Hinterkaifeck?

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  • Ausgirl
    replied
    Originally posted by Rosella View Post
    Thanks, I am. I would love to see what posts there are. Been interested in this case for years, ever since a visit to Germany.
    Awesome! Do you read German at all? If so, may I enlist you for occasional help with some German words?

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  • Ausgirl
    replied
    Lorenz Schlittenbauer -- neighbour to the Gruber farm -- is my prime suspect at this point. There's a great deal which points to him, though there's other suspects worthy of consideration as well.

    LS was certainly all up in Gruber's business (and his daughter...) for many years, causing serious trouble for the family on more than one occasion. I strongly suspect it's him behind both arrests for incest, and also that he had some sort of dealings with Gruber's former maid, who left the farm prior to the murders apparently because the farmhouse was "haunted". However, she may also have been responsible for the incest charges, and something just does not sit right with her, in my mind. Hopefully I can articulate why in posts to come.

    LS also in turns claimed and strenuously denied being the father of little Josef, and this was a hot point of contention between him and Andreas Gruber. Again, there'a a lot of detail I can provide on this, once I smooth out some of the info/translation.

    LS *also* was the person to whom Gruber apparently reported all the weird stuff going on prior to the murders - footprints, mystery newspapers, etc. What I'm curious about, right now, is to whom else, if anyone, Gruber mentioned these things.

    LS was *also* among the party who discovered the bodies - and his behaviour at the scene was so bizarre (tampering with the scene, treating the farm like a second home..his familiarity with all the buildings..and so on) that it immediately caused his two companions (also neighbours of the Gruber farm) to suspect LS was the culprit.

    Whee, I'll spend some time writing up proper notes, including more about LS and some about the other suspects investigated.

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  • Ausgirl
    replied
    Autopsy notes:

    Cazillia Gabriel (daughter Viktoria Gruber): lower jaw shattered, cervical injury due to shock, severe head injuries. Skull was smashed with several blows and her neck revealed a wide gaping, transverse wound. On the right of her face was a circular wound. Her face was smeared with blood. In her cramped right hand fingers were hair pieces.

    Cazillia Gruber (wife of Andreas Gruber): bruising near the right eye, seven blows to her head, one in triangular shape. Signs of strangulation, skull cracked.

    Viktoria Gabriel (mother of Cazillia and Josef): nine “star-shaped” wounds to the head, strangulation marks on the neck, right side of the face smashed with a blunt object. A small round injury of a pointed tool on the upper skull. Smashed skull.

    Maria Baumgartner (maid): killed by crosswise blows to the head, face crusted with blood, one head wound was 4cm deep and blood-encrusted probably resulted from a sharp hoe.

    Josef Gruber (son Viktoria Gruber): killed by a heavy blow in the face, top of the bassinet stroller destroyed.

    Andreas Gruber (husband Cazillia Gruber): right half of the face smashed, cheek bones protruding, flesh seemed shredded, face caked with blood.

    All descriptions are awful but it looks like Viktoria and her mother received the most attacks on their heads. Also, they seem to be the only ones with signs of strangulation.

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  • Rosella
    replied
    Thanks, I am. I would love to see what posts there are. Been interested in this case for years, ever since a visit to Germany.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ausgirl
    replied
    Ooh goody, so glad this thread is here!! This has become one of my "pet" cases in the last couple of weeks -- research is just beginning, really, and extremely hampered by the fact that I do not speak German at all (most of the case material is in German and Google translate is .. well.. not terribly adequate where German grammar and vernacular is concerned).

    I've made posts about this on another site, will bring them on over here, if people are interested.

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  • Pcdunn
    replied
    The strangest detail for me was that several of the corpses were found in the barn, "stacked one on top of the other, like toys"-- why?! Very odd case.

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  • SirJohnFalstaff
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert View Post
    The keys reportedly going missing makes me wonder if the daughter smuggled in a lover, perhaps with the idea that he would kill her parents - though why he would kill the daughter and kids is a mystery.

    Do we know who inherited the farm?
    The farm was destroyed the next year. It was during that time that the murder weapon was found.

    I find it weird that they sent the heads to Munich for post mortem.

    Also, the mother and daughter had the most damage, plus some strangulation signs.

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  • Robert
    replied
    The keys reportedly going missing makes me wonder if the daughter smuggled in a lover, perhaps with the idea that he would kill her parents - though why he would kill the daughter and kids is a mystery.

    Do we know who inherited the farm?

    Leave a comment:


  • Harry D
    replied
    Can't people more people aren't interested in this truly chilling case.

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  • Harry D
    replied
    Originally posted by Ginger View Post
    That's always been the strangest part of the affair to me. If you thought an intruder was hiding in your attic, and you mentioned it to your neighbors, wouldn't you ask them to arm themselves and accompany you while you checked it out? It makes me wonder if perhaps Gruber wasn't setting the stage for the murder of his family, but apparently his body was positively identified.
    Yeah, that thought did cross my mind. Also, if you were hiding in someone else's property (while it was inhabited) would you really be so careless as to leave a newspaper lying around?

    I'd be interested to know the source of these details. Could be that the murderer(s) falsely attributed these quotes to Gruber in order to make the police think it was some kind of itinerant who killed them?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rosella
    replied
    I first heard about Hinterkaifeck years ago when I was on holiday in Germany and became friendly with a woman whose family came from the local area. Her parents had been in a nearby village when the murders occurred. Some of what she told me was garbled and muddled over the years as such stories inevitably are.

    However, I got the distinct impression that the Grubers as a family were regarded as secretive and more than a bit strange. As you know, I suppose, there was incest going on between father and daughter. The family weren't liked locally. Herr Gruber may have given the impression that whoever came on to his land he could deal with, without help.

    My friend's parents believed that Victoria's missing husband was to blame, but a neighbour, who ha been sleeping with Victoria, was also a strong suspect. He is believed by writers today to be the murderer.

    Unfortunately there are no books in English on this fascinating case, just a couple of websites. It deserves to be better known. It's certainly remained in my memory for over twenty years.

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  • Ginger
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    In the days leading up to the murder, Andreas had told neighbours that he'd found footsteps in the snow which led from the woods to the farm but not back out again. He'd also been hearing footsteps from the attic...
    That's always been the strangest part of the affair to me. If you thought an intruder was hiding in your attic, and you mentioned it to your neighbors, wouldn't you ask them to arm themselves and accompany you while you checked it out? It makes me wonder if perhaps Gruber wasn't setting the stage for the murder of his family, but apparently his body was positively identified.

    Leave a comment:


  • sdreid
    replied
    It's a lot like the Villisca Ax Murders but, of course, is not as well known because it didn't occur in the Anglosphere.

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  • Harry D
    started a topic Hinterkaifeck?

    Hinterkaifeck?

    I'm sure this has probably been discussed to some extent before but hey ho!

    'Hinterkaifeck' was a small farm in Germany that would stage one of the country's most mysterious unsolved murder cases. In March 1922, farmer Andreas Gruber, his wife, his widowed daughter and her two small children, and the maid were all murdered in their home. In the days leading up to the murder, Andreas had told neighbours that he'd found footsteps in the snow which led from the woods to the farm but not back out again. He'd also been hearing footsteps from the attic, an familiar newspaper was found in the house, and a set of keys had gone missing several days before the crime.

    Autopsies revealed that all of the victims had probably been murdered with a pickaxe and the estimated time of death was put at March 31st. However, this was deemed impossible, because witness statements claimed that smoke was seen coming from the chimney of the farm over the weekend and the cattle appeared to have been taken care of during this time. The remnants of recently-eaten food was also found in the kitchen. This led police to the only conclusion that the murderer(s) had committed this grisly deed and then for some reason remained at the farm for several days before taking off.

    There was speculation that Karl Gabriel, the husband to the Gruber's daughter, Viktoria, might be the killer. While it is reported that Gabriel died during WWI, his body was supposedly never found. Did he survive and murder his wife and her family? It is documented that Andreas Gruber was having an incestuous relationship with Viktoria. Did he find out about this and swear revenge? Only problem with Gabriel as a suspect is that I've read there's several eyewitness testimonies that he did indeed perish in the trenches. Even so, could it have been another lover of Viktoria's who committed a crime of passion? The motive would appear to be a personal one, as there was no sign of a burglary.

    Though there was a lengthy investigation, nobody was ever arrested and the Hinterkaifeck murders remain unsolved.
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