a6 murder

[caz]

Good evening Reg1965,

I simply can’t believe that Sherrard did not ask to see Michael Clark. The ID parade took place when Alphon was in custody not Hanratty so no member of the defence team would have been present. So it must follow that the defence had really no idea what Michael Clark looked like. We only have Valerie’s offering, and that is that he was very similar to Alphon.
Why did not the judge ask to see the first man identified as MG’s murderer? If he looked a dead ringer for Hanratty presumably the prosecution would not have minded too much. They could have simply said to the judge: “Well here is Mr Clark, you can see how Miss Storie made an error he does look an awful lot like the defendant.”

But we know he did not look like the defendant he looked like Peter Alphon and how do we know? Valerie told us so.

It’s a mystery to me that he was not seen by the defence. If pushed Acott would have had to produce him. He could hardly have refused.

Tony.

Morning Tony,

My thoughts are along the same lines. If nobody else picked up on this potential trump card by insisting on seeing Clark then it's less surprising that it didn't occur to the hapless Hanratty himself.

Once again though, you are relying on Valerie's ability to tell you that Clark and Alphon looked alike, which doesn't sit well with her supposed inability to tell the difference between Clark and Hanratty. If she could think Hanratty looked like Clark on one occasion, and Clark looked like Alphon on another, we're all on a hiding to nothing if we claim Clark looked more like one than the other, aren't we?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I just wanted to add that the prosecution would have had good reason to play down Valerie's first error as much as possible, no matter what Clark looked like. If the defence had insisted, then yes, a dead ringer may not have done too much damage to her account. After all, Hanratty had not been there for her to pick out instead. But one little difference between Clark and Hanratty could have made all the difference in terms of Valerie's reliability as a witness. So I'm not sure you can read into any of this that the prosecution were hell bent on keeping Clark well out of the way because he and Hanratty were like chalk and cheese while Clark and Alphon were like two peas.

Love,

Caz
X

[jimarilyn]

But we know he did not look like the defendant he looked like Peter Alphon and how do we know? Valerie told us so.

Hi Tony,

This is an important point and cannot be underestimated. Who knows, perhaps she was in mortal fear of picking out Alphon on that parade.Alphon often comes across as a Svengali type character.

[reg1965]

At the first identity parade, Storie wasn’t aware that she was allowed to ask the people to speak. She only learnt that she could make this request after the event, but before the second parade.

In an interview with the Sunday Mail soon after the appeal, she said that when she was wheeled into the second parade, she recognised Hanratty straight away. She was determined not to mess this one up, so took as much time as she could to be totally certain.

She said something like “I looked at him, and he looked at me, and he knew that I knew who he was.”

Peter

Hi Peter
I am not sure that VS was even sure that she could ask the second parade members to speak as she asked if she could hear them speak!

Is the Sunday Mail you refer to the one published in Scotland or the Mail on Sunday published nationally. Which appeal are you referring to? 1962 or 2002?

It is my opinion that Valerie Storie was coached by DS Acott after the collapse of the case against the first suspect Alphon. Miss Storie has refused practically every request for an interview about the case ever since, except, it seems, in circumstances where she has control of the material.

Reg

[reg1965]

Good evening Reg1965,

I simply can’t believe that Sherrard did not ask to see Michael Clark. The ID parade took place when Alphon was in custody not Hanratty so no member of the defence team would have been present. So it must follow that the defence had really no idea what Michael Clark looked like. We only have Valerie’s offering, and that is that he was very similar to Alphon.
Why did not the judge ask to see the first man identified as MG’s murderer? If he looked a dead ringer for Hanratty presumably the prosecution would not have minded too much. They could have simply said to the judge: “Well here is Mr Clark, you can see how Miss Storie made an error he does look an awful lot like the defendant.”

But we know he did not look like the defendant he looked like Peter Alphon and how do we know? Valerie told us so.

It’s a mystery to me that he was not seen by the defence. If pushed Acott would have had to produce him. He could hardly have refused.

Tony.

Good evening Tony
Have you been on holiday? It seems that you have not posted for a while.

Mr Sherrard did ask DS Acott as to Mr Clarks whereabouts as I posted in #2095. And also as posted in the same we now have the non-disclosed notebook of DS Acott with the entry in the back of 'dark eyes'. So we know that Mr Clark certainly didn't have blue eyes as Dr Rennie so conveniently provided at the time.
DS Acott provided an 'off the top of his head description' (see post #2095, paragraph 140) so it was, I suppose, accepted. Giving DS Acott the best of all doubts Mr Clark was just dismissed without any further thought as Alphon was eliminated from the case!!
As has been put forward the prosecution would not have wanted Mr Clark appearing if he looked nothing like Hanratty. Make your own minds up about that one.
I am not sure how far into the trial that this evidence was given and therefore the level of confidence that the defence had with regard to acquittal.

Regards
Reg

[Tony]

Good evening Tony
Have you been on holiday? It seems that you have not posted for a while.

Mr Sherrard did ask DS Acott as to Mr Clarks whereabouts as I posted in #2095. And also as posted in the same we now have the non-disclosed notebook of DS Acott with the entry in the back of 'dark eyes'. So we know that Mr Clark certainly didn't have blue eyes as Dr Rennie so conveniently provided at the time.
DS Acott provided an 'off the top of his head description' (see post #2095, paragraph 140) so it was, I suppose, accepted. Giving DS Acott the best of all doubts Mr Clark was just dismissed without any further thought as Alphon was eliminated from the case!!
As has been put forward the prosecution would not have wanted Mr Clark appearing if he looked nothing like Hanratty. Make your own minds up about that one.
I am not sure how far into the trial that this evidence was given and therefore the level of confidence that the defence had with regard to acquittal.

Regards
Reg

Good morning to you Reg1965,

Yes my friend I have just returned from a brief holiday in Menorca. Hit a bit of a problem when we arrived and realised we had hired a car in Majorca and is it me getting bigger or are those plane seats getting smaller? Just about beginning to straighten up now. Luckily we didn’t travel with XL so all’s well that ends well.

Regarding the disappearance or non availability of Michael Clark you say that you are not sure when it came up during the trial and the defence were debating the possibility of acquittal: Valerie Storie was questioned about him early on and appeared to rather reluctantly agree that she had said he bore a fair resemblance to Alphon she also said, rather strangely if she knew what Alphon looked like and that Clark and Alphon were similar, that she could in no way describe Michael Clark.
Remember she saw Hanratty, on her own evidence for a few seconds in the lights of a passing car, but was certain of her ‘eventual’ identification. She viewed Michael Clark in perfect viewing conditions for a considerable time but when later asked if she could describe him could only answer: “No”.
She also said at the trial that at that time she thought Clark was the murderer and she knew at that time she had to be certain.
Perhaps the ID parades should have been carried out in semi-darkness.
As regards the defences thoughts of acquittal; I am sure they thought the jury would acquit. It was a surprise to a lot of people that the case even went to trial after committal proceedings, Sherrard was astonished at some of the prosecution tactics and let the jury know, the jury interrupted its deliberations to ask the judge to explain ‘reasonable doubt’ ( so it must have been having doubts), the judge told the jury that in this case all eleven must be certain Hanratty was guilty before bringing in a guilty verdict, the betting outside the court was 20-1 against Hanratty being found guilty and when he was even the judge appeared shocked.

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

Rhyl alibi and Rhyl witnesses

Hi All,

Personally speaking I find the Rhyl alibi very very persuasive and convincing. The nine main Rhyl witnesses, Terry Evans, Grace Jones, Brenda Harris, Margaret Walker, Ivy Vincent, Betty Davies, Christopher Larman, Trevor Dutton and Charlie Jones had no axe to grind with anyone. Their statements and testimony very much have the ring of truth about them. A young man looking remarkably like James Hanratty was wandering the streets of Rhyl on the evening of August 22nd 1961 looking for bed and breakfast accommodation. He was also trying to find a certain Terry Evans who worked at the funfair there. He also trying to sell a gold watch. Some people on this thread however would have us believe that Hanratty was remembering an earlier visit he had paid to Rhyl.

Let's examine Hanratty's movements from late March 1961 to August 21st.........

James Hanratty was released from Strangeways prison in Manchester on March 24th 1961. He spent a few days at home and then went off to Middlesborough where he obtained work at British Steel. He was there for only a week and returned to the family home on April 13th.

From April to July 13th he works alongside his father, James senior, as a window cleaner. Suddenly, on July 13th while his parents are still on holiday at Southsea he quits his window cleaning job and heads for the bright lights of Central London and the attractions of Soho. It's not long before he resumes his housebreaking and car thieving activities. He bumps into an old acquaintance, Charles France, who he hasn't seen in over three years and they renew their friendship. He stays on several occasions at the France family home.

Around midnight on Friday July 21st he steals (with the help of a friend) a Ford Consul. They drive north and stop off in Birmingham to sell the spare wheel so they can buy some petrol. They get as far as Shrewsbury Town Centre where the car gets a puncture. A policeman notices them and walks over to them, he becomes suspicious and asks Hanratty for his driving licence.
Hanratty scarpers from the scene, leaving the policeman holding his mate. He eventually makes good his escape after eluding a couple more policemen.

He eventually ends up in Cardiff, after hitching a couple of rides from lorry drivers. He obtains accommodation for the night there at a Salvation army hostel. First thing the following morning he goes to the Labour Exchange and obtains a new National Insurance Card. He walks some distance out of Cardiff and is given a lift from a lorry driver heading north. The following day he gets another lorry lift which takes him to the outskirts of Liverpool.

By this time he has only a few shillings left so he decides to burgle a house in Crosby (suburb of Liverpool). He steals a large amount of silver for which he is paid 25 shillings from a Liverpool jeweller.

Having a predilection for funfairs he decides to take a bus to Rhyl where he arrives early Tuesday evening, July 25th. This then is his first visit to Rhyl. This is when he makes the acquaintance of Terry Evans. Evans obtains work for Hanratty on the dodgems where he works for the next few hours as an attendant. At the end of the night Evans puts Hanratty up in his council house where he beds down on the living room sofa. Seeing the condition of Hanratty's worn down shoes Evans loans him a pair of his own recently acquired shoes. Next morning (July 26th) after breakfast, Evans drops his new friend off at the fairground while he attends a court summons. Hanratty, still wearing Evans's shoes, decides dodgems work is not to his liking and heads back to Liverpool. This is a very important point. Hanratty's first visit to Rhyl does not involve him hanging around the resort looking for bed and breakfast accommodation from Mrs Grace Jones, Mrs Margaret Walker, Mrs Ivy Vincent or Mrs Betty Davies. He spends just one night at Rhyl, as the guest of a newly made friend, Terry Evans.

On the evening of July 26th in Liverpool Hanratty is confronted by two men intent on mugging him. A scuffle ensues, fortunately for Hanratty some people appear on the scene and his attackers leg it away. The police are called to the scene and Hanratty is carried into a police-box on Lime Street.
His knee being injured in the scuffle, an ambulance is called and takes him to hospital for treatment. After his wounds are dressed Hanratty spends the night in a hostel where he pays 4 shillings for a bed.

The next morning, July 27th, Hanratty sells a silver lighter and a few other items stolen from the burglary in Crosby a couple of days earlier. He now has enough money for the train journey back to London. He turns up at the Frances where again he spends several nights. He also stays some nights at the home of Louise Anderson whose acquaintance he had made sometime in July. He spends the bank holiday weekend at the Frances (August 5th, 6th and 7th) during which Carole France dyes his hair black.

Hanratty's movements from this point on are accounted for, he resumed his house-breaking activities, took Louise Anderson out to dinner on Sunday, August 13th, spent some nights at her home, bumped into his cousin Eileen Cunningham in Willesden on August 17th (on which occasion she hardly recognised him owing to his jet-black dyed hair) and went on a date with Ann Pryce whom he had met at the Rehearsal Club in July. On Friday, August 18th,
he picked up his Hepworth suit from Burnt Oak. That weekend he stayed at Louise Anderson's. He called in at the Frances on Saturday (19th) to ask if Charlotte France could wash his suitcase full of dirty clothing and re-pack his case as he was intending to go to Liverpool on the Monday (21st).

So for those who suggest that James Hanratty was remembering (and describing in some detail) a previous visit to Rhyl, when exactly was this visit ?



PS. Excuse the length of this post

[JamesDean]

Hi All,

Personally speaking I find the Rhyl alibi very very persuasive and convincing. The nine main Rhyl witnesses, Terry Evans, Grace Jones, Brenda Harris, Margaret Walker, Ivy Vincent, Betty Davies, Christopher Larman, Trevor Dutton and Charlie Jones had no axe to grind with anyone. Their statements and testimony very much have the ring of truth about them. A young man looking remarkably like James Hanratty was wandering the streets of Rhyl on the evening of August 22nd 1961 looking for bed and breakfast accommodation. He was also trying to find a certain Terry Evans who worked at the funfair there. He also trying to sell a gold watch. Some people on this thread however would have us believe that Hanratty was remembering an earlier visit he had paid to Rhyl.

Let's examine Hanratty's movements from late March 1961 to August 21st.........

James Hanratty was released from Strangeways prison in Manchester on March 24th 1961. He spent a few days at home and then went off to Middlesborough where he obtained work at British Steel. He was there for only a week and returned to the family home on April 13th.

From April to July 13th he works alongside his father, James senior, as a window cleaner. Suddenly, on July 13th while his parents are still on holiday at Southsea he quits his window cleaning job and heads for the bright lights of Central London and the attractions of Soho. It's not long before he resumes his housebreaking and car thieving activities. He bumps into an old acquaintance, Charles France, who he hasn't seen in over three years and they renew their friendship. He stays on several occasions at the France family home.

Around midnight on Friday July 21st he steals (with the help of a friend) a Ford Consul. They drive north and stop off in Birmingham to sell the spare wheel so they can buy some petrol. They get as far as Shrewsbury Town Centre where the car gets a puncture. A policeman notices them and walks over to them, he becomes suspicious and asks Hanratty for his driving licence.
Hanratty scarpers from the scene, leaving the policeman holding his mate. He eventually makes good his escape after eluding a couple more policemen.

He eventually ends up in Cardiff, after hitching a couple of rides from lorry drivers. He obtains accommodation for the night there at a Salvation army hostel. First thing the following morning he goes to the Labour Exchange and obtains a new National Insurance Card. He walks some distance out of Cardiff and is given a lift from a lorry driver heading north. The following day he gets another lorry lift which takes him to the outskirts of Liverpool.

By this time he has only a few shillings left so he decides to burgle a house in Crosby (suburb of Liverpool). He steals a large amount of silver for which he is paid 25 shillings from a Liverpool jeweller.

Having a predilection for funfairs he decides to take a bus to Rhyl where he arrives early Tuesday evening, July 25th. This then is his first visit to Rhyl. This is when he makes the acquaintance of Terry Evans. Evans obtains work for Hanratty on the dodgems where he works for the next few hours as an attendant. At the end of the night Evans puts Hanratty up in his council house where he beds down on the living room sofa. Seeing the condition of Hanratty's worn down shoes Evans loans him a pair of his own recently acquired shoes. Next morning (July 26th) after breakfast, Evans drops his new friend off at the fairground while he attends a court summons. Hanratty, still wearing Evans's shoes, decides dodgems work is not to his liking and heads back to Liverpool. This is a very important point. Hanratty's first visit to Rhyl does not involve him hanging around the resort looking for bed and breakfast accommodation from Mrs Grace Jones, Mrs Margaret Walker, Mrs Ivy Vincent or Mrs Betty Davies. He spends just one night at Rhyl, as the guest of a newly made friend, Terry Evans.

On the evening of July 26th in Liverpool Hanratty is confronted by two men intent on mugging him. A scuffle ensues, fortunately for Hanratty some people appear on the scene and his attackers leg it away. The police are called to the scene and Hanratty is carried into a police-box on Lime Street.
His knee being injured in the scuffle, an ambulance is called and takes him to hospital for treatment. After his wounds are dressed Hanratty spends the night in a hostel where he pays 4 shillings for a bed.

The next morning, July 27th, Hanratty sells a silver lighter and a few other items stolen from the burglary in Crosby a couple of days earlier. He now has enough money for the train journey back to London. He turns up at the Frances where again he spends several nights. He also stays some nights at the home of Louise Anderson whose acquaintance he had made sometime in July. He spends the bank holiday weekend at the Frances (August 5th, 6th and 7th) during which Carole France dyes his hair black.

Hanratty's movements from this point on are accounted for, he resumed his house-breaking activities, took Louise Anderson out to dinner on Sunday, August 13th, spent some nights at her home, bumped into his cousin Eileen Cunningham in Willesden on August 17th (on which occasion she hardly recognised him owing to his jet-black dyed hair) and went on a date with Ann Pryce whom he had met at the Rehearsal Club in July. On Friday, August 18th,
he picked up his Hepworth suit from Burnt Oak. That weekend he stayed at Louise Anderson's. He called in at the Frances on Saturday (19th) to ask if Charlotte France could wash his suitcase full of dirty clothing and re-pack his case as he was intending to go to Liverpool on the Monday (21st).

So for those who suggest that James Hanratty was remembering (and describing in some detail) a previous visit to Rhyl, when exactly was this visit ?



PS. Excuse the length of this post

No need to apologise for the length of such an excellent post. I will be interested to see if anyone can counter your argument with anything factual.

I also agree with your comments in posts #2085 and #2086 regarding the identikit picture. In my opinion it is the spitting image of Alphon and I am amazed if anyone cannot see that. If Michael Clark looked similar to Alphon, which VS said he did, then how does she suddenly recognise Hanratty at the second lineup; he looks nothing like Alphon and, presumably, nothing like Michael Clark. Hanratty was convicted mostly upon the testimony of VS who was 'unwavering' in her identification of Hanratty. Something just doesn't add up!

Regards
James

[Tony]

No need to apologise for the length of such an excellent post. I will be interested to see if anyone can counter your argument with anything factual.

I also agree with your comments in posts #2085 and #2086 regarding the identikit picture. In my opinion it is the spitting image of Alphon and I am amazed if anyone cannot see that. If Michael Clark looked similar to Alphon, which VS said he did, then how does she suddenly recognise Hanratty at the second lineup; he looks nothing like Alphon and, presumably, nothing like Michael Clark. Hanratty was convicted mostly upon the testimony of VS who was 'unwavering' in her identification of Hanratty. Something just doesn't add up!

Regards
James

Hello James Dean,

I agree with you on the content of Jimarilyn’s post. Brilliant. It will be interesting as you say how anyone will be able to contest it. A very well put together post and not contained in that form in any of the books on the case.

I also have to restate my opinion that the first identikit, compiled by Miss Storie, looks strikingly like Peter Alphon and nothing like Hanratty.
I know full well that we will get the: “Ah yes but it’s all in the voice don’t you know.” But the fact remains we don’t know how much coaching she got before that parade from Acott and if she made another mistake Acott had nowhere else to turn. He would have been a failure in his task of solving the A6 murder case.
We do know from a member of the parade that Hanratty’s hair looked ridiculous and he was probably the only cockney there and it wouldn’t take more than a second for Acott to say the answer is in the hair colour would it?

Tony.

[Graham]

Hi all.

Been away, just got back, no time to catch up on posts. But...


...[1] The Rhyl Alibi has never been proven. Fact. Who apart from Hanratty ever said that he was 'wandering the streets of Rhyl on 22nd August trying to locate Terry Evans'? Anyone? Any supporting statement to that fact from a third party?

[2] If Alphon did it, where's his DNA? (Please, please don't ask me to go to the DNA Thread on this....my delicate constitution couldn't stand it)

[3] Still not convinced re: the Identikits

[4] Reproduction at length on this thread of what's been written by Foot and Woffinden is hugely interesting, especially to those who haven't read the books, but it still doesn't prove that what they wrote is totally factual. They, too, were only speculating when all's said and done.

Cheers,

Graham

[Tony]

Hi all.

Been away, just got back, no time to catch up on posts. But...


...[1] The Rhyl Alibi has never been proven. Fact. Who apart from Hanratty ever said that he was 'wandering the streets of Rhyl on 22nd August trying to locate Terry Evans'? Anyone? Any supporting statement to that fact from a third party?

[2] If Alphon did it, where's his DNA? (Please, please don't ask me to go to the DNA Thread on this....my delicate constitution couldn't stand it)

[3] Still not convinced re: the Identikits

[4] Reproduction at length on this thread of what's been written by Foot and Woffinden is hugely interesting, especially to those who haven't read the books, but it still doesn't prove that what they wrote is totally factual. They, too, were only speculating when all's said and done.

Cheers,

Graham

Hello Graham,

I hope you had a good holiday.

You have said many times on this thread that up until 2002 when the DNA results were made known you were convinced of Hanratty’s innocence. If not convinced then 90 odd percent sure.
Can I ask you just what aspect of the crime, evidence, trial, alibi or events between 1962 and 2002 convinced you that Hanratty was innocent? And if, has you have said, you thought he was innocent then who did you think committed the crime?

Tony.

[Tony]

Hello Graham,

I hope you had a good holiday.

You have said many times on this thread that up until 2002 when the DNA results were made known you were convinced of Hanratty’s innocence. If not convinced then 90 odd percent sure.
Can I ask you just what aspect of the crime, evidence, trial, alibi or events between 1962 and 2002 convinced you that Hanratty was innocent? And if, has you have said, you thought he was innocent then who did you think committed the crime?

Tony.

Graham,

I’ve just looked again at the identikit compiled by Valerie Storie and the photographs alongside of Peter Alphon.

Are you seriously saying that you can not see the resemblance?

If I had been Acott and armed with this identikit and then found Alphon I would have said to Oxford:
“Game, set and match Oxo my lad. Open the scotch”

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

Graham,

I’ve just looked again at the identikit compiled by Valerie Storie and the photographs alongside of Peter Alphon.

Are you seriously saying that you can not see the resemblance?

If I had been Acott and armed with this identikit and then found Alphon I would have said to Oxford:
“Game, set and match Oxo my lad. Open the scotch”

Tony.

Hi Tony,

Well said. I'll drink to that.

[jimarilyn]

As another point. Does anyone have any information as to what was said during Janet Gregsten's hospital visit to Valerie Storie were Mrs Gregsten later commented 'that Valerie is my friend'?

Hi Reg,
Can't help you much with that one. Janet was supposed to have said "I wanted to see her. She is my friend. She and my husband had a lot in common"
Oh, to have been a fly on that hospital room wall ! The studied look exchanged between the two women (in that well publicised photograph) does not seem overly friendly to me somehow. For some unknown reason Janet felt the need to visit Valerie again just two short days later, which seems a little strange.

[Tony]

Hi Reg,
Can't help you much with that one. Janet was supposed to have said "I wanted to see her. She is my friend. She and my husband had a lot in common"
Oh, to have been a fly on that hospital room wall ! The studied look exchanged between the two women (in that well publicised photograph) does not seem overly friendly to me somehow. For some unknown reason Janet felt the need to visit Valerie again just two short days later, which seems a little strange.

Good morning Jimarilyn,

I know that Janet said in interviews long after the crime that she had never believed in capital punishment and I also think she said she did not blame Hanratty’s parents for their campaigning.

But do you know if she ever expressed an opinion about the guilt or innocence of James Hanratty?
Also did she keep in touch or have any more meetings with VS?

Tony.