a6 murder

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#521 21st September 2007, 04:51 PM
granger
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Just reading about the traffic enumerator, John Kerr, and the mysterious disappearence of a piece of paper he says he had handed to a police officer after he had found, and spoken to Valerie Storie in the layby. Kerr was insistant that he had written down her name and address, and also the number plate of the car, together with her description of the murderer. What I find rather perplexing, is that he also said he had made a note of her height, 5' 3 and one quarter inches, which does seem a rather daft personal detail to have extracted from a badly wounded Miss Storie.

Apparently a search was made for the paper, and eventually one of Kerr's traffic census papers was found at the County Surveyors office with just the MM's number plate scribbled on the back, in hand writing Kerr says was not his. Apparently the proscecuting counsel then tried to say kerr had imagined his chat with Miss Storie.

Certainly a lot of odd things happened in the inquiry.


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#522 21st September 2007, 05:12 PM
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Hello Granger

Yes, The Vienna Hotel is now PART of a private residence. The doorway to what was the hotel is not in use at the present time. The door at the left of the picture is now the front entrance, so there will have been structural alterations to the interior of the two properties.

Graham is quite right, Room 24 was in the basement and there was open access to the garden at the back of the building.

Almost certainly the buildings were designed with servants in mind, they are from the ‘Upstairs, Downstairs’ era and Room 24 was probably at one time used as staff accommodation before being converted into a large hotel room with several beds. The little gateway you can see next to the main entrance leads down to what would have been the kitchen and this is where Nudds prepared the guests’ breakfasts during his brief employment at the hotel.

Hi Graham

I think that whole part of London has been cleaned up and there has been much new development since Hanratty’s day. I too would be interested to know what The Vienna Hotel is worth today; this part of London is now quite trendy, so property prices will be very high! And in fact, 'The Vienna Hotel' part of this building is only HALF of the property now.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#523 21st September 2007, 05:20 PM
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The Vienna Hotel

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Here is a close-up of the stairway leading down to what was the kitchen at The Vienna Hotel.
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#524 21st September 2007, 05:27 PM
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John Kerr

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Hello Granger

The John Kerr episode was indeed very interesting. John was interviewed on camera a few years ago for a television documentary about the A6 murder and what he had to say was fascinating. Especially his view of Hanratty and how Hanratty came across during the trial.

KR,
Steve


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#525 21st September 2007, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello Granger

The John Kerr episode was indeed very interesting. John was interviewed on camera a few years ago for a television documentary about the A6 murder and what he had to say was fascinating. Especially his view of Hanratty and how Hanratty came across during the trial.

KR,
Steve


Hi Steve: Can you elaborate on the interview. I should imagine Kerr is still alive? Have you any guesses as to why Kerr would have asked for VS's height.

When did you take the pictures? Can we look forward to some interior shots??(LOL).

Has anyone got any pix of the Vienna Hotel circa 60's?

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Last edited by granger : 21st September 2007 at 06:14 PM.


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#526 21st September 2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
I forgot to mention apropos the Vienna. When I was a nipper relations of mine ran a hotel/boarding-house in Cliftonville, and in the 1950's when we went for hols it was immaculately kept, and Uncle Harry was very careful about who stayed there. When I saw it two years ago it was very obviously a DSS hostel, and badly run-down, dirty and unkempt, and reminded me in a way of the Vienna as I always pictured it. Not that it matters, just a comment.

Graham



Hi Graham,

I would imagine that in Hanratty's time The Vienna was pretty grubby and I don't think he would have chosen to stay there. It would be interesting to know for how long the building was used as a hotel.

Also apropos hotels, this morning I kept an appointment with a client in South London. As we chatted I learned that his family’s business interests are in hotels, mainly in London and mostly in the Pimlico and Victoria areas. His mother (who is 75) has recently sold several London hotels, but is also looking to buy another hotel on the South Coast – perhaps with retirement in mind. The photo of the hotel I was shown looks remarkably like the building that used to be The Vienna Hotel.

My client's family name? France!

The Hanratty coincidences continue !!!

KR
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 21st September 2007 at 07:45 PM.


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#527 21st September 2007, 08:59 PM
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Steve,

I hope you asked the obvious question!

Although, in fairness, Charles France's real name was Franz.

Regarding the Vienna, again on some old TV documentary which I have on tape yet would take me weeks to find, there's some footage of the inside of The Vienna, including the stairs leading down to the basement rooms. It ain't the Ritz, but believe me, as a rep, I've stayed in worse places down the years.

Seems to me that Mr Pichler, the old boy who owned The Vienna and at least one other London hotel, was just running it on the cheap, employing immigrant labour where possible. Oh, and the Nudds too.
Now there is a mystery wrapped inside an enigma...just what was Mr Nudds up to? I've always felt that he had slightly more than just a walk-on part in this whole affair.

Cheers,

Graham

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Last edited by Graham : 21st September 2007 at 09:06 PM.


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#528 23rd September 2007, 10:38 AM
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[quote=granger;108801] What I find rather perplexing, is that he also said he had made a note of her height, 5' 3 and one quarter inches, which does seem a rather daft personal detail to have extracted from a badly wounded Miss Storie/quote]

Hello Granger

I believe Miss Storie mentioned her height as a comparison to the gunman's height. Did she not say something along the lines of 'he was a couple of inches taller than me and I am five foot three, etc'?

I could be wrong ....

KR
Steve


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#529 23rd September 2007, 10:53 AM
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[quote=Steve;109088]
Quote:
Originally Posted by granger
What I find rather perplexing, is that he also said he had made a note of her height, 5' 3 and one quarter inches, which does seem a rather daft personal detail to have extracted from a badly wounded Miss Storie/quote]

Hello Granger

I believe Miss Storie mentioned her height as a comparison to the gunman's height. Did she not say something along the lines of 'he was a couple of inches taller than me and I am five foot three, etc'?

I could be wrong ....

KR
Steve


Hi Steve: I would say you are most probably right.


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#530 23rd September 2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
I hope you asked the obvious question!

Seems to me that Mr Pichler, the old boy who owned The Vienna and at least one other London hotel ... Nudds too. Now there is a mystery wrapped inside an enigma...just what was Mr Nudds up to? I've always felt that he had slightly more than just a walk-on part in this whole affair.


Hi Graham

I did ask the obvious question, and got the inevitable answer:

‘Hanratty, who?’

I don’t believe that my client is any relation to Dixie, which is a pity because it would have been interesting to hear the family’s inside line on the case.

On the other hand, there is a strong possibility that you would not want to admit to being related to Dixie France, don’t you think?

Wasn’t it a group of four hotels owned by Herr Pichler? The Vienna, The Broadway House Hotel in Portman Square, and two others? I don't believe I ever knew the names or locations of the other two.

I agree with you about Nudds, the most-hated man in Britain who had many names other than Nudds. His real name was Glickberg, but he was also known as The Squealer. He was a police informer. He certainly did not have just a walk-on part, he had a central role in the investigation, and the police probably had a large degree of input into all three of his statements.

Kind regards,
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 23rd September 2007 at 10:58 AM.

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23rd September 2007, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granger
Hi Steve: Can you elaborate on the interview. I should imagine Kerr is still alive? Have you any guesses as to why Kerr would have asked for VS's height.

When did you take the pictures? Can we look forward to some interior shots??(LOL).

Has anyone got any pix of the Vienna Hotel circa 60's?


Hi Granger

Just noticed these questions.

I'll dig out the tape of the interview when I get chance. Might try and post it on YouTube.

The pictures where taken last Thursday, 20th September. If the property ever comes up for sale I'll get you some interior shots. (I need to get myself an apartment in town ..... )

I have some awful grainy b&w shots of the frontage from the 60's but too poor quality to post here.

KR
Steve


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#532 23rd September 2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Granger

Just noticed these questions.

I'll dig out the tape of the interview when I get chance. Might try and post it on YouTube.

The pictures where taken last Thursday, 20th September. If the property ever comes up for sale I'll get you some interior shots. (I need to get myself an apartment in town ..... )

I have some awful grainy b&w shots of the frontage from the 60's but too poor quality to post here.

KR
Steve



Hi Steve:

Great, let us know when posted. Surprisingly there doesn't appear to be any reference to JH on Youtube.

Not such a bad idea about the intereior shots. Some time ago I was trawling through the Internet and came across some estate agent pics of an apartment up for sale in The Old Priory, Balham, the scene of the Bravo poisoning. Needless to say the agents made no reference of the property's history.

Go on, please post the 'grainy shots', much better than nothing, and I am sure they will be of great interest.

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Last edited by granger : 23rd September 2007 at 05:44 PM.


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#533 23rd September 2007, 06:02 PM
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hi guys

after five ans a half months od enjoyable semi-retirement, i have got a new job. this means i don't have as much free time. just wanted to say i have mailed a letter to Michael Sherrard. will keep you posted as to progress

atb

larue


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#534 23rd September 2007, 06:03 PM
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Hi Granger

I think you are right about Youtube - I look from time to time and have never spotted anything. Hopefully someone will do so at some point. If ever 'The Vienna' comes up for sale it would present a good opportunity for someone to pretend to be a potential buyer, and take 'reference' photographs during the guided tour. Estate agents are so young these days its unlikely they would know anything about the building's history. Whenever I drive past there is no-one is in residence, so it's probably owned by someone with more than one home.

If you really want to see a B&W image I'll scan the best of them when I get to the office tomorrow.

KR
Steve


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#535 23rd September 2007, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
after five ans a half months od enjoyable semi-retirement, i have got a new job. this means i don't have as much free time. just wanted to say i have mailed a letter to Michael Sherrard. will keep you posted as to progress


Hello Larue

Glad you are once again in gainful employment and look forward to your updates.

KR
Steve


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#536 23rd September 2007, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi guys

after five ans a half months od enjoyable semi-retirement, i have got a new job. this means i don't have as much free time. just wanted to say i have mailed a letter to Michael Sherrard. will keep you posted as to progress

atb

larue


Hiya Larue.

Good to hear about your new job, mate. Best of luck. Also good to hear that you've written to Michael Sherrard - I was contemplating doing so, but I'm more than happy to await hearing of any reply you get. He seems a pretty decent kind of bloke. Hanratty was his first major case, too, and at the tender age of about 25, I believe.

I just watched the Antiques Roadshow for the first time for years, and noted that the closing sequence shows a Moggie Minor splittie convertible, pre-1952 to judge by the headlamps either side of the grille and not in the wings. I wonder how many of those are still on the road?

All the best,

Graham


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#537 23rd September 2007, 08:37 PM
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The circumstances surrounding the Vienna Hotel’s involvement in the A6 murder case are very interesting.

Apart from the obvious Alphon aspect to the case, the Vienna featured prominently only because Hanratty decided that it was too late to travel to Liverpool after his very busy Monday and asked a taxi driver to take him to a hotel. He probably requested a hotel near Euston Station, which would be the reason he ended up at The Broadway House Hotel in Portman Square.

Had he stayed at The Broadway House all he had to do the following morning was walk briskly up Baker Street, turn right into Marylebone Road, saunter past Madame Tussaud’s (that would have been ironic has it has turned out) and there was Euston Station pretty much straight in front of him.

As it happened the Broadway House was full on that Monday night, but another hotel in the group had a vacancy. That was The Vienna. So Hanratty spent the night in Maida Vale. The next morning he left the hotel and headed for the train station and, apparently, he found himself at Paddington. Quite easy to get there, a relatively short walk from The Vienna; just go down Warwick Avenue and there is the huge Paddington canopy right in your line of vision.

But he really intended to go to Euston Station and take a train to Liverpool. This was his stated intention, and he also stated that realising his mistake he took a taxi from Paddington to Euston, and subsequently travelled to Liverpool which would have then exonerated him from involvement in the murder.

If you are still with me, consider this. In 1961 Hanratty was living in a city he knew intimately; this was Hanratty’s town. He had lived there all of his adult life (with the exception of extensive absences at Her Majesty’s Pleasure) and would have known where the train stations were, and which services they provided. He told his brother at the dog track, ‘wait here, I’ll nip down The Rehearsal, someone owes me’ and off he went to collect cash. This was His Town.
There can be little doubt; he would have known the difference between Euston and Paddington.

Finding himself in Maida Vale on Tuesday morning, he would have known where Euston was geographically. Going to Paddington mistakenly is difficult to believe; the probable truth is that he went to Paddington because it was the nearest main station to where he spent the night. And that would be why he was in Slough!

Another interesting aspect to ‘Hanratty’s Town’ is that The Vienna’s location in Maida Vale places it very close to where Dixie France lived. It was just a short walk from Dixie’s home to The Vienna. Perhaps if Hanratty knew that he would be spending the night in Maida Vale he would have chosen to stay with the France’s. On that point we will never know.

However, The Vienna’s location just a short distance from Dixie’s home increases the possibility that Dixie went to the hotel to plant the spent cartridges in the room, room 24, that he knew Hanratty had slept in the night before the murder. It could even be that he was simply peeved that Hanratty chose to stay in a hotel virtually on his doorstep rather than accept his own hospitality – I don’t believe this, but we shouldn’t rule anything out.

What is absolutely certain is that if that taxi driver had taken Hanratty to a different hotel near Euston Station the course of history might well have been changed!

Kind regards,
Steve



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#538 23rd September 2007, 08:48 PM
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Steve,

Interesting, as always. However, it seems that Hanratty stayed in hotels and b&b's all over London, and I wonder if he'd stayed at The Broadway on previous occasions. I also wonder if he wasn't previously unknown at The Vienna. Alphon, too, stayed in many and varied hotels, the quality of them doubtless dependent upon his run of luck, or lack of it, at the dogs. There have always been rumours that Hanratty and Alphon were not unknown to each other, and maybe it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they met in one or other of the many hotels and b&b's they frequented. But if true, it's hard to see how two very disparate characters could have struck up any kind of relationship - disparate, that is, in their personalities, not their way of life, which was essentially similar, both of them being chancers.

But I most definitely agree with you that there is no way Hanratty would ever have confused Paddington with Euston, and this to me has always reinforced my contention that Hanratty was not in Liverpool on the night of the 22 August, and never had any intention of being there. He had things on his mind other than fencing a few quids' worth of nicked Tom.

Cheers,

Graham

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Last edited by Graham : 23rd September 2007 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Crap typing


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#539 23rd September 2007, 09:17 PM
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Another Hanratty Mystery

Half an hour ago, when I was flicking through the pages of Woffinden's book looking for references to Michael Sherrard, I came across this half-forgotten piece of Hanratty legend:

Immediately after the law lords rejected Hanratty's appeal,

an elderly, slightly-built woman wearing an olive-green overcoat and flowered straw hat stood up in the crowded public gallery and screamed, "It's not true! He didn't do it! You ought to ask the conductor on the No 36 bus!" The woman continued to shout as the judges rose and left the court. Then she walked out with the other members of the public and disappeared in the crowd in the street outside.

Woffinden says that this was reported in every paper that covered the appeal, and to this day no-one has the faintest idea who the woman was.
A nutter, or someone who genuinely possessed some relevant evidence? The conductor of the No 36 bus (36A, actually) during the morning in question was Pamela Patt, but she wasn't called to give evidence and her statement to the police was not considered important by the defence. Woffinden postulates that perhaps the woman in the gallery was referring to the conductor on the afternoon run.

Any ideas, guys?

Cheers,

Graham


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#540 Yesterday, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Another Hanratty Mystery

Half an hour ago, when I was flicking through the pages of Woffinden's book looking for references to Michael Sherrard, I came across this half-forgotten piece of Hanratty legend:

Immediately after the law lords rejected Hanratty's appeal,

an elderly, slightly-built woman wearing an olive-green overcoat and flowered straw hat stood up in the crowded public gallery and screamed, "It's not true! He didn't do it! You ought to ask the conductor on the No 36 bus!" The woman continued to shout as the judges rose and left the court. Then she walked out with the other members of the public and disappeared in the crowd in the street outside.

Woffinden says that this was reported in every paper that covered the appeal, and to this day no-one has the faintest idea who the woman was.
A nutter, or someone who genuinely possessed some relevant evidence? The conductor of the No 36 bus (36A, actually) during the morning in question was Pamela Patt, but she wasn't called to give evidence and her statement to the police was not considered important by the defence. Woffinden postulates that perhaps the woman in the gallery was referring to the conductor on the afternoon run.

Any ideas, guys?

Cheers,

Graham


Actually Woffinden writes that most of the newspapers reported that the lady in the hat screamed 'Ask ***** the conductor of the No 36 bus.

However, The Daily Herald filled the gaps in as 'Ask Mr Brine, the conductor of the No 36 bus'


Presumably we will never know, as it wasn't part of the trial transcript!!

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Last edited by granger : Yesterday at 12:38 PM.

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#541 24th September 2007, 04:19 PM
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Hi Granger.

Actually, in my copy of Woffinden he doesn't credit the unknown woman with shouting out the name 'Brine'. But elsewhere in the book he does mention Ernest Brine as the conductor of the 36A bus, but it's really just a passing reference as apparently all Brine said in his statement that the bus was busy and he'd issued more than 300 tickets that afternoon.

So who the hell was she???

Cheers,

Graham


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#542 24th September 2007, 05:12 PM
Steve
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Old B&W Photo

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As promised, Granger. (This is the best of a bad bunch!)
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#543 24th September 2007, 05:21 PM
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Old Station Inn

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Also found in my files this picture of the Old Station Inn taken in its final years. Aplogies if I've already posted this, cannot remember one way or another.
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#544 24th September 2007, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
But I most definitely agree with you that there is no way Hanratty would ever have confused Paddington with Euston, and this to me has always reinforced my contention that Hanratty was not in Liverpool on the night of the 22 August, and never had any intention of being there. He had things on his mind other than fencing a few quids' worth of nicked Tom.


Speaking as someone who has caught the wrong bus on several occasions due to being blurry-eyed first thing in the morning and/or hung over and/or lack of sleep, why is it so difficult imagining him wandering out the hotel and straight to the nearest station without properly engaging his brain, then realising the mistake and catching a cab to the correct station?

Especially if he was originally intending to stay in one hotel and got moved to another. And regularly stayed at a variety of hotels/b&b's.
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#545 24th September 2007, 07:48 PM
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Hello Victor

Hanratty didn’t drink so was certainly not hung-over, and apparently left the hotel bright as a button after a good night’s sleep. By all accounts he wasn’t the sharpest tool in the box, but he could not have confused Paddington with Euston. They are in opposite directions from The Vienna and he would have been familiar with both stations and their geography in relation to one another. Remember he knew the area around The Vienna because his friend Dixie lived close by, and he stayed at Dixie’s from time to time.

Rgds,
Steve


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#546 24th September 2007, 08:59 PM
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Hanratty In Custody

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Blame Granger - I've been trawling through years of files and found this one. Again apologies if I've already posted it on this site, but it's worth a look. You can't miss Acott, but I'm sure Hanratty is in there somewhere. Any idea which one he is?
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#547 24th September 2007, 09:11 PM
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Miss Storie

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A recent photograph of Miss Storie.

You cannot fail to admire her courage!
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#548 25th September 2007, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Hi Granger.

Actually, in my copy of Woffinden he doesn't credit the unknown woman with shouting out the name 'Brine'. But elsewhere in the book he does mention Ernest Brine as the conductor of the 36A bus, but it's really just a passing reference as apparently all Brine said in his statement that the bus was busy and he'd issued more than 300 tickets that afternoon.

So who the hell was she???

Cheers,

Graham


Steven:

An apology. My quote regarding the shouting lady in the hat, in fact came from Paul Foot's book (p.143).

A big thank you for the photos. Keep 'em coming, grainy or not!

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Last edited by granger : 25th September 2007 at 07:24 AM.


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#549 25th September 2007, 08:32 PM
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Hi,
Thanks for the wonderful Picture of Valerie, this poor woman has gone through hell, pure luck she survived the shooting, even if it has prevented her from living life to the full she is no quitter, and has my full admiration she learnt to live and adapt to her lack of mobility and can still manage a smile.
It is hard to imagine the sheer terror that she must have felt not only at the initial stage of a gunman pointing a gun through the car window, and then sitting in the back seat with instructions to look straight ahead while he rambled on about himself, but also the lengthy drive around not knowing when they could be shot.
Then the fateful climax.
Two bullets at close range through Gregsons head,a blood splattered Valerie then ordered to submitt to a rape[ one sick dude] and then after pleading for her life found herself being used as target practise.
Whoever committed this crime was one sick person , who else could kill a man in the confined space of a morris minor and then find himself aroused enough to committ rape in the back seat which i can asure you is rather cramped.
Regards Richard,


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#550 25th September 2007, 08:48 PM
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Evening Richard.

I second your comments wholeheartedly. There had of course been murder by shooting and rape and attempted murder many, many times in the past prior to the A6 Case, but this was probably the first time in modern criminal history that a jury was asked to try so brutal and horrifying a case. As I've said before in this thread, there was very little protest at the time against Hanratty's sentence, the public perception being that he deserved it. Valerie Storie featured in what I think was the last full-length documentary about the A6 Case, and watching her and listening to her brought home the full horror of what she experienced. It's little wonder that nowadays she refuses to discuss it.

And in the same documentary Simon Gregsten gave a very moving commentary on the effect upon his family, especially his mother. Always easy to recall the criminal, less easy to recall the victims. The classic example being, how many of Peter Sutcliffe's victims can the average person name?
Hanratty destroyed many lives other than his own.

Cheers,

Graham

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James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#551 27th September 2007, 04:50 PM
Limehouse
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Hi Folks,

A brilliant picture of Valerie Storey - and what a brave lady!

Sorry the promised pics of 3-4 Archer Street have not yet materialised as hubby has not been near Soho in his cab lately ("too many bloody pedicabs!"

However, has anyone read July's edition of Ripperana? It features a story about a murder that took place in the flat above a club at 3-4 Archer Street (the Globe Club) in 1935. The vicitm was Josephine Martin (French Fifi), a 'hostess' whose death and killer remains a mystery. The article is written by Sam Goodlass who states that 'nowadays, 3-4 Archer Street houses a gay club but in 1935, the basement housed the Cairo Club, the ground floor housed the Windmill Club and the first floor housed the Globe Club, with four falts above that'. Goodlass does not mention Hanratty or the club's 1960s history.

Hope to post some pics of the modern club as soon as he gets near the West End.


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#552 27th September 2007, 06:18 PM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limehouse
Hi Folks,

A brilliant picture of Valerie Storey - and what a brave lady!

Sorry the promised pics of 3-4 Archer Street have not yet materialised as hubby has not been near Soho in his cab lately ("too many bloody pedicabs!"

However, has anyone read July's edition of Ripperana? It features a story about a murder that took place in the flat above a club at 3-4 Archer Street (the Globe Club) in 1935. The vicitm was Josephine Martin (French Fifi), a 'hostess' whose death and killer remains a mystery. The article is written by Sam Goodlass who states that 'nowadays, 3-4 Archer Street houses a gay club but in 1935, the basement housed the Cairo Club, the ground floor housed the Windmill Club and the first floor housed the Globe Club, with four falts above that'. Goodlass does not mention Hanratty or the club's 1960s history.

Hope to post some pics of the modern club as soon as he gets near the West End.


Was this near by? I see Hanratty and 'Dixie' France mentioned.

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/confessional_harmony.htm

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#553 27th September 2007, 06:24 PM
Steve
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Hi Granger

That link was very interesting - thanks for posting it. The reference to Dixie being in charge is fascinating!

The address in Archer Street that Limehouse was posting about is the address where The Rehearsal Club used to be. This was the club frequented by Hanratty and France.

KR
Steve


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#554 27th September 2007, 06:29 PM
Steve
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Take a look at this:

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/RIP.html

Hanratty & France sat side by side?

It's not, but you have to look twice !!!


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#555 27th September 2007, 06:44 PM
Steve
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Sorry, Granger.

I've just re-read your post and I misunderstood you. Yes, the cafe you have discovered was very close to The Rehearsal Club in Archer Street.

As a matter of interest, Louise Anderson's antiques shop was also quite close by. It's no longer an antiques shop.

KR
Steve


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#556 27th September 2007, 07:28 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Take a look at this:

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/RIP.html

Hanratty & France sat side by side?

It's not, but you have to look twice !!!


Steve,

Those gents are Gilbert & George, artists. Good chance that Dan Farson was under the table!

Cheers,

Graham


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#557 27th September 2007, 07:33 PM
Limehouse
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Classic Cafes has, for some time, been one of my favourite websites. It offers an endless amount of interesting information about lost London and its characters. It was from this site that I heard about the book Rodinsky's Room, one of the best reads since City of Dreadful Delight.


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#558 27th September 2007, 08:01 PM
Steve
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Hi Graham

I had sussed they were G & G but you have to admit the image is a bit spooky on a Hanratty thread !!!

Useful link posted by Granger - a new facet to the life & times of Dixie France !

KR
Steve


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#559 28th September 2007, 09:06 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Graham

I had sussed they were G & G but you have to admit the image is a bit spooky on a Hanratty thread !!!

Useful link posted by Granger - a new facet to the life & times of Dixie France !

KR
Steve


Hiya Steve.

First time in 46 years I ever heard that Dixie France had interests in a cafe.

However, having said that, Dixie has always been portrayed as some kind of mean-minded petty crook, yet his wife and family were obviously very hospitable, and in 'that' documentary (which I swear one day I will find amongst my videos) his younger daughter really does come across as a person who lived amongst a caring family. I wonder if history has done the dirty on Dixie. OK, he certainly did err on the side of naughtiness, but as far as I can tell from reading Foot and Woffinden, his crimes were not exactly
heinous. And the last letter to his wife and family (at least the one that the police allowed to be published) show without any doubt at all that he had a caring side to him.

Cheers,

Graham


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#560 28th September 2007, 09:24 PM
Steve
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Hi Graham

I think he was probably more the hired help at the cafe than being in charge. The description of him as a gofer is probably apt and I suspect this part of his career occurred before Hanratty met up with him again in 1961. The bit in the cafe article about him being a known police informer was illuminating. Is this true, or just another inaccuracy to sit alongside the incorrect timing of his suicide?

That said, I have long thought the full story of Dixie's life would make interesting reading - not enough for a biography, but enough for an essay.

The way his family were duped at the trial by Louise Anderson's disclosure about Hanratty's gun being kept in their airing cupboard shows they were the 'put upon' people in the overall scheme of things. In all probability Dixie was one of life's no-hopers who happened to be married to a good woman who brought the family up totally correctly.

KR
Steve

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#561 29th September 2007, 08:24 AM
Limehouse
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I must admit, the impression I gained of Dixie and his family was of them being a warm and friendly working-class family who welcomed Hanratty into their home on a fairly regular basis.

However, I have always wondered about Dixie's role in Hanratty's conviction and the possible motives he might have had in perhaps 'planting' evidence against Hanratty. Woffendin's book describes how Hanratty was 'intimate' with Dixie's daughter during an outing that appeared to be their first date (not forgetting that Hanratty was also 'intimate' with several other women).
I wonder whether this intimacy lead to anything that would cause Dixie to incriminate Hanratty, especially if he was indeed a police informer?

Of course, if Hanratty was guilty, all that Dixie could have done was provide some of the evidence that sealed Hanratty's fate.

The suicide of Dixie does, perhaps indicate that he was a decent man and that his relationship with Hanratty played on his mind for some reason or another, either because he had allowed such a disturbed and vicious criminal to come into close proximity to his family, or because Dixie himself played a part in Hanratty's conviction and he was less than certain that Hanratty was responsible.


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#562 29th September 2007, 12:05 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limehouse


... especially if he was indeed a police informer?




Hello Limehouse

Was Dixie France a police informer?

I don’t think so. Police informers are usually known in the criminal community, and if Dixie had been a ‘grass’ Hanratty would have been aware of it, in which case he wouldn’t have entrusted Dixie with so much information. For instance, he wouldn’t have talked to him about his methods, shown him some of his contraband and discussed disposing of unwanted items under the back seat of a bus. He wouldn’t even have stayed under the same roof as France.

Dixie may well have helped the police insofar has Hanratty and the A6 murder is concerned, but it’s most unlikely that he was an informer before that time. The article about the café posted by Granger, interesting though it is, cannot be be relied on to provide accurate information about these aspects of the A6 murder case; it is wrong in one other respect. It states that France committed suicide shortly after the execution when we all know that he in fact committed suicide before Hanratty was hanged. Although he had attempted suicide previously, France actually took his own life immediately after the appeal had been rejected and the day after a date had been set for the execution.

One of the things that I notice is the number of factual inaccuracies that continue to crop up about the A6 murder. Just one example is Superintendent Bob Acott’s first name. He is still referred to as Robert Acott in contemporary articles (even Paul Foot referred to him as Robert.) It is an easy mistake to make of course, assuming incorrectly that someone known as Bob is really Robert, but his name was Basil Acott. Bob was just a nickname.

Kind regards
Steve


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#563 29th September 2007, 07:51 PM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello Limehouse

Was Dixie France a police informer?

I don’t think so. Police informers are usually known in the criminal community, and if Dixie had been a ‘grass’ Hanratty would have been aware of it, in which case he wouldn’t have entrusted Dixie with so much information. For instance, he wouldn’t have talked to him about his methods, shown him some of his contraband and discussed disposing of unwanted items under the back seat of a bus. He wouldn’t even have stayed under the same roof as France.

Dixie may well have helped the police insofar has Hanratty and the A6 murder is concerned, but it’s most unlikely that he was an informer before that time. The article about the café posted by Granger, interesting though it is, cannot be be relied on to provide accurate information about these aspects of the A6 murder case; it is wrong in one other respect. It states that France committed suicide shortly after the execution when we all know that he in fact committed suicide before Hanratty was hanged. Although he had attempted suicide previously, France actually took his own life immediately after the appeal had been rejected and the day after a date had been set for the execution.

One of the things that I notice is the number of factual inaccuracies that continue to crop up about the A6 murder. Just one example is Superintendent Bob Acott’s first name. He is still referred to as Robert Acott in contemporary articles (even Paul Foot referred to him as Robert.) It is an easy mistake to make of course, assuming incorrectly that someone known as Bob is really Robert, but his name was Basil Acott. Bob was just a nickname.

Kind regards
Steve


I believe 'Dixie' France left some suicide notes, the contents of which were the contents of which seem to infer that France ended up hating Hanratty over something,


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#564 29th September 2007, 08:01 PM
Steve
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Hello Granger

Dixie's final letters have never fully been made public, they are held under a 50-year rule, or perhaps a 500-year rule! One of them has made it to the public domain. Foot saw all of them, but under the strict understanding that he did not comment on them. He agreed to this and stuck the agreement, to his credit.

KR
Steve


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#565 2nd October 2007, 06:11 PM
Steve
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The Rehearsal Club in Soho

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Here is a recent photograph of what was The Rehearsal Club in 1961 when Hanratty was a frequent customer.
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#566 2nd October 2007, 06:54 PM
Limehouse
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I wonder what has happened to the basement? The entrance must now be inside the main building.

At one time this building housed up to three clubs and contained four flats.


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#567 2nd October 2007, 08:38 PM
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Regarding Dixie's last letters, Bob Woffinden makes the (rather ambiguous) statement that 'the Home Office has always withheld his last letters, although Charlotte France made a number available to the Sunday Times'. This, Woffinden says, she did in an effort to explain Dixie's horror and remorse at having introduced a sex murderer into his home.

(By the way, although I'm no lawyer, I've always understood that a dead person's personal papers automatically became the property of his or her next-of-kin. Even if such papers contained information helpful to the police or other authorities, the papers were, after copying or analysis, still returned to the next-of-kin. I believe the only exception is when the security of the state is threatened. As far as I can recall, Lee Harvey Oswald's personal papers were eventually returned to his widow - OK, that was under US and not UK law. Can anyone confirm/contradict this?)

Woffinden then goes on to the old, vexed question of just how the police made the Ryan-Hanratty connection. I think we can forget the 'She Saw Him At The Cleaners' scenario - like Woffinden, I rather think that the connection was suggested to the police by Dixie France who, upon realising that he had effectively helped send Hanratty to the gallows, ended his own life. France was, after all, a witness for the prosecution, a slightly surprising situation for someone who had once been Hanratty's friend.

Cheers,

Graham


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#568 3rd October 2007, 04:51 PM
Steve
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The Louise Anderson Triangle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some commentators on the Hanratty case have been surprised that Dixie France knew where to find Bill Ewer when he went to Ewer’s shop to apologise for the death of Michael Gregsten.

The truth was probably that Dixie was well aware of Bill Ewer’s shop, if not Ewer himself, long before the murder. The France family home was half a mile away from Ewer’s shop, so it was one of their local shops. Even if they didn’t buy anything they would have known about it and probably knew the shop’s owner by sight.

What is surprising is this:

? London villain James Hanratty stays the night at a hotel he hadn’t intended staying at and as a result goes to the wrong railway station the following morning
? Finding himself on a train heading for Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, etc. he decides to get off near Slough
? That evening he commits a crime totally out of his normal modus operandi, quite randomly picking a young couple he came across sitting in a Morris Minor in the middle of nowhere

It subsequently turns out that:

? The murdered man’s brother-in-law is in the same line of business as Hanratty’s friend Louise Anderson, with whom Hanratty occasionally spent the night
? Another friend of Hanratty with whom he also occasionally spent the night, Charles France, lives 600 yards away from where the murdered man’s brother-in-law has his business

The scale of these coincidences is staggering, and when you think about that, the ‘She Saw Him at The Cleaners’ story doesn’t seem quite so far fetched.

Louise Anderson’s part in this is intriguing. She started out saying that she liked Hanratty and found him easy to talk to. She ended up insisting that he was a monster and had admitted to her that he had killed a man. Almost certainly, 99.9% certain, Louise bought stolen items from Hanratty; she gave him money, allowed him to spend the night at her flat. Hanratty testified to all of this at the trial. There is every indication that their relationship was a positive one; Hanratty even proposed marriage to her. It’s likely that he wasn’t 100% serious, Louise was old enough to be his mother, and for this reason it’s unlikely their relationship was anything other than platonic. If Louise Anderson’s assessment of Hanratty’s character was as negative as it later became there is no doubt that he would not have been allowed to get so close to her. Louise would not have given Hanratty her home address. If Hanratty hadn’t trusted Louise he wouldn’t have left his suitcase with her.

They did business together and they were also friends. So what changed? Louise’s disgust at Hanratty turning out to be a murderer and a rapist? If just that why tell lies, why make up a confession, which was patently untrue. If it had been true she would have told the court about Hanratty’s confession. So it wasn’t that. Was it that Louise needed to distance herself from her association with Hanratty? Very probably. She was never prosecuted for handling stolen goods.

It is also likely that Dixie France and Louise Anderson knew one another. Her shop was just around the corner from The Rehearsal Club, France knew Soho intimately, and if Louise was a fence she would have been known to people like France.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#569 3rd October 2007, 07:44 PM
Steve
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The France Family Home

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This is the block of flats where the France family lived in 1961 and 1962 at the time of the A6 murder. This is where Hanratty occasionally spent the night in 1961. The flats are still standing today.
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#570 4th October 2007, 12:02 PM
maverick20054
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Hi everybody - thanks for all the interesting info and photos!! Just want to put in my 5 cents worth…

According to Paul Foot the Hanratty family were given the defence papers some years after the trial and he used them as an integral part of his book. It would be fascinating to see these - presumably these are back now with the family – Michael Hanratty was the main driving force behind trying to prove his brother’s innocence after the death of the father and he was obviously gutted when the Appeal Court came up with the DNA evidence. What are our thoughts on trying to contact Michael? The last time I saw him on TV he was walking away from the Court in disgust saying “all I know is that a couple of bent coppers killed my brother” so he may not be overly forthcoming but I could be wrong. I would love to see a full transcript of the trial – does anyone know if a copy exists other than the one in the defence papers?

I have three hours of Hanratty TV coverage consisting of the three main programmes and various news clippings on video – I hope soon to get the technology to copy these to CD – would anyone be interested in a copy? I presume I would not be breaking copyright!! Included in one of the programs are photos of the outside and inside of the Morris – the former show no broken windscreen and the latter what looks like bloodstains around the footwell on the drivers side – Gregsten’s head must have been blown forward towards the steering wheel (away from the seats which appear intact). A .38 could easily do this I think.

Photos of Hanratty were taken outside the Bedford Court after he ran the Rhyl alibi – I think these are the ones which look more contrived in nature and have him wearing a tie. If not – where are they??

One of the jurors (who will remain nameless) has come forward and appeared on TV – he spoke of his relief that the DNA ruling exonerated the verdict which is understandable.

I never quite understand why Acott & Co went straight for Alphon when he stayed at the Vienna ON the night of the murder in a DIFFERENT room to where the cartridge cases were found – obviously the police knew him to be an oddball who they could easily fit up. How different things would have been if Valerie had picked him out…

Regards to all

[larue]

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#571 4th October 2007, 01:09 PM
Victor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limehouse
I wonder what has happened to the basement? The entrance must now be inside the main building.

At one time this building housed up to three clubs and contained four flats.



I've been in Barcode, and the basement houses a second bar and dance area where more "intimate" dancing goes on.
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#572 5th October 2007, 07:06 AM
Graham
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Maverick,

Great post! I for one would be interested in a CD of your clippings, but if I were you I'd check regarding copyright, just in case.

Alphon first became embroiled in this case when the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel, where Alphon was staying shortly after the murder, reported him to the police because of his weird behaviour. There was evidence that he was interested in the A6 murder, and also that he resembled one of the photofits, and the police took it from there. As far as I can recall - I don't have my books with me - Alphon admitted quite freely that he'd stayed at the Vienna on the night of the murder, using this as his alibi.

Cheers,

Graham


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#573 5th October 2007, 08:28 PM
larue
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hi all.

sadly, nothing to report yet regarding my letter to Michael Sherrard. thanks for the recent posts, fascinating and thought provoking as always. i need to re-read those re Dixie France, to try to get a handle on his involvement...
thanks also for the photographs Steve.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick20054
What are our thoughts on trying to contact Michael?



i have wondered aboot this, after i wrote to Michael Sherrard. i for one would be up for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick20054
I would love to see a full transcript of the trial – does anyone know if a copy exists other than the one in the defence papers?



as would i Maverick. i phoned the Bedford Assize court aboot a month ago, aksing this very question. the answer is yes, the transcript does exist, and is viewable by prior appointment. [sadly for me, a new job has meant that i will be unable to take up this offer in the forseeable future.] i was kinda hoping that the transcript would have been converted into a .pdf file or some such, but no luck. it is a 620,000 word document, and would take a bunch of reading.

best regards to you all

larue


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#574 5th October 2007, 08:37 PM
Steve
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Photographs

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Hi Larue

You are welcome for the photographs.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#575 5th October 2007, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi all.

sadly, nothing to report yet regarding my letter to Michael Sherrard. thanks for the recent posts, fascinating and thought provoking as always. i need to re-read those re Dixie France, to try to get a handle on his involvement...
thanks also for the photographs Steve.




i have wondered aboot this, after i wrote to Michael Sherrard. i for one would be up for it.



as would i Maverick. i phoned the Bedford Assize court aboot a month ago, aksing this very question. the answer is yes, the transcript does exist, and is viewable by prior appointment. [sadly for me, a new job has meant that i will be unable to take up this offer in the forseeable future.] i was kinda hoping that the transcript would have been converted into a .pdf file or some such, but no luck. it is a 620,000 word document, and would take a bunch of reading.

best regards to you all

larue


Hi Larue,

Don't be too impatient re: a reply from Mr Sherrard - the legal profession does tend to take its time...

Re: the trial transcript, well, it was and I think remains the longest murder trial in British legal history. Were the people in Bedford suggesting that you could pop in and have a read of the transcript during your lunch-break or something? Is it not on microfilm, and if so how much would a copy cost?

Your efforts in these areas are mighty, Larue. If I had a 1950 Morris Minor Splittie I'd give it to you as a present. However, with regards to Michael Hanratty, I'm not so sure....I think if he felt you or anyone else was working towards proving his brother's innocence he may be willing to exchange views, but otherwise...hmm, I'm just thinking how I would feel if I were he.

Thanks to everyone who's made posts here, on what I consider to be the best non-Ripper thread on this site. Consistently fascinating.

Cheers,

Graham


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#576 Yesterday, 04:40 PM
larue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Hi Larue,

Don't be too impatient re: a reply from Mr Sherrard - the legal profession does tend to take its time...

Re: the trial transcript, well, it was and I think remains the longest murder trial in British legal history. Were the people in Bedford suggesting that you could pop in and have a read of the transcript during your lunch-break or something? Is it not on microfilm, and if so how much would a copy cost?

Your efforts in these areas are mighty, Larue. If I had a 1950 Morris Minor Splittie I'd give it to you as a present. However, with regards to Michael Hanratty, I'm not so sure....I think if he felt you or anyone else was working towards proving his brother's innocence he may be willing to exchange views, but otherwise...hmm, I'm just thinking how I would feel if I were he.

Thanks to everyone who's made posts here, on what I consider to be the best non-Ripper thread on this site. Consistently fascinating.

Cheers,

Graham



thank you Graham, you are too kind.

i was not able to ellicit any greater details re the transcript from the young lady i spoke to at Bedford Assize. the problem is, most of the people i have queried, in the Bedford court, the local crown court here in Worcester and the local libraries, are all a lot younger than the crime, and seem to have only a very vague and sketchy knowledge of it. i do not believe copies are available for purchase, nor do i know for that matter the exact nature of the format it is in. t'would be a bummer if it only exists in shorthand form. i would have thought that maybe it would have been transferred to micro-fishe at least. i guess i should call them again. might have better luck...

with regard to Mr Sherrard, you are quite right, patience is the thing here. the disruption in the postal service may not be helping either. i'll keep you posted [groan]

maybe you are right aboot Michael Hanratty, i'll bet his personal views would be something to hear though!!!!

best regards

larue

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Last edited by larue : Yesterday at 05:01 PM.


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#577 Yesterday, 04:44 PM
larue
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hi all, i almost forgot...

thursday 25 october @ 2.30pm
crime and investigation channel-great crimes and trials-the a6 murder

i think it's one of those half hour jobs, maybe you have already seen/recorded it...maybe not. thought i'd mention it, just in case

atb

larue


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#578 Yesterday, 04:59 PM
larue
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hi all

just found this at: http://www.clsg.org.uk/hanratty.htm


JAMES HANRATTY'S BARRISTER TAKES THE STAND

Michael Sherrard QC, the barrister who defended James Hanratty in one of the most controversial trials of the 20th century, came to City to talk to members of the Law Society about his experiences during the famous Hanratty trial.
The case was tried 40 years ago, and Hanratty was hanged for murder. In 1999 the Criminal Cases Review Commission referred the case to the Court of Appeal as DNA taken from members of Hanratty's family was analysed to test its compatibility with DNA samples collected from the crime scene. The results were inconclusive, and Hanratty was exhumed so that samples could be taken directly from his body.
Mr Sherrard's talk was fascinating, and touched on some of the most fundamental precepts of the law. He discussed the circumstances surrounding the original trial, and remarked, "If police officers choose what they'll disclose and what they won't, it becomes trial by police".
The recent DNA tests would seem to prove conclusively that Hanratty did in fact commit the crime for which he was executed. Mr Sherrard said, "The wrong man was not hanged. That was an immense relief to me." However, his opinion of the original prosecution remains unchanged. "The evidence was too weak to justify conviction. I still hold that view."
So, have things changed for the better since that infamous trial 40 years ago? Mr Sherrard believes that the legal system has been substantially improved: "I've got more faith in the police today than I did then."

quote
Mr Sherrard said, "The wrong man was not hanged. That was an immense relief to me."

i guess that answers one of the main question i wanted to aks!

atb

larue


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#579 Yesterday, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi all

just found this at: http://www.clsg.org.uk/hanratty.htm





From the reference, '40 years ago', I guess that talk was two or three years back?


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#580 Yesterday, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Thanks to everyone who's made posts here, on what I consider to be the best non-Ripper thread on this site. Consistently fascinating.

Cheers,

Graham


I second that. I think the imput from all interested posters has been excellent. Keep them coming!

[larue]

6th October 2007, 08:01 PM
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I agree that the discussion on this thread has been excellent and the contribution of photographs and relevant quote has added to that so i would like to thank those concerned.

Now, with reference to the DNA tests, I read a comment in the Daily Telegraph very recently that referred to a recent Panarama Television Programme that seemed to throw the value of a lot of old DNA evidence into great doubt. Did anyone see the programme? Can anyone fill me in as to its contents?

I still have some nagging doubts about that DNA evidence. I know there have been some valuable contributions to this thread from people who once thought Hanratty was innocent but who were convinced by the DNA evidence and by Valerie Storey's continuing insistance that Hanratty was the man - and I do, honestly, value your views and have been more than half convinced by them - but I still have this little voice saying 'are you sure?' and I must admit, I'm not totally sure.

Perhaps my views have been coloured by the books I have read, the authors of which were convinced of Hanratty's innocence and therefore presented the evidence accordingly. Perhaps I have also been swayed by Hanratty's family and their avowed belief in Hanratty's innocence. In reality, I am too young to remember the crime - but remember the newspapers carrying that picture of Hanratty after the execution date was set - and I remember the whispers of the adults around me that he was probably innocent.

No matter how I try, I just can't see Hanratty as the vicious killer he must have been if he was responsible for this crime. I suppose that the nature of the crime and its pointlessness makes it very difficult to imagine who could have been responsible. The killer has to remain faceless and nameless, an eternal mystery or else you have to come to terms with the reality of human brutality.

A bit like Jack really.


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#582 6th October 2007, 09:29 PM
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Hi Limehouse.

Until the DNA results were published, I'd have bet my sweet bippy that Hanratty had been stitched up for the A6 murder. And I think that goes for 99% of the people taking an interest in this crime. However, in the cold light of day, I seriously feel that Hanratty put the noose around his own neck due to his sudden change in alibi half-way through his trial, and the disastrous wrecking by the prosecution of Grace Jones' evidence. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the more I think about it the more I reckon that the jury was fatally swayed by these factors, and that it effectively wiped away the somewhat dubious tactics of the police. It didn't matter in the end that Mr Justice Gorman was perceptibly shocked by the verdict - the jury saw Hanratty basically as a liar, and they reacted accordingly. I believe that I'm correct in saying that these days it's not permissible for a defendant to change his alibi evidence once a trial has begun. As far as the DNA is concerned, yes, there are doubts being cast upon its absolute reliability, and I suppose it's not impossible that at some future time the tests can be repeated, but for the time being we have to accept the results as they stand.

I agree that it's hard to imagine a man like Hanratty suddenly turning into a killer and a rapist. If he didn't do it, then the only other suspect is Peter Alphon, and how close did he come to ending up on the gallows instead of James Hanratty? But there again, prior to the A6 Case, Alphon was at worst a chancer, a gambler, a fairly repugnant character all round, but why would he suddenly turn into a murderer and a rapist?

For me, all of this encapsulates the enthralling nature of this case - for every question that might be answered a further question arises, ad infinitum. Michael Sherrard in his opening speech for the defence described the case as one which is dripping with coincidence, and never was a truer word spoken. I sometimes wonder if there exists something so blatantly obvious that we've all missed it...

Cheers,

Graham


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#583 7th October 2007, 07:50 AM
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Thanks Graham, and you're quite right about the alibi - an innocent man would not have had to change it - unless he was not the only one involved and he thought his first alibi would be backed up.

I can't fully see Alphon as the murderer either - although he seems much creepier and colder than Hanratty and seems to have fantasised about being the murderer.

It's all such a very long time ago. maybe all those concerned who are no longer with us should finally rest in peace.


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#584 8th October 2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limehouse
It's all such a very long time ago. maybe all those concerned who are no longer with us should finally rest in peace.


But it would seem quite possibly that Peter Alphon appears not yet to be 'resting in peace'.

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Last edited by granger : 8th October 2007 at 08:15 AM.


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#585 12th October 2007, 09:15 AM
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Hanratty's Name

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As a point of interest, both the birth and death registers show that the person convicted of the A6 murder was James Hanratty. It was his father that was James Francis Hanratty. Seems like Bob Woffinden got a bit confused over this.


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#586 12th October 2007, 10:12 AM
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James Francis Hanratty

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Hello BOB

Welcome to the Casebook and to the Hanratty thread.

James Hanratty senior's name was listed in the telephone directory as:

'Hanratty, James F - COLindale 1951'

The marker on Hanratty junior's grave in Watford names him as just 'James Hanratty.'

KR
Steve


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#587 12th October 2007, 01:08 PM
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Bob Acott

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Bit of trivia for those interested - Basil Montague Acott was born on 25th January 1913 and died in July 2001. No wonder he liked to be known as Bob.


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#588 12th October 2007, 01:12 PM
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What happened to the bullets??

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One thing that puzzles me... In the accounts that I have read it is always accepted that the gunman fired two .38 bullets into the lower left back of Gregsten's head. These two bullets were fired at close range in such rapid succession that they both entered at the same point. Both shots were "through and through" exiting Gregstens head through the right cheekbone about 1" apart. I have never seen anything written regarding what happened to these bullets. One would think that the chances were high of them penetrating either the windscreen, or perhaps the drivers window, but close examination of photographs of the car prove that is not the case. It is possible the bullets hit the "A post" but I have never seen that substantiated. Nor can I recollect the bullets being recovered from the footwell of the car... And just how did the gunman drive that car? There must have been blood everywhere, including the windscreen! We know that during the rape Gregsten's blood could be heard running...


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#589 12th October 2007, 01:18 PM
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Bob Acott

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Another snippet of trivia about Acott, I believe that he retired to Kent after he left the Metropolitan Police.


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#590 12th October 2007, 01:25 PM
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Hello arieldave

Welcome to another new poster!

There has been some previous discussion on this thread about what happened to the spent bullets, it is a mystery at this point in time.

The amount of blood in the car must have been substantial, yet Hanratty seems to have avoided smearing his suit with blood. Anothery mystery!

Also, you could reasonably have expected the gunman to have blood on his shoes, yet no mention was ever made of bloody footprints walking away from the car.

KR
Steve

[larue]

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Bob Acott

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Apart from his service with the RAF during WWII, Acott lived in London all his life. He was born in Gidea Park, Romford, East London and joined the police as soon as he was able at age 19. When he retired from the Metropolitan Police after 34 years he had reached the rank of Commander. At this point he was still in his early fifties, and even in retirement he didn't move far from London, only as far as Bexley in Kent.


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#592 12th October 2007, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello arieldave

............The amount of blood in the car must have been substantial, yet Hanratty seems to have avoided smearing his suit with blood. Anothery mystery!

Also, you could reasonably have expected the gunman to have blood on his shoes, yet no mention was ever made of bloody footprints walking away from the car.

KR
Steve


Shades of the murder of Julia Wallace, IF William Wallace was the murderer!


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#593 12th October 2007, 03:31 PM
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Bullets

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I asked the same question months ago on this thread, and Stan Reid suggested that if the driver's window was open (it was a warm night) then the bullets may well have passed through it and into the countryside. I'd say this is a very likely explanation.

Bob Acott was a bomber pilot during the War and did a full tour.

After the A6 Case he rarely gave interviews about it, but made the famous remark to Woffinden that he always thought it was a 'gas meter job', i.e., an inside job. Well, if that's what he thought, then he must have based that statement upon evidence and/or knowledge that he never disclosed - along with what I consider is a huge amount of evidence and knowledge about this case that's never been disclosed.

Cheers,

Graham


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#594 12th October 2007, 03:47 PM
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Hi Graham

I always thought Woffinden got the bit about the 'gas meter job' wrong, or misunderstood what Acott said on the subject.

Another couple of snippets of Acott trivia for BOB:

Whilst Acott was working at The Yard, he lived in South London. He had a house in Purley, then moved a couple of miles further south to Kenley, which is where he was living at the time of his retirement from the police.

I believe that he moved to Kent to be close to a cousin who was living there.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#595 12th October 2007, 07:41 PM
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Gas Meter Job

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Hi Steve.

You may well be right about this. Coppers don't like loose ends, and I'm sure that a detective of Acott's stature would have delved very deeply into matters had he thought Hanratty was part of some sort of conspiracy.

I just re-read the passage in Woffinden's book, and the 'gas-meter' comment was actually made to reporter Lewis Chester, not to Woffinden.

Makes you wonder....

Cheers,

Graham


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#596 12th October 2007, 08:30 PM
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Hi Graham

Acott's comment, whatever it actually was, lost something in the translation. Acott must have been convinced that Hanratty was the culprit, I don't believe otherwise, and Woffinden's interpretation of this comment falls into the category of hearsay.

It has to be disregarded in a proper assessment of the A6 murder.

KR
Steve


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#597 12th October 2007, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Graham

Acott's comment, whatever it actually was, lost something in the translation. Acott must have been convinced that Hanratty was the culprit, I don't believe otherwise, and Woffinden's interpretation of this comment falls into the category of hearsay.

It has to be disregarded in a proper assessment of the A6 murder.

KR
Steve


Hi Steve.

Of course Acott thought Hanratty was the culprit, and made no bones about this. As I understand it, his 'gas meter' comment was interpreted, with reference to police jargon of the time, to mean that he was implying that Hanratty had been hired by someone in Gregsten's family. I don't believe that either.

Cheers,

Graham


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#598 14th October 2007, 12:05 PM
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Bob Acott

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Bob Acott didn't personally arrest Victor John Terry, the Worthing bank raid murderer in the sense suggested by some books. Terry was apprehended by Scottish police in a Glasgow hotel. Acott flew to Scotland with Sergeant John Rudd and brought the killer and Valerie Salter, his girlfriend, back to England - again by plane.

Acott may well have personally arrested police killer Gunther Fritz Erwin Podola. As a DCI, he led a police raid on the London hotel where the gunman was in hiding.

The Terry case made Acott something of a household name. His profile was very high during the A6 investigation and it is a mystery to me how none of the Hanratty household realised who he and Oxford were when the detectives visited Sycamore Grove.


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#599 14th October 2007, 12:49 PM
Steve
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Bob Acott

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BOB

Acott did have quite a high profile as a senior police officer. He was also a wartime hero. In November 1944 he was awarded the Dinstinguished Flying Cross whilst attached to 61 Squadron as an Acting Flight Lieutenant. He was later promoted to the substantive rank of Flight Lieutenant. He volunteered for the RAF at the start of the war and gained his commission during the war.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#600 15th October 2007, 12:35 PM
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The Bedford charge-sheet

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From early in the twentieth century, till it was changed in 1964, English judge made law meant that a person on trial for murder or murders could not be tried for any other offence at the same time.

It was therefore technically impossible for Hanratty to face rape and attempted murder charges at his murder trial in 1962.

[larue]

15th October 2007, 06:24 PM
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Thanks, BOB

I had always assumed that Hanratty was charged only with the Gregsten murder because the police deliberately 'held back' charges of rape and attempted murder in case they failed to gain a conviction for the murder charge, and so that Hanratty could then be tried for one of the other two crimes.

It just shows that you learn something new every day!


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#602 15th October 2007, 08:41 PM
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Alphon

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During the war Peter Alphon was evacuated for his own safety to Horsham. He went to stay with a family by the name of Durrant, and later took that name as one of his aliases.

This is a picture of the address in Horsham where Alphon stayed during that first part of his evacuation period.


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#603 15th October 2007, 09:03 PM
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Alphon

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This is a picture of Alphon's first wartime evacution address.
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#604 17th October 2007, 06:53 AM
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Hanratty In Kingsbury Prior To The Murder

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On Friday 18th August 1961, James Hanratty picked up his beloved Hepworth's herringbone suit from their branch at 43 Burnt Oak Broadway.

The shop is less than a mile from the then Hanratty home in Sycamore Grove.

This shows that he WAS in this general area just before the crime.


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#605 17th October 2007, 07:29 AM
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Steve

It was common practice to hold a second murder charge in reserve incase anything went wrong at trial. Timothy Evans is a good example, as is Christie.


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#606 Yesterday, 07:11 AM
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3 Years, or 5?

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We will never know the exact words spoken by the gunman in the back of the car in relation to his imprisonment history, but it is interesting to note that James Hanratty spent a total of 4 years 11 months as a guest of Her Majesty. This time consisted of three separate terms, viz:

- August 1955 to February 1957. 19 months of a two year sentence for housebreaking.

- July 1957 to November 1957. Four months of a six month sentence for stealing a motor car, etc.

- March 1958 to March 1961. All of a three year sentence for stealing a motor car, etc.

A major Sunday Times feature in December 1966 revealed that during his last sentence, Hanratty habitually spat in the face of warders.


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#607 Yesterday, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
We will never know the exact words spoken by the gunman in the back of the car in relation to his imprisonment history, but it is interesting to note that James Hanratty spent a total of 4 years 11 months as a guest of Her Majesty. This time consisted of three separate terms, viz:

- August 1955 to February 1957. 19 months of a two year sentence for housebreaking.

- July 1957 to November 1957. Four months of a six month sentence for stealing a motor car, etc.

- March 1958 to March 1961. All of a three year sentence for stealing a motor car, etc.

A major Sunday Times feature in December 1966 revealed that during his last sentence, Hanratty habitually spat in the face of warders.


Hello Bob.

Glad you posted the above, especially the last sentence. Anyone reading Foot and Woffinden could well come away with the impression that JH was a kind of little-boy-lost figure, a somewhat misguided innocent wandering around in the great big dangerous world. My reading of his character is that he was a hard case, someone perfectly capable of looking after himself (I think Foot relates a case where two roughs tried to con money out of JH, who whacked one of them and legged it), but who also used his boyish looks to best advantage when required. Probably a reasonably nice bloke on the surface, with a certain charm, but with a very short fuse when provocation came his way.

Cheers,

Graham


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#608 Yesterday, 02:10 PM
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Graham
Yes, prisoners that are basically compliant simply don't "do the lot". Hanratty didn't seem to get much of the maximum one third remission available at the time.

Hope you picked up the significance of this post and the one about the location of the Hepworths shop.

The shop post relates to the road works evidence and gives the lie to the claim that there is no evidence to suggest Hanratty was in that area just before the murder.

The point about Hanratty's prison history relates to the fact that the gunman told Gregsten and Storie that he had spent five years in jail, but JH supporters say he had just been released from a three year stretch. As I said, we will never know the exact words used - but if we look at his total time spent behind bars, then this part of the descripion of himself given by the gunman is closer to our Jim than his supporters would like us to believe.


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#609 Yesterday, 02:50 PM
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BOB

You are quite right about Hanratty having been in the area immediately prior to the murder. He spent the night before his Vienna Hotel stay with Louise Anderson at her flat in London and his known movements the week before the murder place him in different parts of London.

The Hepworths shop in Colindale was about a three mile walk or bus ride from his parents’ home in Kingsbury, and even though he hadn’t stayed there for a while he would have been familiar with the area. That, of course, is how he knew the roadworks were there.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#610 Yesterday, 09:43 PM
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Bob,

I didn't see the connection immediately, I have to confess, but it always seemed to me rather significant that Valerie thought it important to mention what the killer said about the roadworks. I'm afraid my knowledge of that part of London is pretty scant. As it seems that JH went around either by public transport or, when he was in the money, by taxi, it isn't suprising that he knew about the roadworks.

I wonder if he deliberately took Gregsten and Valerie close to his home, perhaps so they could drop him off if he bottled out. Who knows? The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that it was the sheer unpredictability of JH's nature that made him carry on.

Cheers,

Graham

[larue]

Yesterday, 09:55 PM
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Graham

I've always believed this part of the journey in the Morris Minor was intended to deliver Hanratty back to London, not necessarily to his parent's home, but at least back to his own territory.

It has to be more than a coincidence that the journey went in that direction.

KR
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#612 Yesterday, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Graham

I've always believed this part of the journey in the Morris Minor was intended to deliver Hanratty back to London, not necessarily to his parent's home, but at least back to his own territory.

It has to be more than a coincidence that the journey went in that direction.

KR
Steve


Steve,

It makes you wonder just how the conversation went that night in the car to persuade JH to carry on up to the A6...

Cheers,

Graham


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#613 Yesterday, 10:03 PM
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By this point he had decided he liked the look of the female in the car ...


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#614 Yesterday, 10:11 PM
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What makes the A6 murder case so fascinating?

For many years, many people reading the Foot book and later the Woffinden book believed the real possibility that Hanratty had been framed, was innocent and had been murdered by the state. Also, that the true killer, some believed his name to be Alphon, was still a free man.

We have always known of the many coincidences associated with the case; Alphon & Hanratty both staying at the same hotel on consecutive nights, possibly even in the same room. Many other coincidences, of course.

We have also always known that Hanratty’s guilt was put into question by the apparent lack of motive, and the fact that he would not normally be expected to operate in the way that the A6 killer had done on that night in August 1961.

Many people believed there had been a conspiracy against Hanratty, many people believed the killer had been paid to frighten the couple in the Morris Minor.

The DNA evidence silenced most of this speculation and put paid to the belief that Hanratty was a nice young man who had been executed for a crime he hadn’t committed. The truth was out; Hanratty had been a killer and a rapist.

However, what if there had been a conspiracy after all?

Consider this:

We are in London and it is Summer 1961. Harold Macmillan is Prime Minister; Del Shannon’s ‘Runaway’ and Elvis Presley’s ‘Surrender’ vie for Number One spot in the Hit Parade; and no-one has heard of congestion charging or traffic cameras.

Two ladies are shopping on a Saturday afternoon. They pop in to a local antiques shop and chat with the man who owns the shop, he is a neighbour of theirs, has repaired their umbrellas for them on occasion, and the conversation turns to the son of one of the ladies and the nephew of the second lady. The shop owner enquires after the son and the subject of his marriage, the state of which is common knowledge in this part of London. Before his marriage the son was also a neighbour of the antiques shop owner, and there is a family relationship too, the son’s wife is a half-sister-in-law of his.

The ladies chat, you could say gossip, about the fact that the son is having a long-standing affair with a young girl in the office. They wish something could be done about it, something to bring him back to his senses, if only for the children’s sake. The lady really does not want her two grandsons to be brought up in a broken marriage, and second lady feels the same way about her grand nephews.

The antiques shop owner thinks he might be able to help, to do these two ladies a favour. Also, he has a soft spot for the wayward husband’s wife and does not want to see her hurt. He knows a man who might be able to help, so he starts to make enquiries.

The man who he thinks might be able to help lives just around the corner from the antiques shop. He is not a customer, probably can’t afford the prices, but they have exchanged pleasantries at the local café, and he thinks his wife once brought an umbrella into the shop for repair. He is known locally to be a convicted criminal and have been to prison.

The two ladies are Jeanie May Gregsten and Hilda Oulet. Jeanie’s son Michael is married to Janet, nee Phillips and Janet’s half-sister Valerie is married to the antique shop owner William Ewer.

The man who Bill Ewer knows is Dixie France.

Dixie says he knows a chap just out of prison, not too bright, will do anything for money and is looking to progress from housebreaking to stick-up jobs. Might be that this chap will ‘have a word’ with Michael and warn him off seeing Valerie. Perhaps he will do it as a favour, perhaps he won’t want any money, perhaps he just needs to be given a gun as he has been talking about getting a gun anyway.

Things progress, the young villain does as he is asked, takes a train to Slough where Bill has told him the couple do their courting. The information is from Michael’s mother, and Bill’s wife says she has heard that Michael’s girlfriend lives in Cippenham and that the couple often call into a pub in Taplow, The Old Station Inn, for a drink.

Unfortunately the young villain is not up to the task of ‘having a word.’

He finds the couple and forces entry to their car at gunpoint. Asked his name he cannot thing of a name other than his own so says ‘call me Jim’ and he finds himself attracted to the young woman.

You know what happens next that night.

The following day there is a plan in place to dispose of any evidence. Dixie is in charge and over the next days he puts the gun on the 36A bus, in a place he knew he could link to the young villain. When this failed to point the police in the correct direction he went to The Vienna and left spent cartridge cases in the room he knew had been occupied by the young villain. To be completely certain he then went to the police with the young villain’s name, Jim Hanratty.

The rest is history.

Is this fact or fiction?

Much of it is fact!

For the part of this story that is speculation, I can only say that it could well have happened this way.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#615 Yesterday, 10:17 PM
Graham
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Steve,

Then I'd have thought he'd have 'got rid' of Gregsten much sooner - not killed him, but just kicked him out of the car. He had plenty of opportunities - at the petrol-station, for example. I wonder if he found himself in a situation to which he had no rational response - had he been in Gregsten's shoes perhaps he'd have got the hell out of it when he had the chance. Valerie did say that Gregsten had the opportunity to clear off, and maybe JH was unable to come to terms with a situation in which a man chose to remain with his woman. Again - who knows?

Cheers,

Graham


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#616 Yesterday, 10:29 PM
Steve
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Graham

Valerie & Mike were not taking him seriously at this point, dont you think?

They didn't have our knowledge of what has happened in the world since 1961, and the thought of it ending that way didn't occur to them. They didn't realise just how bad Hanratty was. If Mike had known his fate he might well have legged it. If Valerie had known she might well have driven off and left Mike & Hanratty behind. The opportunities were there, but none of them knew what we know, which is how the long night finally ended; Mike dead and Valerie left for dead.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

KR
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#617 Yesterday, 10:38 PM
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Steve,

You are, of course, absolutely right. Someone like Hanratty was totally foreign to anything in Mike and Valerie's previous experience. And I'd go so far as to say that Mike and Valerie were totally foreign to anything or anyone that Hanratty had encountered previously. Perhaps that's why he 'lost it', that he had to continue the nightmare to its conclusion.

Cheers,

Graham


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#618 Yesterday, 11:31 PM
larue
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB

It was common practice to hold a second murder charge in reserve incase anything went wrong at trial. Timothy Evans is a good example, as is Christie.


hi Bob

interesting...

i have been given to understand that the crown went for evans re the murder of his child because the chances of a conviction were considered to be far higher than for the murder of his wife.

in the case of several murders, the accused is only tried for one [at a time] as an anomaly during the trial which could destroy the prosecution's case could have a knock on effect regarding the trial[s] for the other murders.

it appears the crown wants every possible bite of the cherry...


regards

larue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by larue : Yesterday at 11:50 PM.


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#619 Yesterday, 11:49 PM
larue
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post 614

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi Steve

i'm glad you have made this post,[614] as it saves me from asking you aboot your implication of charles france in a previous post. that is a very plausable scenario, but it makes me wonder aboot the natures of the men involved. i can understand the part about wanting to put the frighteners on gregsten, but what a way to go aboot it!!! give a villain a gun, wind him up and let him go. if what you suggest actually happened, ewer and france must have came very close to soiling their underwear when they read the morning papers!... and again when jh went to trial, knowing he could have grassed them up any time...

atb

larue


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#620 Yesterday, 11:55 PM
larue
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi all

since starting my new job, i seem to have very little time for the good stuff, like this thread.

still no news on the Michael Sherrard front i'm afraid. i have not given up hope yet though.

on a brighter note, i have just received copies of jean justice's book, as well as bob woffinden's and paul foot's. so that is my bed-time reading requirements sorted. thanks again to abe books.

best regards to you all


larue

[larue]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#621 20th October 2007, 08:46 AM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
ewer and france must have came very close to soiling their underwear when they read the morning papers!... and again when jh went to trial, knowing he could have grassed them up any time...




Hello Larue

One can only speculate on any conspiracy theory. There is no-one left alive to ask. But if Ewer was involved at any level it's probably the case that Hanratty didn't know who he was. Ewer would have gone to great pains to distance himself from a direct connection with Hanratty - that would have been Dixie's job.

It is possible, though, that Ewer had Hanratty pointed out to him. It is of course possible that Hanratty was aware of Ewer's relationship to the Gregsten family and did know who he was. This might well have been the background to why Hanratty was spotted near the antiques shop so soon after the murder.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#622 20th October 2007, 10:40 AM
larue
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi Steve


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
One can only speculate on any conspiracy theory.


of course. that's very true [fun though]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
There is no-one left alive to ask.


But would they answer you truthfully if they could?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
It is of course possible that Hanratty was aware of Ewer's relationship to the Gregsten family and did know who he was.



now there's a thought! was jh aware of the gregsten family i wonder???
if so, it would add another dimension to the consiracy theory.

best regards

larue


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#623 20th October 2007, 12:44 PM
Steve
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Hi Larue

Hanratty oftened stayed with the France family in 1961, and the France family home was just around the corner from Ewer's shop. We know that Hanratty used the Dry Cleaner shop very near to Ewer's shop. There is every possibility that Hanratty knew Ewer, or vice versa, at least by sight before the murder.

There is also a possibility that Hanratty offered some of his stolen goods to Ewer at some time. Ewer and Louise Anderson were in the same line of business, so Hanratty might have at least wondered about the possibility of selling goods to Ewer's shop.

I have to say I think it unlikely, though.

KR
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#624 20th October 2007, 09:29 PM
Graham
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ewer was, of course, Janet Gregsten's brother-in-law, and he and his wife along with Janet lived in the same house for a time. Woffinden more or less identified Ewer as the 'central figure', and more or less pointed the finger at him as the man who put up the money so that Alphon could do the job on Gregsten. I never quite understood how an umbrella-repairer, and a small-time antiques-dealer, could find the money necessary to explain the large payments into Alphon's bank-account. I think Woffinden is way off the mark here, clutching at straws almost.

But I do agree that assuming France and Ewer were known to each other, that there is a good chance that at some point France introduced Hanratty to him.

By Janet Gregsten's own admission, she and Ewer became, briefly, lovers after the murder of Michael, so if, per Woffinden's theory, Ewer wanted Michael out of the way so he could claim Janet as his own, then Ewer had his way after all.

Personally, I just cannot accept that the Gregsten family put someone up to scare Michael out of his relationship with Valerie. The Morris Minor was, by the way, the property of Michael's aunt Hilda Oulet, and I'm sure that if she knew her nephew was 'carrying on' with Valerie, she'd never have been so generous.

Cheers,

Graham


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#625 23rd October 2007, 07:02 AM
BOB
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Blackpool

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hanratty's telephone call to Acott from Liverpool on 7th October would have resulted in the whole Lancashire police force being on the lookout for him. It can be no great surprise that he was recognised by officers in Blackpool four days later.

In Blackpool, Hanratty booked a room at Hope House, 80 Central Drive, before going a little way down the road to Stevonia at number 64 for his last ever meal as a free man.

Hope House was run by Sidney and Lily Pearson and their daughter, Jean Shellito (not Skellito) - married to Fred, a bus conductor.

Jean told me that the police searched Hanratty's room for five days - even though the fugitive hadn't actually entered it. He had just put his head through the open door, said it would do, and went down the road looking for somewhere to eat.

Police HQ that Hanratty was taken to on the corner of South King Street and Albert Road has long gone.

The famous picture shows him being taken out of the station with a cape over his head by Superintendent Charles Barron, head of Bedfordshire CID, and DCI Harold Whiffen - to whom he is handcuffed.

The geeky looking uniformed officer in the picture is PC D. Taylor.

On their journey to Bedford, the party took a break at Stoke on Trent police HQ.

Minor point - Al Read was heading the show at the Queens Theatre, with Yana as a special guest - not the other way round.


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#626 23rd October 2007, 02:17 PM
Steve
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Blackpool

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the whole Lancashire police force would have been on the lookout for Hanratty at that time, but it was apparently two detectives on routine patrol who recognised and arrested him. I think perhaps that the police were tipped off by someone either at the Stevonia or elsewhere that Hanratty or someone who looked like him could be found there.


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#627 23rd October 2007, 02:44 PM
granger
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
........The famous picture shows him being taken out of the station with a cape over his head by Superintendent Charles Barron, head of Bedfordshire CID, and DCI Harold Whiffen - to whom he is handcuffed.

The geeky looking uniformed officer in the picture is PC D. Taylor...........




Here it is.

Can anyone tell me the subjects in this other pic. I am not sure which is JH!

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/33608...5A1E4F32AD3138

Attached Images


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by granger : 23rd October 2007 at 02:52 PM.


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#628 23rd October 2007, 02:47 PM
Steve
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Juna Antiques

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A recent picture of the shop where Louise Anderson traded.
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#629 23rd October 2007, 02:49 PM
Steve
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Famous Picture

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A slightly bigger version of the same picture.
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#630 23rd October 2007, 02:58 PM
Steve
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Yes, the whole Lancashire police force would have been on the lookout for Hanratty at that time, but it was apparently two detectives on routine patrol who recognised and arrested him. I think perhaps that the police were tipped off by someone either at the Stevonia or elsewhere that Hanratty or someone who looked like him could be found there.


Actually in those days I think it would have been the local Blackpool police who made the arrest. I could be wrong but I don't think the county-wide force came into existence until the late 1960's or early 1970's.

[larue]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#631 23rd October 2007, 07:19 PM
Graham
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
Hanratty's telephone call to Acott from Liverpool on 7th October would have resulted in the whole Lancashire police force being on the lookout for him. It can be no great surprise that he was recognised by officers in Blackpool four days later.

In Blackpool, Hanratty booked a room at Hope House, 80 Central Drive, before going a little way down the road to Stevonia at number 64 for his last ever meal as a free man.

Hope House was run by Sidney and Lily Pearson and their daughter, Jean Shellito (not Skellito) - married to Fred, a bus conductor.

Jean told me that the police searched Hanratty's room for five days - even though the fugitive hadn't actually entered it. He had just put his head through the open door, said it would do, and went down the road looking for somewhere to eat.

Police HQ that Hanratty was taken to on the corner of South King Street and Albert Road has long gone.

The famous picture shows him being taken out of the station with a cape over his head by Superintendent Charles Barron, head of Bedfordshire CID, and DCI Harold Whiffen - to whom he is handcuffed.

The geeky looking uniformed officer in the picture is PC D. Taylor.

On their journey to Bedford, the party took a break at Stoke on Trent police HQ.

Minor point - Al Read was heading the show at the Queens Theatre, with Yana as a special guest - not the other way round.


Hi Bob,

Very interesting post. Regarding JH and Hope House, only Woffinden mentions this, and Jean 'Skellito'; there's nothing in Foot so far as I can tell. Neither writer mentions the location of Hope House or the identity of Jean 'Skellito's' parents. Obviously you've met Jean Shillito - I don't want to pry, but did you meet her in the course of investigation into the Hanratty Case? Why should the police search his (unused) room for five days? What on earth were they looking for? Foot describes JH's booking into a doss-house in Blackpool - was Hope House really that kind of place?

I'd be very interested if you have any further comments or information concerning JH.

Al Read was a funny man - I remember him well.

Cheers,

Graham


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#632 24th October 2007, 11:45 AM
BOB
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The arrest in Blackpool

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve

I accept your point that a tip-off may have led to Hanratty's detention, but if that is so, then it must have been local to Stevonia.

There certainly wasn't a major police operation to apprehend this prize. There wasn't even a car ready to take the country's most wanted man to Police HQ - this mile or so journey was made by foot.


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#633 24th October 2007, 12:01 PM
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BOB

That is absolutely fascinating!

The A6 murderer walked to the police station between two police detectives. Even taking into account that it was 1961 and police cars were nowhere near as common as they are today it seems unbelievable.

My assumption was that the tip-off came from someone working at the cafe who had time to observe Hanratty and recognised him from descriptions in the news.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#634 24th October 2007, 12:45 PM
BOB
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Blackpool Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Graham

No need to worry about prying, Acott made a living out of doing it.

My knowledge about Blackpool comes from spending many hours in their central library looking a microfiche copy of the local newsaper for the period we are interested in (This shows that Al Read was headlining).

This gave details of the family, but not the exact address of Hope House. In order to determine this, I found Ken's number in the telephone directory and rang. Jean loved talking about it and was bemused as to what the police were looking for.

I am old enough to remember it all vividly, but find viewing back copies of newspapers at libraries reminds me of contemporary reporting of the case.

Best reports are in the Bedfordshire Times, available to view at Bedford Central Library - these aren't on microfiche, they are the real thing. The main library in most large towns and cities have microfiche copies of local and national newspapers going back over one hundred years. A good source of information.

The standard books on the A6 case are rather short on pictures, this gap is filled with the following three glossy magazines, all available via the second hand book web:

Unsolved Was Hanratty Innocent? Volume 2 Issue 15 (1984)
Murder Casebook ISBN 0 7485 1420 1
Real-Life Crimes ISBN 1 85629 961 9


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#635 24th October 2007, 01:13 PM
BOB
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Hanratty's Arrest

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve

Not too sure that the public had too much of a detailed description of the man being sought by the police.

Nevertheless, you never know - some people are amazingly perceptive.

Bob.


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#636 24th October 2007, 01:30 PM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BOB

It just shows that even in these days of worldwide web and high-speed internet access the local library still has its place when it comes to detailed research of a subject.

I quite agree with you about the lack of photographs which is one reason I have built up my own photo collection of significant Hanratty locations, those that remain of course.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#637 24th October 2007, 03:00 PM
BOB
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Fred, Not Ken

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Slight error in thread number 634.

I found Fred Shellito's name in the Blackpool telephone directory, not Ken.

Bob


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#638 26th October 2007, 09:23 AM
BOB
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Royston Rickard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anybody know of anything to come from Royston Laurence Rickard, the assistant hangman at Hanratty’s execution?

The author of a recent book appears to have had access to the papers and diaries of Harry Allen, the executioner. In the publication, Steve Fielding writes: “Allen always maintained he was convinced of the killer’s guilt and that he walked the last few paces to the gallows with a defiant stare in his eyes.”

Bob


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#639 26th October 2007, 09:31 AM
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Defiant stare or blind terror?


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#640 26th October 2007, 07:08 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Defiant stare or blind terror?


Or his last possible opportunity to show some self-respect?

Albert Pierrepoint always said that Ruth Ellis had an almost casual attitude to her execution - but she never denied her guilt. In fairly recent times, the only execution (as far as I'm aware) that was problemmatical was that of Edith Thompson, and she always maintained her innocence.

Graham

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Graham : 26th October 2007 at 07:14 PM.

[larue]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#641 26th October 2007, 07:14 PM
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Yes, that possibility also!

Innocent or guilty he did well to maintain the British stiff upper lip act to the very end, and for that at least he deserves some admiration.


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#642 26th October 2007, 07:38 PM
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Seems to me that JH was an extremely impressionable and immature young man, who wanted nothing more that to be seen as being on the same level as certain of his peers - that is, the criminal element he knew only too well.
He probably developed the attitude that legitimate work is for creeps, that the only way for a 'man' to earn a living is via crime. In which case, he most certainly wasn't, and isn't, on his own in that respect.

Graham


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#643 26th October 2007, 07:56 PM
Steve
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with that, and have occasionally wondered what I would have thought of Hanratty had I met him before August 1961. (Not at the age I was then, but as a mature observer of people.) One of the books mentions ‘the gentle fugitive,’ Woffinden I think, at the part of the case where Hanratty is apprehended in Blackpool. This doesn’t sit easy with me. I do not see Hanratty as gentle!


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#644 28th October 2007, 08:18 AM
larue
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hi all

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just got to chapter 5 in woffinden's book. i didn't realize that janet gregsten had met valerie storie before the murder. there's quite a lot more interesting things coming to light also.

what's the general opinion of this particular book? pro/anti or neutral? i have not really detected a bias as yet. how accurate and reliable is the information it contains?

now i'm certain you will all know this already, but just in case, follow the link;

http://www.gettyimages.com/Home.aspx

type hanratty in the search box. be patient, this site can be a bit slow on times. shame aboot the watermark, but nevermind.

atb

larue


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#645 28th October 2007, 09:21 PM
Steve
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
what's the general opinion of this particular book? pro/anti or neutral? i have not really detected a bias as yet. how accurate and reliable is the information it contains?


Hello Larue

Woffinden is very much pro-Hanratty, at least he was at the time of writing the book.

General opinion? It's very good, well researched and offers a lot of additional information and background detail.

Accuracy and reliability? He got Hanratty's name completely wrong as pointed out by BOB. Even in the index of his book he refers to him as Hanratty, James Francis. Basic research proves that to be the father's name. Our man was plain James, or Jim, or even Ginger, Hanratty.

However, Woffinden was the first author to quote Mr Acott's name correctly. Everyone else assumed that the full name for Bob Acott was Robert Acott whilst his name was in fact Basil Acott.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#646 28th October 2007, 10:01 PM
Steve
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Mr Acott's Home

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is where Mr Actott lived at the time of the Hanratty investigation. It was a very short stroll from the house to the local railway station for his daily commute to Scotland Yard. He moved here in 1960 from another home further up the hill which must have been quite a climb in those pre-car-ownership days. Mr Acott was still living here at the time of his retirement from the police.
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#647 28th October 2007, 10:04 PM
Steve
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Mr Acott's House

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2007 this house is currently owned by an Indian gentleman and his family, none of whom have ever heard of anyone by the name of Acott!


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#648 28th October 2007, 10:12 PM
Steve
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Mr Acott's House

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This is where Mr Acott lived in the 1950's. The views over the valley from the back of the house are superb, but it's one long walk down to the railway station! Not many people owned cars in those days and the bus service would probably have been much in demand. Downhill going to work would have been OK, but coming home at the end of the day would not have been a laughing matter!
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#649 29th October 2007, 07:46 AM
BOB
Police Constable Join Date: Oct 2007
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Woffinden’s Book

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LARUE

Glad to read that you are getting stuck into Bob Woffinden’s book.

In my opinion, it is by way and far the best of the A6 publications – even though I don’t agree with his stance on the case, or most of his theories and conclusions. The quantity of detailed information is second to none.

You need to be wary of him, like any good advocate, not stating the obvious when it would be to the detriment of his case to do so. E.g. he doesn’t say that the Rhyl witnesses didn’t start to think about events at the height of their season until six months after they happened – but if it was a genuine alibi, then Hanratty would have been trying to recall them in his mind as soon as he learnt he was wanted for the crime, not halfway through his trial. The author also fails to give a plausable reason as to why the defendant went to Blackpool from Liverpool, and didn’t attempt to retrace his supposed movements to Rhyl instead.

There are some minor errors in the book, but no more than one would expect from a work of such magnitude. E.g. on page 55, Woffinden tells his readers that the police first released details to the press on 9th September of what had been discovered under the back seat of the 36A bus, and that this information was deliberately misleading.
However, a reproduction in Real-Life Crimes magazine (ISBN 1 85629 961 9) of the London Evening News front page for August 25th shows that the press knew the exact details of the find by then – and so did the public.

Can’t really criticise Mr Woffinden for any of this. I’m sure that we are all making similar errors in our posts to these threads – possibly even in mine that you are reading now.

Just because his book isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that it isn’t damn good.

Does anybody know how I can get hold of a video or DVD of Woffinden’s TV documentary, Hanratty: The Mystery of Deadman’s Hill?

Bob.


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#650 29th October 2007, 08:55 AM
granger
Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 298




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
Does anybody know how I can get hold of a video or DVD of Woffinden’s TV documentary, Hanratty: The Mystery of Deadman’s Hill?

Bob.


Hi Bob: If you have any problems locating this documentary, may I recommend this excellent UK web site forum. It takes minutes to join, and I would suggest that you post your query under 'Looking for Video/DVD (TV). If you don't want to bother joining, I would be quite happy making a posting on your behalf. In my experience, someone will have a copy.

http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/

'Granger'

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Last edited by granger : 29th October 2007 at 08:58 AM.

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#651 29th October 2007, 10:56 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
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Hanratty's Behaviour At The End

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Hi Steve

I agree that Hanratty did well to maintain the British stiff upper lip when facing his dreadful end.

I would have beed more impressed though, if he had beed dragged screaming and kicking to the scaffold after admitting his guilt and thus preventing the wasted years of anguish endured by his parents and eldest brother.

Bob


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#652 29th October 2007, 11:19 AM
Steve
Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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Hello Bob

Yes, an admission of guilt would have saved his family from a lot of anguish over the years, and not just his parents and Michael. Incidentally, Michael was not the eldest brother, James Junior was older than him, and there are two other younger Hanratty brothers, Richard and Peter.

Superintendent Acott thought that Hanratty’s mother believed her son could have been guilty of the murder. Although the priests who were with him to the end said that he never once wavered in his claim of innocence.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#653 29th October 2007, 06:51 PM
Victor
Sergeant Join Date: May 2006
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Has anyone seen the news recently with all the suspisions about low copy number DNA tests expecially as it relates to the Omagh Bombings?

It reminded me instantly of this case...
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"Tonight you presume too much..."


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#654 31st October 2007, 08:51 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
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What Can We Read Into It?

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Not a mind boggling coincidence by A6 standards, but it may start a thread or two.

Janet Gregsten gave birth to their second son, Anthony, whilst her husband was having an affair with Valerie Storie. Val lived, and still does, in Anthony Way.

Incidentally, Mike was cremated, so it wouldn’t be possible to obtain a sample of his DNA.

Bob



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#655 1st November 2007, 02:37 PM
maverick20054
Police Constable Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2


JH's confessions

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Regarding JH making confessions, have a look at the following – probably the longest link known to man but worth a read!!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/archive/2002/05/25/i-would-rather-his-family-didn-t-read-this-but-here-is-the-awful-truth-about-the-awful-james-hanratty-89520-11900783/

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#656 2nd November 2007, 10:58 AM
BOB
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Granger - Thanks

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granger

Thanks for your reply. I will try my luck. Will contact you if I get stuck - I'm a bit of a technophobe.

Regards
Bob


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#657 2nd November 2007, 11:01 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 36


Lord Gorman

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Has anybody heard of any comments made by William Gorman on the case, either official or otherwise?

Is his trial report in the public domain?

Apart from reading Fenton Bresler’s classic 1965 analysis of the subject quite a few years ago, I know next to nothing about the workings of the reprieve system.

Common sense, however, suggests that if the trial judge had the level of misgivings about the jury’s verdict that some commentators would have us believe, then a reprieve would have been highly probable.

What powers did Gorman have to stop the trial and order an acquittal on the grounds that he believed the defence had no case to answer?

Was the position similar to when the Appeal Judges halted the proceedings after Sherrard had presented Hanratty’s case, directing that the Crown had nothing to respond to?

Bob


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#658 2nd November 2007, 10:19 PM
Graham
Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: West Midlands
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People,

I am not personally religious, but I try to respect the religious beliefs of others, and I find it difficult to accept that, even in the case of James Hanratty, the secrecy of the confessional would be abused. Of course, it may well be that the priest administering to JH's needs was not actually bound by the strictures of the confessional, but I suspect that he was, given that JH came from a Catholic family. I can't really accept that JH's confessor would compromise himself by betraying JH's last words.

Regarding any possible comments about the case made by Mr Justice Gorman, I don't think that it's legal etiquette for a High Court judge to make comments about his past cases. Observers at the trial were unanimous in their praise of Gorman's impartiality and fairness, and also his apparent shock when the jury returned a guilty verdict. I myself served on a jury when the judge stopped the trial because of lack of credible (in this case) defence evidence, and I suspect that Gorman would have acted in the same way had he seen reasons for doing so.

Finally, and I repeat what I've said before, I believe that Hanratty went into some kind of 'denial mode', in which he failed to perceive the enormity of what he had done, and (possibly) failed even to remember his actions on the fateful night.

Incidentally, anyone reading the books by Foot and Woffinded should also read Leonard Miller's book, which basically looks at the case from the opposite viewpoint, i.e., Hanratty's guilt.

Cheers,

Graham


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#659 5th November 2007, 07:45 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
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Peter Alphon

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Peter Louis Alphon was first brought into the A6 case as a result of the strange goings-on in room 97 of the Alexandra Court Hotel at 330 – 340 Seven Sisters Road. Putting this in context, his behaviour had been anything but normal for the preceding fifteen years or so.

At the time of the murder, Alphon was obsessed with non-mainstream religion and politics. These subjects dominated his thoughts and discussions to such an extent that he was incapable of establishing and maintaining normal interpersonal relationships. He even asked Acott during the interrogation at New Scotland Yard about the Superintendent’s leanings.

Would it have been possible for this person to spend over five hours with Gregsten and Storie without even broaching the subjects, let alone asking outright about their persuasions?

Moreover, after the assault on Miss Storie, the gunman said “You have not had much sex, have you?”

If Alphon had been the assailant, the chances are that Valerie would have said that to him.

The victim’s account of this sordid bit of dialogue can be found in Lord Russell of Liverpool’s book (p 25).
Gunman – “You have not had much sex, have you?”
Valerie – “Can I put my knickers back on?”
Gunman – “Yes”

In my opinion, it is not realistic to suggest Alphon was pretending to be Hanratty as part of a conspiracy to frame him. For this to be a viable idea, the conspirators would have needed to know for certain in advance where Hanratty was going to be at the crucial time – and that this wouldn’t provide him with a good alibi.

It seems pointless planning to set somebody up, who, for all the plotters knew, was considering visiting the local priest for a confessional at the critical time – this would have provided a perfect alibi.

Hatching a plot to implicate an innocent Hanratty after the crime would have been fraught with the same type of problems. His associates thought he had the cast iron alibi of being tucked up in bed at his auntie’s house in Liverpool whilst dastardly deeds were being committed on Deadman’s Hill.

Bob




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#660 7th November 2007, 08:13 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 36


The Hawser Report

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The Hawser Report is possibly the most elusive of the A6 books.

It is a Home Office publication, titled “The Case of James Hanratty”

Published in 1975, Cmnd 6021. ISBN 0 10 160210 3

It cost £1 on those days.

If anybody is interested in getting a copy, they could do worse than using Bollandbooks.com This crime book specialist runs a web site that allows a person to register their interest in a publication. He contacts them when a copy is in stock, and makes an offer. The price is dependent on the condition of the book he has managed to obtain.

He got a copy for me before going web based, it took about three months. I can’t remember how much he charged.

Leslie Bolland lives in Bedfordshire, and is interested in the A6 case.

Bob.

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#661 7th November 2007, 03:57 PM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 36


Old Station Inn Web Site

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This URL may interest anyone looking for a bit of history about The Old Station Inn.

http://www.maidenhead.net/history/old-stn.html

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#662 10th November 2007, 09:15 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
This URL may interest anyone looking for a bit of history about The Old Station Inn.

http://www.maidenhead.net/history/old-stn.html

BOB (and Steve),

Have you ever ventured behind where the Old Station Inn stood, access being via the long lay-by where lorries park? That is a very, very eerie place.
The last time I was there (few years ago now) there were some trailers parked there with the logo 'Lanz Transport' or something very similar - the same name as the Mary Lanz who was the proprietor of the Inn at the time of the A6 Murder. There must be a connection, one would think.

Woffinden remarks that the Inn was used as a setting for a Miss Marple movie (starring Margaret Rutherford, which dates the film). I drove past it on a number of occasions, but never went in. I never knew that that there really was an 'old station' until I read BOB's link.

Cheers,

Graham


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#663 12th November 2007, 07:51 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
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Hope House

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Hi Graham

You asked about Hope House in Blackpool.

Jean Shellito booked Hanratty into the guest house at about 10.30pm on the evening of his arrest.

He was allocated room 5, and after paying 12s 6d, he left to find a place to eat, ending up at Stevonia.

From this you can probably deduce that it wasn’t The Hilton.

Jean says that Hanratty was very softly spoken. This is vitally important, because it was this aspect of his speech in combination with the accent and prononciation that gave the total vocal element which helped convince Valerie Storie that number six on the identity parade was the man. The voice recognition wasn’t on dialect alone.

On the subject of the price of hotel rooms, have you ever thought it strange that in Nudds’s second statement he claims to have told Alphon that although the standard price for bed and breakfast at the Vienna was £1 7s 6d, the charge for occupying a large room such as number 24 would be £2 15s. Yet the day before, Hanratty had only paid £1 7s 6d as the sole occupant of this room.

Moreover, on 30th August 1961, Vigan Rapur was moved from room 24 to 25 after spending about five minutes in the large room before the smaller single one unexpectedly became free. Mr. Rapur was also only going to be charged £1 7s 6d to sleep in room 24 by himself.

Bob



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#664 12th November 2007, 11:31 PM
Graham
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
Hi Graham

You asked about Hope House in Blackpool.

Jean Shellito booked Hanratty into the guest house at about 10.30pm on the evening of his arrest.

He was allocated room 5, and after paying 12s 6d, he left to find a place to eat, ending up at Stevonia.

From this you can probably deduce that it wasn’t The Hilton.

Jean says that Hanratty was very softly spoken. This is vitally important, because it was this aspect of his speech in combination with the accent and prononciation that gave the total vocal element which helped convince Valerie Storie that number six on the identity parade was the man. The voice recognition wasn’t on dialect alone.

On the subject of the price of hotel rooms, have you ever thought it strange that in Nudds’s second statement he claims to have told Alphon that although the standard price for bed and breakfast at the Vienna was £1 7s 6d, the charge for occupying a large room such as number 24 would be £2 15s. Yet the day before, Hanratty had only paid £1 7s 6d as the sole occupant of this room.

Moreover, on 30th August 1961, Vigan Rapur was moved from room 24 to 25 after spending about five minutes in the large room before the smaller single one unexpectedly became free. Mr. Rapur was also only going to be charged £1 7s 6d to sleep in room 24 by himself.

Bob



Hi Bob,

I'd guess that your information about Hope House comes from a newspaper report? Apart from Jean Shillito's name I don't recall reading anything about JH's Blackpool b&b.

Re: JH's voice, anyone who's seen the BBC news films of Alphon's interviews wouldn't describe him as 'very soft-spoken'. He had a strident, confident delivery. All of which, of course, supports Valerie Storey's identification. I get the impression that Alphon would just never shut up.

Re: the price of the large room at The Vienna, unless I'm mistaken wasn't Hanratty originally told (by Nudds) that he may have had to share the room? With a women as well, if I remember aright! That person never arrived, so doubtless Nudds kept his end of the deal and charged JH only the £1/7/6 they'd agreed on. Maybe Mr Rapur also shared, or was told he might have had to share. Incidentally, a small comment on the times - the first TV Mr Rapur (from India) had ever seen in his life was at The Vienna!

I've never been convinced that The Vienna was quite the dump some writers maintain it was. Maybe it wasn't The Ritz, but I'm sure it wasn't a damp-ridden rat-infested doss-house. Another small comment on the mores of the day - Alphon, when he had the money, stayed at good-class hotels, but wasn't above kipping under Southend Pier when he was skint!

Cheers,

Graham


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#665 13th November 2007, 07:57 PM
Steve
Inspector Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Coast of England
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The Vienna Hotel

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Hi Graham & Bob

The room rate at The Vienna was not cheap by the standards of the day, so I suspect that Graham is right that it wasn’t exactly a complete doss house. However, I don’t think it could be called a luxurious hotel! Don’t forget in those days hotels didn’t have televisions in the rooms, just perhaps a guests’ sitting room with a television tuned to The BBC, and few hotels offered en-suite bathrooms.

The hotel that Alphon was staying in at the time he met Jean Justice was certainly a good standard hotel, the Arial on Bath Road opposite Heathrow Airport. I stayed there many times in the early 1980’s when it was part of the Trusthouse Forte Group and I think it was at that time a 3 or 4 star hotel and certainly had both television and en-suite in the bedrooms. But of course at that time Alphon was ‘in the money!’

Kind regards,
Steve


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#666 15th November 2007, 08:37 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
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Alphon’s Voice

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Graham

Couldn’t agree with you more. Some commentators emphasise the similarities in Hanratty’s and Alphon’s respective accents and pronunciation, totally ignoring the voice. It was the combination of all three elements that Miss Storie took into account at the identity parade.

I visited Slough for the first time in a couple of years this week. Didn’t see any Lanz Transport lorries near the site where the Old Station Inn stood, but did notice that a certain house in Cippenham has now got “KEEP CLEAR” road markings on the road directly outside, they extend to the other semi that the house is attached to.

Bob


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#667 16th November 2007, 08:50 PM
Graham
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB
Graham

Couldn’t agree with you more. Some commentators emphasise the similarities in Hanratty’s and Alphon’s respective accents and pronunciation, totally ignoring the voice. It was the combination of all three elements that Miss Storie took into account at the identity parade.

I visited Slough for the first time in a couple of years this week. Didn’t see any Lanz Transport lorries near the site where the Old Station Inn stood, but did notice that a certain house in Cippenham has now got “KEEP CLEAR” road markings on the road directly outside, they extend to the other semi that the house is attached to.

Bob


Hi Bob.

By all accounts, JH was indeed softly spoken, but with a definite working-class, somewhat mumbling, London accent (which, I have to say, to Midlanders such as I is all but unintelligible. As an example, I simply cannot understand what ex-footballer Ian Wright is saying when they let him loose on TV as a 'pundit'.). Alphon had what I'd call a 'southern accent', rather than Cockney - not unpleasant, but with elongated vowels and the hint of a nasal whine. I am sure that anyone, Valerie Storie included, could easily tell the difference.

I just Googled 'Lanz Transport', and there is indeed such a company still operating out of Slough. I'd say that there must be a connection with Mary Lanz of The Old Station Inn.

Cheers,

Graham


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#668 16th November 2007, 09:48 PM
larue
Sergeant Join Date: Apr 2007
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi all

well guys, it's been eight weeks since i mailed michael sherrard, but sadly no reply. i guess that idea is a non-starter then.

as an aside, last week, driving across worcester, i saw an suv going t'other way. the registration number??? A6 DNA. spooky eh?

don't belong to anyone here, or does it?????

atb

larue


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#669 16th November 2007, 09:58 PM
Graham
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi all

well guys, it's been eight weeks since i mailed michael sherrard, but sadly no reply. i guess that idea is a non-starter then.

as an aside, last week, driving across worcester, i saw an suv going t'other way. the registration number??? A6 DNA. spooky eh?

don't belong to anyone here, or does it?????

atb

larue


Hiya Larue

I'm not totally surprised that you haven't so far received a response from Michael Sherrard, but don't write it off just yet. My cousin has been waiting three months for a reply from her solicitor about a house-sale.... Sherrard has never declined to comment about the A6 Case, so far as I'm aware, so give him time...

A6 DNA? Whooo-hooo! Not mine, mate!

Cheers,

Graham


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#670 19th November 2007, 07:45 AM
BOB
Sergeant Join Date: Oct 2007
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Ingledene

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Bit of information for anybody who is considering visiting Rhyl for the first time.

In 1962, Ingledene was number 19 Kinmel Street. In August 1967 the houses were renumbered and Mrs. Jones’s B&B became number 60, which it still is today.

Remember that James Hanratty never actually claimed to have stayed at this specific establishment.

I am intrigued by the idea of a reverse identity parade, with Hanratty trying to pick Grace Jones out from a line of a dozen grey haired, middle aged women.

If his luck was in, he would have asked them to speak, and Mrs. Jones would be the only one with a Welsh accent.

Bob