a6 murder

[Stephen Thomas]

On the subject of police killers (people that murder a man in blue, not the other way round you understand) and miscarriages of justice – we are constantly reminded of Derek Bentley. Why does no one ever cite Ronald Marwood? I can’t for the life of me see how a jury convicted on the evidence presented. No wonder the other inmates almost tore the prison to pieces on the eve of his execution.

Peter

Thanks Peter

I'd forgotten that one. Here's an account of the case....

http://www.newstatesman.com/200604030051

[P.L.A]

Dixie

In a story that sags with coincidences, how certain is it that Dixie France’s suicide was due wholly or substantially to his involvement with the case?

After all, thousands of people take their own lives every year.

Were pressures he perceived in relation to the investigation the final straw that broke a back troubled over many other things?

The A6 pressure may have been insignificant if he hadn’t possibly had other issues eating away at him.

The decision to commit suicide was due to the sum of all his problems – we need the full picture in order to understand.

Peter

[reg1965]

Hi All
Coming back to Leonard Miller and what he is reported as saying in this report found at;

http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/bed-news/Hanratty-39abused-as-a-child39.283448.jp

Mr Miller obviously believed in Hanratty's innocence though and I quote

I used to believe he was innocent because all the books you read suggest that, but more evidence has emerged years later.

I take it that the previous books on the case included both Foot and Woffinden.

and further

He says new evidence brought to light by the Criminal Cases Review Commission has convinced him Hanratty was rightfully executed.

This could not have been the shocking amount of non-disclosure from the prosecution but the DNA evidence.

So what does he do...rubbish everything he believed in previously (along with personal attacks on Foot and Woffinden for good measure) for the sake of a science which he doesn't know the first iota about. Top quality journalism I don't think. I feel sorry for the students he taught at the (unnamed) Higher Education establisments he taught at. What a rotter.

Reg

[Limehouse]

In a story that sags with coincidences, how certain is it that Dixie France’s suicide was due wholly or substantially to his involvement with the case?

After all, thousands of people take their own lives every year.

Were pressures he perceived in relation to the investigation the final straw that broke a back troubled over many other things?

The A6 pressure may have been insignificant if he hadn’t possibly had other issues eating away at him.

The decision to commit suicide was due to the sum of all his problems – we need the full picture in order to understand.

Peter

Peter, I think this is a very valid point. I beleive that Dixie's family were not aware of the extent of his criminal activity and that his involvement with Hanratty and the subsequent trial brought this to light. Dixie must have found it difficult to face his family if, as a result of the murder, the extent of his criminality was revealed. Additionally, Dixie had introduced what appeared to be a very dangerous man into the family home. I believe it is possible that he felt thoroughly ashamed of himself for his past wrongdoing that was bringing shame on his family but also, possibly for his role in Hanratty's execution, even if helping to convict Hanratty seemed justified at the time.

[jimarilyn]

So what does he do...rubbish everything he believed in previously (along with personal attacks on Foot and Woffinden for good measure) for the sake of a science which he doesn't know the first iota about. Top quality journalism I don't think. I feel sorry for the students he taught at the (unnamed) Higher Education establisments he taught at. What a rotter.

Hi Reg,

You say everything that needs to be said about the very fickle Mr. Miller. I couldn't agree with you more.

regards,

James

[jimarilyn]

In a story that sags with coincidences, how certain is it that Dixie France’s suicide was due wholly or substantially to his involvement with the case?

After all, thousands of people take their own lives every year.

Were pressures he perceived in relation to the investigation the final straw that broke a back troubled over many other things?

The A6 pressure may have been insignificant if he hadn’t possibly had other issues eating away at him.

The decision to commit suicide was due to the sum of all his problems – we need the full picture in order to understand.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Maybe the timing of his suicide was very significant, coming as it did just a couple of days after Hanratty's appeal was turned down. Perhaps France was fervently hoping and praying that Hanratty would win his appeal. Speaking purely for myself I believe he couldn't live with the guilt that he was instrumental in events that would eventually lead to Hanratty's execution.

As Simon very rightly points out, why (if he loved his family so much) would he then remove himself permanently from their lives ?

James.

[P.L.A]

Our Dixie

Hi Limehouse

Yes, I have often wondered how the exposure of the real Dixie to his eldest daughter in particular affected his mind and self esteem. Jim’s point about the timing of his suicide is interesting. But as I said, taking his own life was the result of the sum of his problems – the final straw may not have been the most significant.

Peter

[Victor]

So what does he do...rubbish everything he believed in previously (along with personal attacks on Foot and Woffinden for good measure) for the sake of a science which he doesn't know the first iota about. Top quality journalism I don't think. I feel sorry for the students he taught at the (unnamed) Higher Education establisments he taught at. What a rotter.

Eh? You could also have said "He believes the evidence of legally-recognised experts in the field"

I believe even journalists rely on experts to interpret complex evidence.

[jimarilyn]

Hi Peter,

That 100 year (or is it 75 years) rule is in my opinion quite ridiculous. Who I wonder is it designed to protect and more pertinently from what ? Very few on this thread (or other interested parties elsewhere) will still be alive in 2036 or 2061.

The landlady of that bedsit where Charles France spent his last few hours said that there were about 100 loose pages of suicide notes strewn around the room. That must have consisted of a lot of writing. Unfortunately (unless the rule is changed) we will never know what was in 90 odd per cent of those notes, so we are left to speculate.

When they are eventually made public, who will be around to verify that they are indeed in the handwriting of Charles France ?

Far too much secrecy in this case for my liking.


regards

James

[simon]

Hi Jimarilyn,
That's the first I've heard of Dixie's "100 loose pages of suicide notes" and I think it's very interesting. Could just be ramblings of course... but could hold the key to the whole mystery. And we think the police still have this stuff in a drawer somewhere ?

Simon

[jimarilyn]

Hi Jimarilyn,
That's the first I've heard of Dixie's "100 loose pages of suicide notes" and I think it's very interesting. Could just be ramblings of course... but could hold the key to the whole mystery. And we think the police still have this stuff in a drawer somewhere ?

Simon

Hi Simon,

Yes, Bob Woffinden mentions this on page 293 of his book. I wonder if the landlady got to read any of these pages before the police came around to confiscate them ? With the benefit of hindsight it's a pity she didn't have the wits about her to keep half of them !

If only James Hanratty could come back for a day perhaps he could break into whatever drawer/locker/safe these potentially vital writings are hidden away in!

As you say they could hold the key to unlocking this great mystery.


regards,

James

[simon]

Hi James,
If it's in Woffenden then I must have read it and somehow forgotten! Actually I think it's time I re-read his book...(Paul Foot's I've been back to several times)....because it should be even more interesting now in the light of both Miller and the various facts and opinions on this forum.

Regards,
Simon

[reg1965]

Eh? You could also have said "He believes the evidence of legally-recognised experts in the field"

I believe even journalists rely on experts to interpret complex evidence.

Hi Vic
I would have done if I could have found an entry in 'Shadows of Deadman's Hill' that Mr Miller expanded his view as to why the DNA finally swayed him! I couldn't so I didn't..that was all. If anyone can find one I would be grateful if they could post a reference to it. Miller does not include an index so it is not an easy work to access. In that respect it is more like a work of fiction.
Yes, journalists do have to rely on experts to interpret complex evidence and the very good ones try to find a balance and some kind of counter argument. Mr Miller I'm afraid does not fit into the category of good journalist or for that matter author.

Where did you holiday by the way?

Regards
Reg

[Graham]

Hi Vic
I would have done if I could have found an entry in 'Shadows of Deadman's Hill' that Mr Miller expanded his view as to why the DNA finally swayed him! I couldn't so I didn't..that was all. If anyone can find one I would be grateful if they could post a reference to it. Miller does not include an index so it is not an easy work to access. In that respect it is more like a work of fiction.
Yes, journalists do have to rely on experts to interpret complex evidence and the very good ones try to find a balance and some kind of counter argument. Mr Miller I'm afraid does not fit into the category of good journalist or for that matter author.

Where did you holiday by the way?

Regards
Reg

Hello Reg,

Perhaps you, in turn, could point us members of the "Jim Did It" Party towards a definitive, legally- and scientifically-based statement from a recognised and qualified third party that the DNA testing apropos the A6 case is in some way deficient, flawed or simply wrong. You can post it here or on the separate A6 DNA Thread, wherever you like.

Leonard Miller, whoever he is (and I would dearly love to hear from him on this thread) is perfectly entitled to his opinion of the A6 Case in the same way as you are. It is NOT a question of being 'swayed' by the DNA evidence; it is a question of whether or not one accepts it. I do. You do not.

Graham

[reg1965]

Hello Reg,

Perhaps you, in turn, could point us members of the "Jim Did It" Party towards a definitive, legally- and scientifically-based statement from a recognised and qualified third party that the DNA testing apropos the A6 case is in some way deficient, flawed or simply wrong. You can post it here or on the separate A6 DNA Thread, wherever you like.

Leonard Miller, whoever he is (and I would dearly love to hear from him on this thread) is perfectly entitled to his opinion of the A6 Case in the same way as you are. It is NOT a question of being 'swayed' by the DNA evidence; it is a question of whether or not one accepts it. I do. You do not.

Graham

Hello Graham
Have I hit some kind of nerve with you? I didn't make any mention of camps demarked into Hanratty did it or otherwise in my post! I have a real and genuine reasonable doubt as to the validity of the DNA evidence as was presented to the Court of Appeal (2002). If you have read my post in the other place then you would know this.
Appeals come up with new evidence, maybe some time in the future a new appeal will be won by the Hanratty family and the doubts that some people now have with the DNA will be put forward. You seem to want to put this to bed now. I'm afraid that will never be the case...Not as long as I'm alive it certainly wont.

As with Miller, of course he is intitled to his opinions and I would love to meet him face to face to discuss the matter but that is not the point. You accept the DNA and I don't...so what. That is your opinion..what is that worth? What is mine worth? Everyone else will decide what they want to believe.

I am not sure what your point here is. If I have mistaken your point then please let me know.

Reg