Mrs Dinwoodie

[Graham]

Yes indeed, Nick. Mrs D was initially viewed as Jim's saviour, and more than one poster here, years ago, seemed quite confident that everything she said was God's honest truth and that she'd met Jim in her shop on the Tuesday but her testimony had been unfairly rubbished. I think her evidence merely muddied the waters.

My late father was a witness in a trial many years ago. He witnessed what was eventually a fatal road accident, and the prosecution called him to relate what he saw. He told us later that he simply answered the brief's questions as honestly and as accurately as he knew, but the defence counsel laid into him like a mad dog. The old man said he very nearly lost it, but kept his temper (difficult for him), and eventually the defendant was found guilty of death by dangerous driving, or whatever, and sent down. The courtroom during a trial is as no other place on earth, and until you've experienced it you'll have no idea what it's like.

Graham

[NickB]

Graham,

I was interested to read the experiences you and Alfie had of being a juror. I have not been a juror but I was a witness ...

I was asked if I could see the defendant "anywhere in this room". There was no helpful Sherrard to show me a photo, and no dock - so I had to look around at everyone in the courtroom. Eventually I recognised him, even though he had grown a beard!

The way that Jim changed his description of the sweetshop location and what happened there shows that Kleinman was feeding him back information that allowed his account to be closer to Mrs D's.

One interesting aspect of this forum is how the attitude to her evidence has changed over the years. It uswe to be assumed that she was helpful to Jim and that it was easy to see that her belief it was the Monday was mistaken. But when you look at what she actually said it was unhelpful.

[Graham]

I just more or less accidentally dropped on this thread, which I don't recall seeing when it was 'live'. Just a couple of quick points, if I may:

1] Same as Mrs Grace Jones in Rhyl, Mrs Dinwoodie was shown just the one photo by the officer who called on her - that of James Hanratty. I strongly suspect that both she and Mrs Jones, had they been shown a selection of photos of different men, would not have picked out Hanratty.

2] I agree with NickB that it's unlikely that Aspinall existed. Neither Woffo nor Foot mention the name. Hanratty said that his fence in Liverpool was one Terry McNally, who lived in a flat near the Bull Ring, if I remember correctly. I feel strongly that the name 'Tarleton Street' or similar existed only in Mrs Dinwoodie's memory, and it was put there, to give her the benefit of the doubt, by a caller to her shop who was not James Hanratty.

3] Hanratty stated, and McNally confirmed it, that he knew McNally from his 'stay' in Lewes prison. He claimed to have stayed with McNally for 3 nights during his Liverpool visit, but McNally stated that he had not met Hanratty since they were both in Lewes prison. Obviously, this shot down Hanratty's original 'Liverpool Alibi', which he rapidly altered to the 'Rhyl Alibi'. And effectively lost his case. Had he continued to insist upon his 'Liverpool Alibi', I still feel that it might just have been accepted by the jury - but obviously no guarantee of that.

Graham

[OneRound]

Those are good points. I think checks must have been made and Aspinall would have been identified had he existed.

Even if he did exist, what I have never understood is how Hanratty could have located him. The streets in Liverpool include 2 Carltons, 2 Talbots and several streets (eg Tarlton) which sound something like each. Did he intend visiting each one and asking around for Aspinall the fence?

Thanks, Nick.

Being very charitable towards Hanratty, I suppose he may not have realised how many similarly sounding streets there were in Liverpool when he headed there. By the same token, he might have thought that once he got the street he would get the man. He did seem to only consider problems when they arose rather than anticipating them.

Best regards,

OneRound

[NickB]

Those are good points. I think checks must have been made and Aspinall would have been identified had he existed.

Even if he did exist, what I have never understood is how Hanratty could have located him. The streets in Liverpool include 2 Carltons, 2 Talbots and several streets (eg Tarlton) which sound something like each. Did he intend visiting each one and asking around for Aspinall the fence?

[OneRound]

I don't think anyone believed Aspinall existed.

Hi Nick - given Hanratty claimed to have been in prison with Aspinall, I would have expected this to have been checked this with the prison authorities. True or false, the result would have helped one side. I'm surprised if no such check was carried out.

Best regards,

OneRound

[GUT]

GUT - you seem to suggest that changing one's mind is a bad thing. Surely it's better to come to a forum prepared to listen than act like a braying donkey.

OneRound

Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but don't expect people to know you have and start braying when they answer you first post.

[NickB]

please explain further about this.

His original statement to the defence in October appears to have changed to fit in with Mrs D’s version of the visit. Originally he talked about things like Mrs D walking him to the door and giving him instructions. If he had repeated this in court it would have been apparent that the encounter described was not the same one Mrs D then described.

Incidentally (going off on a tangent) I have read that the Hanratty family did not attend court when Jim gave evidence*. As Mrs D's evidence immediately followed his, I suppose this means they did not see her evidence either.

http://www.hotpress.com/politics/frontlines/theGREATEST-INJUSTICE-of-all/392670.html

* This is from the article linked to above where Michael says:
“The only day we didn’t go to the trial was when Jimmy was giving evidence. Michael Sherrard, his barrister, said Jimmy would be able to concentrate better, because he was always smiling and winking at us and telling us not to worry.”

[Derrick]

...Acott being cross-examined about Mrs D's evidence at the committal...

please explain further about this.

[NickB]

I don't think anyone believed Aspinall existed.

[OneRound]

Hi Nick - did Aspinall at any time live in Talbot / Carlton Road or anywhere else in Liverpool sounding at all similar?

If he did, it is even more of a coincidence if someone other than Hanratty should be asking for it.

If he didn't, why was Hanratty asking where it was?

Apologies if covered in the books but I don't have access to them currently.

Many thanks,

OneRound

[NickB]

That leaves us with the quandary over Hanratty mentioning asking for Tarleton Road.

But at first Hanratty did not mention Tarleton Road. The notes that Natalie obtained show that what he told Kleinman about Aspinall was: “In Lewes he’d given me his address as Talbot or Carlton Road, Liverpool.” This ties in with the Appeal (section 54) which says Kleinman submitted a written statement that the road names Hanratty said he asked for were Carlton and Talbot.

"Talbot or Carlton" had morphed into "Carlton or Tarleton" by the time Hanratty gave evidence. By then he had witnessed Acott being cross-examined about Mrs D's evidence at the committal and earlier in the trial.

I don't believe that Hanratty sought to buy an alibi as ludicrously put forward by the prosecution.

I believe he sought to buy an alibi. I don't know how else you can explain his reason for going to Liverpool - to "see if these people would stand by my alibi". Whether he obtained one is another question.

[OneRound]

That leaves us with the quandary over Hanratty mentioning asking for Tarleton Road in a sweetshop in Scotland Road on the Tuesday and Mrs Dinwoodie corroborating a man asking for the non-existent Tarleton Road and resembling Hanratty.

Hanratty was plainly in London all of the previous day (Monday 21st) as proved by the Crown.

I don't believe that Hanratty sought to buy an alibi as ludicrously put forward by the prosecution.

I believe Mrs Dinwoodie was mistaken as to the correct day; she became ill that Tuesday evening.

Del

Hi Del - one of the issues for me with the sweet shop alibi is that whilst it goes into some commendable detail, that is at variance with the vague way in which Hanratty describes the other events of that day and who else he encountered then.

It comes across to me that what happened in the shop is all that Hanratty has any confidence in talking about. It's almost like he just materialised there and departed in similar fashion. Is that because it was the only memorable thing on the Tuesday that he could recall or was it because it was the only attempted alibi he could obtain?

As flagged by Nick, there's also the matter of David Cowley's brother being in the shop on the Tuesday. Wouldn't he have been the first person that Mrs D would have asked about the whereabouts of Tarleton Road?

Best regards,

OneRound

[OneRound]

Ohh and I answer posts as I come to them I don't read every post then go back reading them again to answer them, just in case someone changed their mind.

GUT - you seem to suggest that changing one's mind is a bad thing. Surely it's better to come to a forum prepared to listen than act like a braying donkey.

OneRound

[GUT]

Ohh and I answer posts as I come to them I don't read every post then go back reading them again to answer them, just in case someone changed their mind.