & Tony
This is without taking into account the non-disclosed statement of Charles Drayton, a milkman, who was almost run down by the car at 5:25am near Bedford. His statement includes the correct licence plate number, one passenger and erratic crazy driving.
Where had the car been for nearly 2 hours since the murder? Driven on a random route or parked up so the gunman could have a 'kip' or what?
I would like to know what the men who Edward Blackhall picked out looked like though even so! His identification I believe was incorporated into a composite photofit that was released alongside Valeries'. What would the photofit have looked like if Blackhall had been the sole input into it? The real gunman?
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi all
Here are a couple of paragraphs from the UK Skeptics site raison d'etre.

UK Skeptics can be found @:

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/index.php

The burden of proof.

The burden of proof is the concept that it is up to those making a claim to prove it, or provide good supporting evidence for it, rather than for others to disprove it. This is the same concept as how a court of law operates. It is up to the prosecution to prove that the accused is guilty; it's not up to the defence to prove innocence.

This is the approach to claims that skeptics take. A claim presented will be doubted (presumed unproved) until the evidence in support of it can be examined. If the evidence supports the claim, either completely or beyond reasonable doubt, the claim will be accepted; otherwise it will be rejected unless or until further evidence is presented.

What is evidence?

When talking about evidence, skeptics are referring to tangible or empirical evidence. That is, evidence that can be inspected or examined by third parties. It is the quality, or robustness, of supporting evidence that determines whether a claim is accepted or rejected.

It is because of the importance of the high quality of evidence required to support claims that one of the most popular forms of general evidence, personal testimony (or anecdote), is not accepted as being satisfactory to support a claim. Psychologists have identified many cognitive errors (of reasoning, perception, memory, etc.) that we all possess which means that we can form many incorrect conclusions about things no matter how sincerely we may believe them.

Looking at the evidence in Hanratty, that leaves out ALL witnesses (for and against). Also the forensic evidence does not pass this test either. No forensic evidence was ever originally presented against Hanratty. The DNA evidence used in the appeal in 2002 has now been discredited as not being robust for purpose. No third party has validated it.

Not Guilty

Reg (juror # 11)

[jimarilyn]

Where had the car been for nearly 2 hours since the murder? Driven on a random route or parked up so the gunman could have a 'kip' or what?
I would like to know what the men who Edward Blackhall picked out looked like though even so! His identification I believe was incorporated into a composite photofit that was released alongside Valeries'. What would the photofit have looked like if Blackhall had been the sole input into it? The real gunman?
Reg

Hi Reg,

Maybe the learner driver was giving himself a 2 hour driving lesson, knowing that that area in the middle of the night would be very quiet.

Re. that composite photofit made up by four (?) different witnesses, is it just me or does that rare photo of Alphon (on page 54 of Louis Blom-Cooper's 1963 book) actually look remarkably like this composite photofit ?

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this.

James

[Tony]

Hi Reg,

Maybe the learner driver was giving himself a 2 hour driving lesson, knowing that that area in the middle of the night would be very quiet.

Re. that composite photofit made up by four (?) different witnesses, is it just me or does that rare photo of Alphon (on page 54 of Louis Blom-Cooper's 1963 book) actually look remarkably like this composite photofit ?

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this.

James

A very good afternoon to you Jimarilyn,

Hang on a minute here pal are you seriously asking people on here to agree with the likes of you and me that there is a similarity between the second identikit picture and Blom-Cooper’s photo of Alphon.

Good grief man Graham can’t see the resemblance between Valerie’s identikit and the traditional photo of Alphon and they look like two peas in a pod.

Seriously though do you or does anyone have any information about Paul Foot’s meeting with Janet Gregston shortly before she died which was apparently following Alphon’s contact with her to discuss the case. Apparently according to the recent information given on here Foot had a further meeting with Alphon.
I assume this must have taken place in the late 90’s but I can not find anything on it.

Tony

[jimarilyn]

A very good afternoon to you Jimarilyn,

Hang on a minute here pal are you seriously asking people on here to agree with the likes of you and me that there is a similarity between the second identikit picture and Blom-Cooper’s photo of Alphon.

Good grief man Graham can’t see the resemblance between Valerie’s identikit and the traditional photo of Alphon and they look like two peas in a pod.

Seriously though do you or does anyone have any information about Paul Foot’s meeting with Janet Gregston shortly before she died which was apparently following Alphon’s contact with her to discuss the case. Apparently according to the recent information given on here Foot had a further meeting with Alphon.
I assume this must have taken place in the late 90’s but I can not find anything on it.

Tony

Good afternoon to you also Tony,

Personally speaking I can't see any resemblance ( fingers tightly crossed ) between the photokit and Blom-Cooper's photo of Alphon.

Sorry Tony, I haven't any info whatsoever about this meeting between Paul Foot and Janet Gregsten. I've googled and googled but nothing comes up.

Did Paul Foot definitely meet Janet Gregsten shortly before her death ?

In the 1988 postscript to his book Paul Foot states there had been nothing in the previous 16/17 years from the Gregsten family and almost nothing from Alphon. Bob Woffinden said there was some renewed contact with Alphon in the early to mid 1990's through the intermediary services of Jeremy Fox, when Alphon made some "fresh confessions" to the murder.


James

[Victor]

Hi Reg,

Maybe the learner driver was giving himself a 2 hour driving lesson, knowing that that area in the middle of the night would be very quiet.

Hi James et al,

Is there any reason why the car couldn't have been stolen once it had been abandoned by Hanratty? I was thinking of blood, gore or bullet holes, or other evidence such as the mileage travelled.

And what about a "Pulp Fiction"-style clean up job? Minus the crushing of course.

Re. that composite photofit made up by four (?) different witnesses, is it just me or does that rare photo of Alphon (on page 54 of Louis Blom-Cooper's 1963 book) actually look remarkably like this composite photofit ?

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this.

James

I do agree that those images you posted are similar, but that only ties to the first identity parade where VS picked out someone "who looked similar to PLA" but not PLA himself.

KR,
Vic.

[Tony]

Tautology.

Well hello Vic,

I promised to report back to you this morning after my usual Thursday night out with the lads.
Still not quite sure of the word or indeed its meaning I set off to the pub. It’s about 5 miles away and my well trained wife takes me and collects me at 11.30 pm so no breathalyser worries.
During the brief journey I kept rehearsing the new word in the car and by the time I got out I think the wife thought I had gone completely barmy.
Armed with this new word I thought I’d go for it from the off, so to say.
“A pint of mixed please, Nigel”. That’s the landlord’s name and apart from the name he’s not a bad stick really. “I’ll have it with half a bitter and half a mild or maybe I’ll go for half a mild with half a bitter if that’s not tautological”
“What are you on about? You always drink bitter.”

So no joy with the opening attempt but then again Nigel’s not as smart as some of my mates.

We are in a quiz league (I know sad isn’t it) and last night we were at home so we all went into the quiz room and I mentioned that I might be going to Torpenhow Hill for the weekend. The ‘Eggheads’ asked if it was in The Lake District and one said it was in Scotland. I said: “It doesn’t matter where it is; it’s a Tautology.”
“Ah an ancient burial ground,” came the immediate response.
At this point I decided to give up.
We lost the quiz match and are now bottom of the league.

Tony.

[Victor]

Hi Tony,

Your post made me smile, I don't blame you for giving up, I think I would to.

Anyway let them know it's near Carisle in Cumbria, and its main claim to fame is that its name is a tautology: "Tor", "pen", and "how" all mean "hill" in different languages; the first two are Brythonic and the last Anglo-Saxon. Therefore "Torpenhow Hill" means "Hillhillhill Hill". The theory is that successive residents took the previous residents' name for the hill and added their own word for hill.

Not quite a burial ground then.

[Graham]

Hi Tony,

Your post made me smile, I don't blame you for giving up, I think I would to.

Anyway let them know it's near Carisle in Cumbria, and its main claim to fame is that its name is a tautology: "Tor", "pen", and "how" all mean "hill" in different languages; the first two are Brythonic and the last Anglo-Saxon. Therefore "Torpenhow Hill" means "Hillhillhill Hill". The theory is that successive residents took the previous residents' name for the hill and added their own word for hill.

Not quite a burial ground then.

Victor,

Here's a good 'un. The town of Haltwhistle in Northumberland. Common rumour had it that the name came from the early days of the railways, when there was a small station, or 'halt', in the vicinity (there certainly is) and that the puffer-trains blew their whistle as they approached. However, it's now generally agreed that the name is a composite, from the French 'haut', meaning 'high', and the Anglo-Saxon 'twisla', meaning the conjunction of two streams. Which there is.

There's also an excellent pub in Haltwhistle called The Grey Bull - good for a b&b base if ever you want to explore the Roman Wall country. I've stayed there several times.

Cheers,

Graham

[Graham]

Hi JM,

The photo of Alphon in your last post is, I'd say, a police mug-shot. I still can't see much resemblance between that, and the Photofit next to it. Even less can I see a resemblance between it and the Sidney Tafler look-alike described by more than one person. Or between it and the two photos of Alphon between Pages 144 and 145 of Foot's book. All it takes is a change of hair-style, even maybe a change of expression. Unlike certain of the witnesses at the time, we have the benefit of hindsight and are able to make a direct comparison between the Photofits and the actual photographs.

Very, very subjective.

Cheers,

Graham