Great Disappearances

[Graham]

G'day Jeff

Slight correction Harold Holt was a darn long way from the Great Barrier Reef when he went missing, the GBR is in Queensland towards the top of Aus, Holt was at Mornington in Victoria, almost as far South as you can go on the mainland.

Hi GUT,

according to the (very little) written stuff I have on the Holt case, he was swimming at a place called Cheviot Beach in Victoria. Is this near Mornington?
My knowledge of Australian geography amounts to bugger-all.

Holt, of course, was very much pro-Vietnam War, and sent thousands of young Aussie troops to "help" the Americans. He was not popular, or so I believe. I also recall that, along with Lyndon B Johnson, he tried to convince British Prime Minister Harold Wilson to send troops to Vietnam. To his ever-lasting credit, Wilson refused.

Graham

[GUT]

G'day Graham

Hi GUT,

according to the (very little) written stuff I have on the Holt case, he was swimming at a place called Cheviot Beach in Victoria. Is this near Mornington?
My knowledge of Australian geography amounts to bugger-all.

Chevioy Beach is in Portsea [a town] on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria, HH was a keen scuba diver and entered very rough seas.

Holt, of course, was very much pro-Vietnam War, and sent thousands of young Aussie troops to "help" the Americans. He was not popular, or so I believe. I also recall that, along with Lyndon B Johnson, he tried to convince British Prime Minister Harold Wilson to send troops to Vietnam. To his ever-lasting credit, Wilson refused.

Graham

I was only about 10 when Holt went missing, I would say that rather than being pre Vietnam War he was pro-America, in a similar way to Australia being pre America in the recent conflicts with Afghanistan, Iraq et al.

Australia was divided over Vietnam as it has been over the more recent conflicts, with some saying USA helped out in WWII and we might need help in the future, so we should help now [or mates help mates] and some saying it's none of our business let them fight their own wars they'll only help us if it suits them to.

[Graham]

OK GUT, understood.

In fact, the trouble in Vietnam began in the late 1950's with the French, and it went from bad to worse until the Americans intervened. That intervention was probably the greatest mistake of policy that the Americans made in the 20th century. Compared with the Americans, the Australian military (and political)
influence on and in Vietnam was zilch. Why they ever decided to get involved beats me.

Lyndon B Johnson went to some pains to get the UK involved in the Vietnam War, whether for reasons of military influence or an attempt to legitimise the conflict, or both, beats me. He used the age-old and pointless argument that totally-capitalist nations use against socialist countries: do you want free false teeth or freedom from Commie aggression? Harold Wilson was as wily an old pro as Johnson, and effectively told him to get stuffed. I was never a fan of Harold's, but to this day I am grateful to him for not allowing this country to get involved in a war that could never be won.

Yes, the Americans certainly did help, and massively, in WW2, and without them things would have been significantly different for Great Britain and what was then the British Empire, and again I for one will remain grateful to the Americans until the end of my days. But Vietnam was different. It was an ideological war, not a war for national survivial, and such wars are never won.

Sorry for all this rhetoric.

Graham

[Mayerling]

OK GUT, understood.

In fact, the trouble in Vietnam began in the late 1950's with the French, and it went from bad to worse until the Americans intervened. That intervention was probably the greatest mistake of policy that the Americans made in the 20th century. Compared with the Americans, the Australian military (and political)
influence on and in Vietnam was zilch. Why they ever decided to get involved beats me.

Lyndon B Johnson went to some pains to get the UK involved in the Vietnam War, whether for reasons of military influence or an attempt to legitimise the conflict, or both, beats me. He used the age-old and pointless argument that totally-capitalist nations use against socialist countries: do you want free false teeth or freedom from Commie aggression? Harold Wilson was as wily an old pro as Johnson, and effectively told him to get stuffed. I was never a fan of Harold's, but to this day I am grateful to him for not allowing this country to get involved in a war that could never be won.

Yes, the Americans certainly did help, and massively, in WW2, and without them things would have been significantly different for Great Britain and what was then the British Empire, and again I for one will remain grateful to the Americans until the end of my days. But Vietnam was different. It was an ideological war, not a war for national survivial, and such wars are never won.

Sorry for all this rhetoric.

Graham

Hi Graham,

Feel free to be rhetorical on Vietnam. In the end, we did learn a hard lesson on that one. I have often felt that if Richard Nixon had been a bit more subtle and clever he would have pulled out quickly from that quagmire, and started a series of investigations on how we got pulled in by the Johnson administration. No need for Watergate tricks - Nixon would have had a field day ripping his predecessor's reputation to shreds, and sending many ex-government officials into prison for stuff regarding matters like the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. But Nixon allowed the foreign policy to get even worse for awhile, while he decided to demonstrate what he could do wrong.

Is it wonder that we Yanks are such cynics now?

As for Crowhurst, somehow if he had been rescued by a passing ship the news would have come out by now.

Hi Gut,

Thanks for the geographic correction. I heard Holt was off the Barrier Reef when he vanished. Most likely he became shark food. Reminds me - that case from the 1940s about the arm or leg in the shark. That wasn't solved either.

Jeff

[GUT]

G'day Jeff

Hi Gut,

Thanks for the geographic correction. I heard Holt was off the Barrier Reef when he vanished. Most likely he became shark food. Reminds me - that case from the 1940s about the arm or leg in the shark. That wasn't solved either.


Jeff

Plenty of arms and legs in sharks around here.

Seems like there's an attack every couple of days in Summer.

[GUT]

G'day Graham

Yes, the Americans certainly did help, and massively, in WW2, and without them things would have been significantly different for Great Britain and what was then the British Empire, and again I for one will remain grateful to the Americans until the end of my days. But Vietnam was different. It was an ideological war, not a war for national survivial, and such wars are never won.

No arguments there.

[Harry D]

Suzy Lamplugh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Suzy_Lamplugh

Lamplugh was an estate agent, reported missing after going to an appointment with someone calling himself "Mr. Kipper" to show him a house in Fulham. Her office diary recorded the essential details of the appointment: '12.45 Mr. Kipper – 37 Shorrolds Road O/S', with the 'O/S' annotation meaning outside the property. Witnesses reported seeing Lamplugh arguing with a man in Shorrolds Road and then getting into a car.

Her white Ford Fiesta (registration: B396 GAN) was found that night outside a property for sale in Stevenage Road, Fulham, about one and a half miles away. The ignition key was missing and Lamplugh's purse was found in a door storage pocket. Police suggested that a black LHD BMW car might have been involved, due to an eyewitness account of a car at the same location as Lamplugh's car in Stevenage Road. It was thought for some time after her disappearance that "Kipper" was her pronunciation of the Dutch name "Kuiper", but despite police investigations, nobody of this name was found to be connected to Lamplugh.

[GUT]

Suzy Lamplugh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappe..._Suzy_Lamplugh

I am pretty sure that I read that this case was the inspiration for an episode of "Rumpole"

[Harry D]

I am pretty sure that I read that this case was the inspiration for an episode of "Rumpole"

Is that so?

One theory is that Suzy was seeing a married man, there was no house viewing, and "Mr. Kipper" was the guy. That certainly sounds plausible if that was her spotted arguing with a bloke and getting into his car. A lover's tiff that got way out of hand?

[GUT]

Is that so?

One theory is that Suzy was seeing a married man, there was no house viewing, and "Mr. Kipper" was the guy. That certainly sounds plausible if that was her spotted arguing with a bloke and getting into his car. A lover's tiff that got way out of hand?

As I said "Pretty sure" not 100% by any means, but if so it would be "Rumpole for the Prosecution".

[Mayerling]

Suzy Lamplugh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappe..._Suzy_Lamplugh

Hi Harry and Gut,

It wouldn't surprise me if John Mortimer (a barrister and keen student of real crimes) borrowed some ideas from an actual case. The Monty Python group turned the Kray Brothers into the immortal Dimsdale Piranna and his brother, and Dimsdale's "imaginary friend" (???) Spiny Norman the giant hedgehog.

Funny thing is, when I saw the story of Ms Lamplugh, the initial stages sounded like a variation on an old unsolved mystery classic: the "Wallace Case". The mysterious client of poor Ms Lamplugh, "Mr. Kipper", was actually seen (it seems) by others, but doesn't he sound a bit like that denizen of Menlove Garden East, "Mr. Qualtrough"?

Jeff

[GUT]

Mortimer has also put together some good work on famous trials.

[Rosella]

The American writer Bill Bryson visited Australia and thought the Harold Holt Memorial Pool (now Swim Centre) in Melbourne was a joke.

Holt was a great ladies man and the presence of one of his girlfriends on the beach that day probably persuaded him into the rough seas.

[Graham]

Re: Suzy Lamplugh, I always felt that John Cannan was a distinct possibility, but he denies it (as he would). Her remains have never been found - I recall seeing from a distance police vans and large marquees when I was driving near ro Pershore in Worcestershire, and I assume this was the 2010 search for her.

I also remember her late mother Diana talking on TV about Suzy's disappearance, and she never gave up trying to get to the bottom of the mystery.

Graha

[Mayerling]

Has anybody here heard of the disappearance of 20 year old Everett Reuss in 1935. He was a young boy and young man who explored the southwest U.S. from 1930 - 1935, but vanished in the ruins of the ancient Indian cliff dwellers in the Utah desert areas near the Navaho and Ute reservations. They thought they found his remains in 2008, but the evidence was later disputed.