Elsie Frost 1965

[Rob63]

Just came across a link for this unsolved murder on another site. A bit odd that the file is closed for so long ?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils/r/C6145409

Another closed file on the same case http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C10879094

A bit on the murder here....https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...murder&f=false

Anybody come across this case before, or know something extra ?

[Rob63]

An interview with her brother and sister recently....http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ny7v9

[Rob63]

So no one is even slightly intrigued as to why the files on an unsolved murder of a 14 year old girl in 1965 have been locked for 92 years ?

[Limehouse]

Hi Rob,

I think, because the main suspect was not charged or was acquitted, it is not unusual for the case files to be closed for so long.

I am surprised there has not been more publicity about this case considering the victim was so young and the attack so violent.

[John G]

Hi Rob,

My understanding is that there was no evidence against the main suspect, apart from the fact that he turned up at the inquest and gave statements that were seemingly inconsistent with other witnesses. For instance, he claimed to at home at a time when four witnesses said they saw him near to murder scene.

However, I doubt that he was the killer; I mean, why would he voluntarily come forward and give evidence at the inquest if he was involved? Most likely a publicity seeker. What is interesting is that this crime took place in West Yorkshire, where Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, was active during the 1970s. No doubt a coincidence, however it's worth noting that one of his victims, who survived, was a 14 year old girl, who he attacked down a quiet country lane. And although he was only 19 in 1965 he had a criminal conviction that year for breaking into cars. By 1969 he was caught in possession of a hammer by the police and subsequently admitted that he fully intended to kill that night.

[Limehouse]

Hi Rob,

My understanding is that there was no evidence against the main suspect, apart from the fact that he turned up at the inquest and gave statements that were seemingly inconsistent with other witnesses. For instance, he claimed to at home at a time when four witnesses said they saw him near to murder scene.

However, I doubt that he was the killer; I mean, why would he voluntarily come forward and give evidence at the inquest if he was involved? Most likely a publicity seeker. What is interesting is that this crime took place in West Yorkshire, where Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, was active during the 1970s. No doubt a coincidence, however it's worth noting that one of his victims, who survived, was a 14 year old girl, who he attacked down a quiet country lane. And although he was only 19 in 1965 he had a criminal conviction that year for breaking into cars. By 1969 he was caught in possession of a hammer by the police and subsequently admitted that he fully intended to kill that night.

Hi John,

I had the same thoughts about Peter Sutcliffe except, like you, I thought it was a bit early for him. The 'official' line is that he started hitting women over the head with rocks in a sock around 1969. He then progressed to using a hammer. He may have thought that carrying a hammer was less risky than being caught carrying a knife as a hammer could be claimed to be necessary for one's occupation.

[John G]

Hi John,

I had the same thoughts about Peter Sutcliffe except, like you, I thought it was a bit early for him. The 'official' line is that he started hitting women over the head with rocks in a sock around 1969. He then progressed to using a hammer. He may have thought that carrying a hammer was less risky than being caught carrying a knife as a hammer could be claimed to be necessary for one's occupation.

Hi Limehouse,

I've just been rereading Michael Bilton's book. What is interesting is that Sutcliffe's criminal career started in 1963 when he received a minor traffic conviction. However, by 1965 he had already progressed to more serious crimes- breaking into vehicles with another youth.

However, is there any evidence that he had started committing violent crimes, even murder, as early as the mid 1960s? Well, in 1966 bookmaker Fred Craven was murdered in his office after he clearly interrupted a robbery. What's particularly interesting about this unsolved crime is that the victim suffered a blow to the head from behind, clearly reminiscent of Sutcliffe's MO.

Sutcliffe also knew the family- he lived less than 100 yards away -and the victim's youngest daughter subsequently revealed that he had been constantly pestering her to go out with him.

Incredibly, Sutcliffe's brother Michael was questioned over the murder, because he wore a "Donovan"-style cap, as did one of the suspects who had been seen in the vicinity of the shop; but he had an alibi and was quickly ruled out. However, what the police didn't know is that Peter Sutcliffe also possessed such a cap, as was confirmed by one of his friends, Keith Sugden. The victim's son has also said that he believes Sutcliffe was responsible, and Detective O'Boyle, who interviewed Sutcliffe over the Ripper murders, pressed for him to be investigated, particularly as local detectives were convinced the victim knew his killer, only to be told by his boss, Jim Hobson, "He only kills women."

A year later, 1967, a taxi driver was violently assaulted with a hammer by a passenger who had been travelling in his cab. Evidence clearly showed that a ball-pein hammer had been used, Sutcliffe's trademark, and in 1981, following Sutcliffe's arrest, the victim picked out his mugshot- the one he had taken following his 1969 arrest.

Moreover, it does seem likely that Sutcliffe has committed a number of violent crimes that he hasn't disclosed- Chief Constable Hellawell, for instances, strongly suspected that he had committed a large number of additional offences during the 1980s and 90s - at least 18, based upon MO, eyewitness statements and descriptions by surviving victims (Bilton, 2003)

Of course, this murder involved the use of a knife, rather than a hammer or rocks in a sock, but serial killer's clearly evolve their MO's over time, and as Sutcliffe would have been only 18 in 1965, I think this could just possibly be the first murder of an inexperienced, fledgling serial killer.

[John G]

edit

Hello,

Of course, my earlier comment "large number of offences in the 80s and 90s" was wrong, as Sutcliffe was arrested in 1981! What I should have wrote is that Sutcliffe was interviewed by Halliwell during those decades with the intention of clearing up other unsolved crimes that bore his MO- as noted, the Chief Constable believed that he could have been responsible for at least 18 other offences, ten of which had been identified by the Byford review team as almost certainly committed by Sutcliffe. However, with the exception of two assaults, including the one on the 14 year old schoolgirl, he was largely uncooperative; or, as Bilton puts it: "...they were reduced to playing a cat-and- mouse game as Sutcliffe revelled in the attention he received from a high- ranking police officer, Keith Halliwell." (Bilton, 2003)

[Limehouse]

Very interesting that this article should appear in the news so shortly after the discussion on this thread.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3044281/Why-police-want-hide-secrets-little-Elsie-s-savage-unsolved-murder-95-years-really-linked-Yorkshire-Ripper.html

[GUT]

Very interesting that this article should appear in the news so shortly after the discussion on this thread.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...re-Ripper.html

Interesting timing isn't it.

The police often hold information back that may, if let out hinder the investigation and/or assist to weed potential "confessors" or for a variety of other reasons.

It was clearly a part of the JtR investigations and continues to this day.

[Ausgirl]

Hi Rob63, Interesting case.. I've been away for a while, but will be reading this over properly some time over the weekend.

Thanks for this.

[John G]

For anyone that's interested a series of 10 radio interviews relating to the Elsie Frost case are now available for download via the BBC i player, which of course can be downloaded from the BBC website. These include an interview with family and information on the cold case investigation.

[jason_c]

For anyone that's interested a series of 10 radio interviews relating to the Elsie Frost case are now available for download via the BBC i player, which of course can be downloaded from the BBC website. These include an interview with family and information on the cold case investigation.

Which is why media interest picked up and further information was released. I notice Rob hasn't posted since the day of his initial posting on this thread. Either he's not bothered about what we now think, or, he's just forgotten. I only mention it because when the initial radio shows came out allsorts of conspiracy loons took to the internet to promote the case.

[Graham]

It's the 50th anniversary of Elsie Frost's murder on 9th October. Very baffling case. One of the current theories is that she stumbled upon a 'homosexual act' taking place in some long grass, and that she knew one of the men involved. This was at a time when homosexual acts between men were illegal and could result in a prison sentence. Whoever killed her must have acted very quickly, as I have read that she was seen alive only about 15 - 20 minutes before her body was discovered by a man walking his dog.

I'll listen to the BBC radio coverage of this case when I have an evening to spare!

Keeping files of unsolved murders closed for several decades is I understand not that unusual, especially if they contain information on suspects who were never charged.

Graham

[OneRound]

I've read that modern scientific methods will be unable to assist this case as all of the clothes Elsie Frost was wearing when she was murdered were destroyed by the police or returned to her parents only a few months later.

Perhaps, if only that had not been so ....

OneRound