The Mayerling Affair

[Ginger]

It looks as though a legitimate suicide note from Mary Vetsera has finally been found: http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37762

[Pcdunn]

That was an interesting link, thanks. Too bad they ignored Mary's last request about her burial, though.

[belinda]

Thank You for that link. There was no way poor little Mary would ever have been buried next to Rudolf. Franz Josef would never have allowed that.

[Mayerling]

Thank You for that link. There was no way poor little Mary would ever have been buried next to Rudolf. Franz Josef would never have allowed that.

You are right. The old Emperor would have not wanted it because it would have spelled the end of his other attempts at cover-up. Interesting thing is that I doubt if the Hapsburg Family would allow it today, as the subject is rather still scandalous to them.

I've read up on the scandal (which is why I chose it for my nom-de-plume for this website: the Mayerling Scandal was the next big one after the Whitechapel Murders Mystery (1888, 1889)). Actually I don't think highly of Rudolf's so-called "liberalism". Constantly at odds with Franz Josef he used the politics to goad his father. There is little real evidence that if push came to shove he would not have fundamentally changed state policy (although Bismarck suspected him as a "liberal" because of the Iron Chancellor's problem with Crown Prince turned Emperor Friedrich III of Germany, who was a liberal).

Also I have a degree of sympathy for Franz Josef. Nobody ever doubted his belief in his duties to his subjects and his personal courage. He actually had appeared on battlefields in the war in Italy in 1859-60. But he knew his only son, wayward but still beloved, died a coward. Rudolf shot and killed Maria first and when the others came to his rooms he answered the door (not admitting them) and said nothing was wrong. They went back to bed. Rudolf spent the next five hours looking at Maria's body, and doing nothing. It was like he kept thinking Franz Joseph and Elisabeth would come in and say everything would be taken care of by them. After five hours he realized it was finished. Then he shot himself at last.

Jeff

[Rosella]

People who die prematurely before they reach power are often regarded as 'the hope of the country', aren't they? Robert Kennedy certainly was one, Prince Henry, the future King Charles I's elder brother, another. People muse about how different things would have been had they come to the throne/Presidency.

Of course Franz Josef was a very long-lived individual. If his son had been impelled to wait until 1916 to succeed there is nothing he could have done to stop the First World War from breaking out. Rudolf did dislike Kaiser William so there may have been a chance that, if he had become Emperor in say the mid-1890's, he wouldn't have bound his country so closely to Germany. I'd like to think so.

There were so many things wrong with Rudolf prior to his death. He was physically ill, suffering from the side effects of medication used for his syphilis, and also appears to have been suffering from severe depression, culminating in a death wish. Rudolf didn't get on with his father, relations with his mother were quite strained. He and Stephanie were stuck in a loveless marriage with no hope of more children.

His future obviously seemed pretty grim. However, it's strange isn't it, that having killed Marie, Rudolf couldn't quite bring himself to commit the final act for several hours. So, yes, at the end he was a coward.

[sdreid]

I see that Wiki lists 20 media versions of the case and they don't include Fright from 1956 which seems to be inspired by the events albeit via reincarnation.

[GUT]

I am so disappointed, I thought this was a thread about what Jeff's been up to.

[Mayerling]

People who die prematurely before they reach power are often regarded as 'the hope of the country', aren't they? Robert Kennedy certainly was one, Prince Henry, the future King Charles I's elder brother, another. People muse about how different things would have been had they come to the throne/Presidency.

Of course Franz Josef was a very long-lived individual. If his son had been impelled to wait until 1916 to succeed there is nothing he could have done to stop the First World War from breaking out. Rudolf did dislike Kaiser William so there may have been a chance that, if he had become Emperor in say the mid-1890's, he wouldn't have bound his country so closely to Germany. I'd like to think so.

There were so many things wrong with Rudolf prior to his death. He was physically ill, suffering from the side effects of medication used for his syphilis, and also appears to have been suffering from severe depression, culminating in a death wish. Rudolf didn't get on with his father, relations with his mother were quite strained. He and Stephanie were stuck in a loveless marriage with no hope of more children.

His future obviously seemed pretty grim. However, it's strange isn't it, that having killed Marie, Rudolf couldn't quite bring himself to commit the final act for several hours. So, yes, at the end he was a coward.

Hi Rosella,

You can also add John Kennedy Jr. to that list of prematurely dead "possibilities". At least John-John's uncle Robert had shown his abilities as Attorney General and a U.S. Senator. John-John only showed his interest in journalism with his briefly published magazine "George".

Relations between Rudolf (and his father) with "Sisi" were always bewildering, but mostly due to Sisi herself. The Empress was a Wittlesbach, being of the Bavarian Royal Family (her closest friend until his mysterious death in 1886 was King Ludwig II of Bavaria, the castle builder). She may have had some of that family's eccentricities. She certainly was not always faithful to Franz Josef, as she had at least one affair (with Andrassy, the Hungarian statesman who set up the Dual-Monarchy solution of 1867). But then Franz Josef would have a long standing friendship with the actress Katerina Schratt, so one could not really cast stones here. Sisi spent most of her time as empress (especially from the 1870s onward) just travelling throughout Europe, spending most of her time in England. Indeed, when an anarchist (or self-advertised anarchist) Lucceni stabbed her to death in Switzerland she was heading for a steamer to continue her permanent perambulations.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

I am so disappointed, I thought this was a thread about what Jeff's been up to.

G'day GUT,

Well, let's see. I went grocery shopping today spending $65.00 on various items. On Friday, I had the pleasure of taking my niece Rachel out to dinner (her summer internship has ended) to Katz's Delicatessen in lower Manhattan. Rachel likes eating there. She, her sister Hayley, and their parents will be travelling to Chicago, Cleveland, and Toronto to catch some baseball games of the Cubs, Indians, and Blue Jays (who have just trounced the Yankees in three games this weekend). They will also see my nephew and his wife who have just been lucky enough to have a son born last week (making your's truly a great-uncle). So there have been interesting events going on. I am curious to see how long before somebody effectively silences a certain loudmouth billionaire with political aspirations at last (I would like somebody to tell him effectively, "You're fired!").

Is that enough on me and my preoccupations?

Jeff

[GUT]

G'day GUT,

Well, let's see. I went grocery shopping today spending $65.00 on various items. On Friday, I had the pleasure of taking my niece Rachel out to dinner (her summer internship has ended) to Katz's Delicatessen in lower Manhattan. Rachel likes eating there. She, her sister Hayley, and their parents will be travelling to Chicago, Cleveland, and Toronto to catch some baseball games of the Cubs, Indians, and Blue Jays (who have just trounced the Yankees in three games this weekend). They will also see my nephew and his wife who have just been lucky enough to have a son born last week (making your's truly a great-uncle). So there have been interesting events going on. I am curious to see how long before somebody effectively silences a certain loudmouth billionaire with political aspirations at last (I would like somebody to tell him effectively, "You're fired!").

Is that enough on me and my preoccupations?

Jeff

Well sounds more exciting than my life anyway.

Nieces are special in my opinion.

I thought I heard that said loudmouth billionaire had been fired?

[Rosella]

The Empress Elizabeth was neurotic, I believe. She and Franz Josef should never have married. I don't think she was capable of making anyone happy really, and her restlessness made her a very unsatisfactory consort, beautiful though she was.

I'm very glad to read that you are active and well. I am amazed that even after the Republican 'debate' on Fox, this buffoon mentioned in your post continues to pretend that he seriously is in the presidential race. Even more amazing, not to mention horrific, are the numbers that seemingly would be prepared to vote for him. (It says a lot for the rest of the Republican candidates, doesn't it?) Perhaps the majority of these potential voters are just having a joke on the pollsters. Surely he will drop out soon, this farce can't go on into next year, can it?

[Mayerling]

Well sounds more exciting than my life anyway.

Nieces are special in my opinion.

I thought I heard that said loudmouth billionaire had been fired?

No such luck about anyone firing him so far.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

The Empress Elizabeth was neurotic, I believe. She and Franz Josef should never have married. I don't think she was capable of making anyone happy really, and her restlessness made her a very unsatisfactory consort, beautiful though she was.

I'm very glad to read that you are active and well. I am amazed that even after the Republican 'debate' on Fox, this buffoon mentioned in your post continues to pretend that he seriously is in the presidential race. Even more amazing, not to mention horrific, are the numbers that seemingly would be prepared to vote for him. (It says a lot for the rest of the Republican candidates, doesn't it?) Perhaps the majority of these potential voters are just having a joke on the pollsters. Surely he will drop out soon, this farce can't go on into next year, can it?

No doubt she was neurotic, but Franz Josef apparently really loved her - it was one of many tragedies for that man (Rudolf, his brother Maximillian in Mexico, Sisi's assassination, the 1866 humiliation from Prussia, Franz Ferdinand's morganatic marriage, and then his assassination with his wife Sophie, and then the World War). There is something really remarkable that the old Emperor kept at the job so long, when a lesser man would have given it up. Remember that he had been chosen (in 1848) to replaced the mentally ill Emperor Ferdinand on the throne. Supposedly the 18 year old Franz Josef said "Farewell my youth!" when that happened. It could have been "Farewell my happiness" for all that.

I am disgusted by the weak - kneed response of the alternative candidates from Jeb Bush down (except for that spunky female Senator who laced into Trump for that stupid "blood" remark). Most of these idiots keep thinking that the strength of the Republican Party is it's unity - when it throws unity aside (like in 1912 between Theodore Roosevelt and the incumbent President William Howard Taft) it falls on it's face. But there are moments when unity has to stand aside. Trump is basically extorting from the Republicans that they shut up and let him continue on his merry path, or he will dump them and run on a third party (as TR did in 1912 as a "Bull Moose" or "Progressive" candidate). They are weaseling (at this moment, anyway) along that route, and most onlookers are finding the whole pack less and less digestible. Of course something may alter this - but first they have to silence or humiliate the Donald.

It think there is a way of doing it - look at his boasted success as a businessman and entrepreneur, and show how true it is. I don't think it's true. He had several hotels/casinos that he helped build, and that made him CEO, and they went into chapter 11. This is a matter of record. When confronted by a reporter about this his response was "I was made CEO by these hotel companies due to my business abilities!" Well, if so, why did they go belly up? Apparently his abilities were not that hot!

He keeps pointing to being a graduate of the Wharton School of Business (as are his kids). What were his grades? What was his standing in the graduating class of his year? I graduated from New York Law School, and I did not do very well scholastically (I was three from the bottom). Was Trump on top, or at the bottom? And it is crap that his kids went there and graduated. If Wharton is like other institutes of higher learning, it will welcome the children of old graduates (with large purses to assist the institutes of higher learning) and possibly graduate them "with honors".

What are his business ethics like? Is he like Warren Buffett, or is he like Charles Ponzi? I suspect closer to the second, but he has managed to avoid really close scrutiny. A loud, insulting voice helps - so does use of money to bribe silence out of critics. I would not put it past him.

Even his television show is suspect. Of those he finally hired as "apprentices", how many worked for him until right now? How many left after five years, three years, two years, one year, less than one year? This should be clarified and they should speak up (unless he bribed or threatened them not to speak up).

In short go after his economic throat. That is how you shut him up.

Jeff

[belinda]

Elisabeth wrote at one point that she had been sold as a girl of sixteen she didn't want to marry Franz Joseph she was not even the intended bride he was supposed to marry her elder sister Helene. Their mothers were sisters and forced the marriage but Elisabeth never got on with her Aunt/Mother in law they clashed over almost everything especially as her children were taken from her almost as soon as they were born as she was considered too young to look after them. The child she was most attached to was her youngest daughter Marie Valerie. She had difficult relationships with Gisela and Rudolf she also never got over the loss of another daughter at two years old. She probably suffered from depression which ran in the Wittelsbach family