a6 murder

[P.L.A]

The Car's Mileage

The mileage question isn’t that straightforward.

On August 22nd 1961, Gregsten, at an unknown time and place put three gallons of petrol in the car and recorded a mileage of 51,875 in his logbook.

When found in Avondale Crescent, the odometer reading was 52,107.

The 232 miles covered was made up of:

- The unknown mileage driven by Gregsten after re-fueling at a time and place unknown.
- Storie’s house to the Old Station Inn
- The Old Station Inn to Marsh Lane
- Marsh Lane to Deadmans Hill (approximate mileage known).
- Deadmans Hill to Redbridge (route unknown).

Peter.

[Graham]

Hi Peter,

I just fed into my box of tricks postcodes for approximately the cornfield at Dorney Reach and approximately Deadman's Hill, and the route suggested is about 60 miles.

Deadman's Hill to approximately where the car was found at Redbridge comes out at about 65 miles.

Bear in mind that both the above are direct (shortest) routes per the roads as they are in 2008, not as they were in 1961. I think Steve has pointed out that the roads around London have changed considerably over the years.

Allowing for meandering, is it fair to suppose that the total mileage would be about 140 miles or a bit more? Which subtracted from the 232 miles per the car's odometer leaves about 90 miles unaccounted for. As you correctly say, no-one can know where Gregsten went between filling up and collecting Valerie Storie at her home. However, I can't really see how the Morris could have travelled to Matlock (and of course back again) in the miles recorded, the one-way trip from Clophill to Matlock being about 115 miles.

Cheers,

Graham

[P.L.A]

Alphon's DNA

Dr. Jonathan Whitaker, who led the DNA team on the A6 analysis, had samples of both Hanratty’s and Alphon’s DNA.

At the appeal, Crown and Hanratty’s counsels agreed that the DNA evidence proved Alphon could not have been the killer.

They differed in their views on whether the evidence proved Hanratty’s guilt.

Peter.

[reg1965]

Hi Peter,

I just fed into my box of tricks postcodes for approximately the cornfield at Dorney Reach and approximately Deadman's Hill, and the route suggested is about 60 miles.

Deadman's Hill to approximately where the car was found at Redbridge comes out at about 65 miles.

Bear in mind that both the above are direct (shortest) routes per the roads as they are in 2008, not as they were in 1961. I think Steve has pointed out that the roads around London have changed considerably over the years.

Allowing for meandering, is it fair to suppose that the total mileage would be about 140 miles or a bit more? Which subtracted from the 232 miles per the car's odometer leaves about 90 miles unaccounted for. As you correctly say, no-one can know where Gregsten went between filling up and collecting Valerie Storie at her home. However, I can't really see how the Morris could have travelled to Matlock (and of course back again) in the miles recorded, the one-way trip from Clophill to Matlock being about 115 miles.

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham
I agree that the Matlock sighting, even given the now known mileage, was perhaps wrong, although a tantilising morsel!

We also have to be sure that Gregstens original recordings were correct. This obviously means that the distance travelled could have been both more or less.

But the main point I think is that the now known milage throws the Redbridge witnesses testimony into turmoil (if it wasn't already at the time and after Foot's in depth re-examination).

The only thing that could put the Redbridge witnesses back on target (Not counting contradictory timings of the abandonment of the car) would be if the car was being driven consistently fast enough to cover the extra miles in the time allowed.

Say 65 miles from Deadmans Hill to Redbridge plus another 90 on top of that.

Time of death given of MG was about 4 am the Redbridge sightings at 7 am. That means the car would have to travel 155 odd miles at an average of over 50 mph. If we take off another hour and a half to include milkman Mr Draytons convincing sighting of the car in Bedford at 5:25 am. (Woffinden 1997. pps 443-444) then it becomes over 100 mph (if the car had been parked up for 2 hours - as no one else had seen the car in the area.)

These figures are probably wildly out, but it certainly puts the Redbridge sightings into severe doubt.

The jury were not allowed to know the facts about the mileage!!!!!!!!

Regards
Reg

[Limehouse]

Hi All,

There is a rather obvious motive, of course, for a highly sexed man who had no thought for the feelings of strangers, when invading their private property and taking whatever took his fancy.

It would be the same basic mentality to see a bit of posh back in 1961, willing to indulge in naughties in a car with an older man who was unlikely to be her husband. The curious observation made by the gunman after raping VS about her not having had much sex (as if he had expected her to respond as she would have done with the other man??) could be significant if he had convinced himself that she was no better than she should be and there for the taking - just like the watches and jewellery he could help himself to, courtesy of insecure homes and too many careless owners.

The man's mindset may have been a terrifyingly naïve one: get the other man out of the way for long enough and he could get what he had. But the man kept coming back and the desire kept getting stronger.

Love,

Caz
X

You have certainly made some very good points there.

[reg1965]

Dr. Jonathan Whitaker, who led the DNA team on the A6 analysis, had samples of both Hanratty’s and Alphon’s DNA.

At the appeal, Crown and Hanratty’s counsels agreed that the DNA evidence proved Alphon could not have been the killer.

They differed in their views on whether the evidence proved Hanratty’s guilt.

Peter.

Hi Peter

Do you know whether the Alphon sample came from him personally in 2000 or from the existing evidence on slides containing hair etc suggested to belong to Alphon by the appeal ruling document?

Regards
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi All

Do any of you have a favourite courtroom drama film or tv programme.

Mine is 12 Angry Men. My all time favourite film.

And before any of you start I don't profess to likening myself on the Henry Fonda character either

I would to think I am more like George Voskovic's juror number 11.

Anymore favourites or who in 12 Angry Men they associate with or not (could be on dangerous ground here!!)

Regards
Reg

[caz]

Hi Reg,

Yes, I love Twelve Angry Men - as well as the Hancock spoof on it!

Witness for the Prosecution is another great one (two versions I think - Marlene Dirtytricks and Diana Rigg?). The funny thing is I could watch it again today and still not remember the plot exactly, so it's fresh every time. Or perhaps I'm just going senile.

Love,

Caz
X

[P.L.A]

Alphon's DNA

Hi Reg

In an interview shown in one of the documentaries broadcast just after the appeal, Whittaker said he had analysed Alphon’s DNA before Hanratty’s exhumation. In his view, the results eliminated the First Suspect. The scientist didn’t say how he obtained the DNA.

My guess is that it was a recent acquisition. This is based on my assumption that if Alphon’s personal samples from 1961 were still available, so would Hanratty’s. This would have made the exhumation unnecessary.

After the exhumation there was no unidentified DNA on the exhibits, so it doesn’t matter whether Whittaker really had Alphon’s DNA or not. The only male DNA found on the exhibits was Hanratty’s. How it got there may be open to debate ……

If Alphon was forced to give a DNA sample on live television, there is nothing unaccounted for to compare it with.

Peter

[reg1965]

Hi Reg,

Yes, I love Twelve Angry Men - as well as the Hancock spoof on it!

Witness for the Prosecution is another great one (two versions I think - Marlene Dirtytricks and Diana Rigg?). The funny thing is I could watch it again today and still not remember the plot exactly, so it's fresh every time. Or perhaps I'm just going senile.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
Hancock...ah a genius to be sure.

I love both versions of WFTP. The relationship between Deborah Kerr and Ralph Richardson in the latest work is a joy to behold. Magic stuff.

Have you seen Inherit The Wind with Spencer Tracy and Freddie March? Inspired!
On those lines have you seen the US TV remakes of this and 12 Angry Men both starring George C Scott and Jack Lemmon? Both excellent and well worth buying IMO.

I also love JFK and especially the last 45 minutes or so where Jim Garrison recreates in court the day in Deeley Plaza...truth or fiction...who knows but very well done all the same.

Regards
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi all
Coming back to the point of the Knicker fragment that was put aside for safe keeping before the trial of JH.

Would I be right in saying that both then (1961) and now forensic science is a destructive exercise like archaeology.

Therefore how much of the fragments later forensic usefulness was originally destroyed in 1961 and for that matter later during handling for removal of further fragments for testing ie in 1995, 1997 and 2000?

Just a wee thought!
Reg

[reg1965]

Hi Reg

In an interview shown in one of the documentaries broadcast just after the appeal, Whittaker said he had analysed Alphon’s DNA before Hanratty’s exhumation. In his view, the results eliminated the First Suspect. The scientist didn’t say how he obtained the DNA.

My guess is that it was a recent acquisition. This is based on my assumption that if Alphon’s personal samples from 1961 were still available, so would Hanratty’s. This would have made the exhumation unnecessary.

After the exhumation there was no unidentified DNA on the exhibits, so it doesn’t matter whether Whittaker really had Alphon’s DNA or not. The only male DNA found on the exhibits was Hanratty’s. How it got there may be open to debate ……

If Alphon was forced to give a DNA sample on live television, there is nothing unaccounted for to compare it with.

Peter

Hi Peter
Can you recall which programme Whitaker said he anaylized Alphons DNA? Was it C4's Hanratty The Final Verdict? I cant find a transcript for this anywhere. Any help anyone on this?

I have been through the BBC Horizon (2002) transcript and cannot find any mention of it.

Kind regards
Reg

[caz]

Have you seen Inherit The Wind with Spencer Tracy and Freddie March? Inspired!
On those lines have you seen the US TV remakes of this and 12 Angry Men both starring George C Scott and Jack Lemmon? Both excellent and well worth buying IMO.

Morning Reg,

No, I haven't had the pleasure of these yet. If I have seen Inherit The Wind it must have been too long ago to remember. But it sounds so much up my street that when it was on tv earlier this year I whacked it onto the DVD recorder so I will get round to watching it eventually.

…how much of the fragments later forensic usefulness was originally destroyed in 1961 and for that matter later during handling for removal of further fragments for testing ie in 1995, 1997 and 2000?

On the subject of forensic ‘usefulness’, presumably you'd have to ask the specialists who routinely deal with evidence from old cases, where it may already have been subjected to various testing processes. I imagine a careful assessment would need to be made in each individual case.

But maybe this should be taken over to the thread opened specially to discuss the Hanratty forensics? I must have a look in a minute and see what I have missed there since my last visit. I trust you have all been behaving yourselves in my absence with the due decorum of the courtroom.

Have a great weekend and don't let yourself get too wound up over Hanratty. Think for just a moment what an animal he was if you are wrong about his innocence and only right about the quality of the evidence used to convict him.

Love,

Caz
X

[P.L.A]

Whittaker

Hi Reg

If Whittaker's interview wasn't included in the BBC programme, then it must have been on ITV's - think it was on Channel 4. I seem to remember that both were shown in the same week, after the appeal verdict was announced. He also did other interviews at the time.

Peter.

[jimarilyn]

First use of Identikit by Scotland Yard

Hi all,

Prior to the A6 murder the newly adopted US technique of Identikit had been used with great success by Scotland Yard since it was introduced 5 months earlier in March 1961.

On March 3rd 1961 an antiques shop assistant, 59 year old Elsie Batten, was found stabbed to death in the shop owned by Louis Meyer.

When Mr Meyer and a local shop assistant were interviewed by Det Sgt Raymond Dagg, they told him that they had seen a rather suspicious youth of Indian appearance at the shop a couple or so days earlier.

Dagg, aware of the new idea of Identikit, turned to America for help. He compiled a facial picture of the suspect with the help of Mr Meyer, and then, completely independently, from the other witness.

The two pictures bore a striking resemblance to each other and were then circulated and published in the Press.

On March 8th, Hilton Cole, a policeman from a nearby station, saw Edwin Bush in Old Compton Street in Soho and recognised him from the Identikit pictures.

Cole arrested Bush on suspicion of being the murderer.

Bush had a copy of the Identikit pictures (taken from a newspaper) in his pocket. His shoes were similar to marks left at the murder scene.

Bush was picked out at an identification parade by one of two witnesses and then confessed to the murder.

He was later convicted and executed on July 6th at Pentonville Prison.

Judge for yourselves how strikingly similar the picture of Bush is to his Identikit Picture...........