JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Wickerman]

All I ask is that you stop flogging a dead horse.

The 'intruder' theory was abandoned years ago for being the nonsense it clearly was.

There are no new witnesses contributing to this case. There is no re-evaluation of the case against Patsy, nor against Burke.
The only on-going investigation concerns the DNA evidence. This has already totally ruled out all members of the Ramsey family.
Maybe you should just pay a little more attention to what the police are thinking (re: DNA) as opposed to what "other people" think (re: idle chatter on forums).

The DNA evidence can only introduce an outside suspect, and as DNA analysis is the only active part of this investigation perhaps the sooner you realize that this implies an intruder the better it will be for your temperament.

The police would not be looking into the DNA again if the intruder theory was totally ruled out.

What idle chatter prefers to rule out has no bearing on the police investigation.

[louisa]

BR was a disturbed child. So would you have been if you had everything - all your parents love - lavished on you until you were 4 years old and then your mother had another child - a daughter that everyone oohed and aahed about - how perfect she was.

JBR took up a HUGE amount of Patsy's time. There is no doubt about it. The more you find out about how time consuming those pagents were, and how much preparation went into them you more you realise that this was much more than the "Sunday afternoon thing" that Patsy claimed it to be.

Burke used to wet and soil his bed. He repeatedly smeared feces all around the house, particularly in JBR's bedroom. There was a new box of candy in her bedroom that he put feces in. He left a huge (grapefruit size) lump of it on JBR's bed. The toilet walls were smeared in the stuff.

Patsy's mother and sisters gave the couple books about how to raise a 'troubled child'. I can find the titles if you wish. These books were found in the bookcase beside the couples' bed. It's one of the points that detectives raised when at last they were able to interview the couple.

Burke was 'home schooled' - he states that himself in the interview he gave 12 days after the murder.

I believe that a plea bargain was struck between the DA and the Ramsey's lawyers - i.e. Burke be released into the care of the parents on the understanding that he receives intensive therapy and anger counselling until he is fit to integrate with other children. That never really happened. He has been off the radar (so to speak) for 20 years.

His father says he has a job in a 'high tech industry' but works from home. For this you can probably read 'plays computer games all day'

His father also proudly boasts "BR has an IRA and an 401 and got these ALL BY HIMSELF!" Wow.

And take a look at BR's interviews. They speak for themselves. Even 12 days after his sister was murdered he shows no interest in it. He's not frightened that the same thing might happen to him. According to this nine year old "I'm moving on with my life".

He was asked to draw a picture of his family. He drew his father a distance away, he drew his mother as the smallest one of the group and he did not draw his sister at all, even though it was just a few days after her murder. His answer? "Well she's dead"

As for BR staying shtum about the murder, he probably hasn't, not completely. There are plenty of people out there who know what happened - the Ramseys lawyers, the DA, The Fleet Whites, the Paughs, to name just a few. And the Grand Jury got it right as well.

I suspect that BR was told by his parents never to say a word about the murder. The parents probably told him he would go to prison and so would they. That would have been enough to scare a 9 year old. If he was asked difficult questions he was to do what his parents always did and say "I do not recall" "I don't remember"

An interesting moment in the BR interview was when he was shown the photograph of the bowl of pineapple. He was acting pretty cocky until then. He suddenly clammed up and pretended not to know what the bowl contained. (His fingerprints were on it btw).

For the last two nights there's been a 3 hour documentary about this case on MORE4 channel. To anyone who still believes in any other theory, other than the murder was committed within the family, it's probably an eye opener.

[Abby Normal]

BR was a disturbed child. So would you have been if you had everything - all your parents love - lavished on you until you were 4 years old and then your mother had another child - a daughter that everyone oohed and aahed about - how perfect she was.

JBR took up a HUGE amount of Patsy's time. There is no doubt about it. The more you find out about how time consuming those pagents were, and how much preparation went into them you more you realise that this was much more than the "Sunday afternoon thing" that Patsy claimed it to be.

Burke used to wet and soil his bed. He repeatedly smeared feces all around the house, particularly in JBR's bedroom. There was a new box of candy in her bedroom that he put feces in. He left a huge (grapefruit size) lump of it on JBR's bed. The toilet walls were smeared in the stuff.

Patsy's mother and sisters gave the couple books about how to raise a 'troubled child'. I can find the titles if you wish. These books were found in the bookcase beside the couples' bed. It's one of the points that detectives raised when at last they were able to interview the couple.

Burke was 'home schooled' - he states that himself in the interview he gave 12 days after the murder.

I believe that a plea bargain was struck between the DA and the Ramsey's lawyers - i.e. Burke be released into the care of the parents on the understanding that he receives intensive therapy and anger counselling until he is fit to integrate with other children. That never really happened. He has been off the radar (so to speak) for 20 years.

His father says he has a job in a 'high tech industry' but works from home. For this you can probably read 'plays computer games all day'

His father also proudly boasts "BR has an IRA and an 401 and got these ALL BY HIMSELF!" Wow.

And take a look at BR's interviews. They speak for themselves. Even 12 days after his sister was murdered he shows no interest in it. He's not frightened that the same thing might happen to him. According to this nine year old "I'm moving on with my life".

He was asked to draw a picture of his family. He drew his father a distance away, he drew his mother as the smallest one of the group and he did not draw his sister at all, even though it was just a few days after her murder. His answer? "Well she's dead"

As for BR staying shtum about the murder, he probably hasn't, not completely. There are plenty of people out there who know what happened - the Ramseys lawyers, the DA, The Fleet Whites, the Paughs, to name just a few. And the Grand Jury got it right as well.

I suspect that BR was told by his parents never to say a word about the murder. The parents probably told him he would go to prison and so would they. That would have been enough to scare a 9 year old. If he was asked difficult questions he was to do what his parents always did and say "I do not recall" "I don't remember"

An interesting moment in the BR interview was when he was shown the photograph of the bowl of pineapple. He was acting pretty cocky until then. He suddenly clammed up and pretended not to know what the bowl contained. (His fingerprints were on it btw).

For the last two nights there's been a 3 hour documentary about this case on MORE4 channel. To anyone who still believes in any other theory, other than the murder was committed within the family, it's probably an eye opener.

Hi Louise
I did not know about the Burke and smearing feces thing. What is the source for this?

To me this is almost a game changer. A child that distturbed to do something like that is capable of doing almost anything. That bizarre behavior exhibits incredible anger, jeoulosy god knows what else. A kid capable of that is capable of anything, including fantasizing about strangling his sister playing with ligatures and constructing a garrote.

What is the source?

[louisa]

Hi Abby,

There are loads of refs to the smeared feces. I have selected a few websites which refer to it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3799601/Claims-JonBenet-Ramsey-killed-older-brother-Burke-smeared-feces-wall.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1826692/jonbenet-ramseys-disturbed-brother-smeared-her-bedroom-and-christmas-presents-with-poo-amid-claims-he-killed-the-six-year-old-beauty-queen/

This is a page from Websleuths, It's just one of the many threads where the JBR case is discussed. This particular thread is about Burke. You can scroll forwards and backwards to read all the posts, there have been hundreds. I can't isolate all the posts that refer to his habit of smearing feces but they are there.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?317630-Was-Burke-Involved-4/page152&highlight=feces

Anyhow....MERRY CHRISTMAS to everyone!
.

[Pcdunn]

Merry Christmas, Louisa. Thank you for the links above. Will check them out later.

[Pcdunn]

Just on the news tonight: Burke Ramsey has filed a lawsuit against CBS Television for their special in which several experts pointed the finger at him as the killer of his little sister. This is his second defamation lawsuit, apparently, he previously filed one against a retired forensic expert for his comments about suspecting nine-year-old Burke.

Also, from Denver local news, they are testing the clothing in evidence for the Ramsey case again, hoping to get better results.

[Harry D]

He was asked to draw a picture of his family. He drew his father a distance away, he drew his mother as the smallest one of the group and he did not draw his sister at all, even though it was just a few days after her murder. His answer? "Well she's dead"

And you don't think this emotional dissonance might have been a young boy's way of dealing with his grief?

[louisa]

Just on the news tonight: Burke Ramsey has filed a lawsuit against CBS Television for their special in which several experts pointed the finger at him as the killer of his little sister. This is his second defamation lawsuit, apparently, he previously filed one against a retired forensic expert for his comments about suspecting nine-year-old Burke.

Also, from Denver local news, they are testing the clothing in evidence for the Ramsey case again, hoping to get better results.

$750M seems a lot for hurt feelings. I think the lawyers made up a figure and doubled it. Everyone is getting greedy in this case. Haven't they made enough money out of this little girl?

BR can't sue for lost wages as I doubt if he has those.

Defamation of character - what character? He's been off the radar for the last 20 years so nobody really knows anything about him or what he's been doing.

It sickens me that the Ramseys want to gag anyone who dares to make a valid suggestion to what really happened on that night.

There has been no indication that the Ramseys EVER tried to find the person (they want us to believe) who did this.

[louisa]

And you don't think this emotional dissonance might have been a young boy's way of dealing with his grief?

I'm no psychologist but I saw no sign of grief, and neither did anyone else.

[Henry Flower]

$750M seems a lot for hurt feelings. I think the lawyers made up a figure and doubled it. Everyone is getting greedy in this case. Haven't they made enough money out of this little girl?

BR can't sue for lost wages as I doubt if he has those.

Defamation of character - what character? He's been off the radar for the last 20 years so nobody really knows anything about him or what he's been doing.

It sickens me that the Ramseys want to gag anyone who dares to make a valid suggestion to what really happened on that night.

There has been no indication that the Ramseys EVER tried to find the person (they want us to believe) who did this.

And almost every word of this can also be said about a certain Kate and Gerry.

[louisa]

And almost every word of this can also be said about a certain Kate and Gerry.

Hi Henry,

My theory (for what it's worth) is on the McCann thread. It's another case I'm interested in.

[Harry D]

If the McCanns were guilty of foul play, notice how they didn't leave a body behind to incriminate themselves. Had Madeline died accidentally and the parents covered it up, they might have staged a murder but instead they disposed of the evidence and faked an abduction. For some reason the Ramseys allegedly did both.

[louisa]

My own theory regarding the McCann case is on this page...

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=161&page=63

.

[louisa]

If the McCanns were guilty of foul play, notice how they didn't leave a body behind to incriminate themselves. Had Madeline died accidentally and the parents covered it up, they might have staged a murder but instead they disposed of the evidence and faked an abduction.
For some reason the Ramseys allegedly did both.

As it's a New Year I thought I'd post my theory about the Ramsey case once more.

Here is the reason why the body was found in the house AND why a ransom note was also found........


My Theory

Upon returning home the family started getting ready for bed. Burke and JBR got up and went down to the kitchen. Burke got some pineapple from the fridge and they both had some. They went down to the basement using the flashlight to see their way. JBR started messing with Burke's train set (or something) and he got angry and hit her with the flashlight, causing her skull to cave in. She looked dead.

He panicked and decided to hide her body (because that's the way kids think) and dragged her by her collar (hence the mark on her neck) to the cellar room door but was unable to open it.

BR had a lot of animosity towards his sister. She was her mother's favourite and got all the attention.

He decided to strangle her - for reasons of his own. Maybe to get her out of the way for good. He may have seen weird stuff in one of his magazines. A lot of kids like macabre stuff.

Patsy, who hadn't gotten undressed yet came downstairs to find out what was going on. She saw her child dead on the kitchen floor. THAT is the scream the neighbours heard.

She called John and together they agreed on a plan. They sent Burke to bed with the STRICTEST instructions not to move from the bed or talk to ANYONE. I suspect old Patsy could be quite intimidating when she wanted to be.

Now what to do? Panic panic. How would it look to family and friends, and their church, if JBR was found dead (strangled) in their locked home? They were the only people present.

They HAD to invent an intruder in order to save themselves. That is when they formed a plan. It would be a kidnapping.

Patsy put on plastic gloves, got out her pad and pen and began to write…

They wrapped JBR's body in the white blanket, took her body out to the garage and put her in either Patsy or John's car, then they would drive out and leave her somewhere. Then they got cold feet - supposing they were seen? Or forensics discovered the car had been used a lot later than 10pm when they returned from the party?

Then they devised a better plan……

The next step was to call the police, which Patsy did.

---------------------------------------

The Plan

The Ramseys may have thought that they would NOT actually have to leave the house. They may have thought the police and FBI would turn up and do whatever they needed to do, and then, when the kidnapper's call didn't materialize, would then leave. Leaving the Ramseys alone.

They may have thought that the police would not search the house. Why should they? It was a kidnapping after all. Their child had been 'taken'.

A while later, after the police and detectives had left, the Ramseys would have then called the police again and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called the police. That was going to be their story.

---------------------------------------------------

The house was still, no one was moving. Patsy was pretending to cry and was being comforted by all her friends and the Pastor.

John then realized then that putting JBR's body in the car was a BIG mistake. He had to move her. This is where John's 'missing' time comes into it. While everyone was pre-occupied he went out to the garage, took JBR's body and took her down to the little basement room. He hadn't realised that Fleet White had checked the room earlier looking for JBR. He wrapped the blanket around her and went back upstairs.

John was in mental torment. The police were showing no signs of going; something had to be done.

He couldn't take the agony of waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, that's why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with. And he knew he had to get the family out of there ASAP before the detectives started asking awkward questions. John knew that Patsy and Burke would crack under strong questioning.

John knew he had to distance the family from the crime and that is why (half an hour after he 'discovered' his daughter's body) he phoned his pilot to ready the plane to fly the family to Atlanta. (The flight was later cancelled by telephone by John's friend Fleet White).

After JonBenet was found and after the Ramseys prayed over her they just up and left, Patsy vowed never to come back to that house. They didn't even make sure their daughter got to the morgue. If Patsy was so worried about her baby, she would have stayed close by until they took her child out of the house. They left her behind like she was an old pair of shoes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. John didn't learn, until much later, that Fleet White had already checked the cellar room in the basement that morning and of course had not found the body of JBR (because she wasn't there).

Fleet must have felt rather troubled when John 'discovered' JBR's body in a room where he, himself, had already looked. I think he kept that information to himself, to mull over in his mind. In the end he said nothing but tried to give John some advice, which was ignored.

[Wickerman]

As it's a New Year I thought I'd post my theory about the Ramsey case once more.

Here is the reason why the body was found in the house AND why a ransom note was also found........


My Theory

Upon returning home the family started getting ready for bed. Burke and JBR got up and went down to the kitchen. Burke got some pineapple from the fridge and they both had some.

Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl too, if I recall.

They went down to the basement using the flashlight to see their way. JBR started messing with Burke's train set (or something) and he got angry and hit her with the flashlight, causing her skull to cave in. She looked dead.

He panicked and decided to hide her body (because that's the way kids think) and dragged her by her collar (hence the mark on her neck) to the cellar room door but was unable to open it.

Fair enough, the Wine Cellar door did have a wooden block on the architrave above the door to prevent kids opening the door. So JB's body lay outside this door, roughly where the urine stain was found, and next to the paint tray.

He decided to strangle her - for reasons of his own. Maybe to get her out of the way for good. He may have seen weird stuff in one of his magazines. A lot of kids like macabre stuff.

And what about the two sets of twin abrasions, the tape over the mouth, the hands boubd with cord, and the sexual interference - who did this, and why?

Patsy, who hadn't gotten undressed yet came downstairs to find out what was going on. She saw her child dead on the kitchen floor. THAT is the scream the neighbours heard.

On the kitchen floor?
I thought Burke was in the basement with JB's body outside the wine cellar - how did he haul her body up the flight of stairs, and why?

She called John and together they agreed on a plan. They sent Burke to bed with the STRICTEST instructions not to move from the bed or talk to ANYONE. I suspect old Patsy could be quite intimidating when she wanted to be.

Now what to do? Panic panic. How would it look to family and friends, and their church, if JBR was found dead (strangled) in their locked home? They were the only people present.

They HAD to invent an intruder in order to save themselves. That is when they formed a plan. It would be a kidnapping.

Patsy put on plastic gloves, got out her pad and pen and began to write…

Again, fair enough, but the body already shows distinct signs of torture, then murder. So, naturally the Ramsey's have no intention of anyone finding the body.
They can hardly claim a kidnapping when she has been obviously murdered.
So, it needs to be one or the other, but not both.

They wrapped JBR's body in the white blanket, took her body out to the garage and put her in either Patsy or John's car, then they would drive out and leave her somewhere.

I wasn't aware blanket fibers had been found, in either car?

Then they got cold feet - supposing they were seen? Or forensics discovered the car had been used a lot later than 10pm when they returned from the party?

Then they devised a better plan……

The next step was to call the police, which Patsy did.

This sounds to me more like you finding fault with your own theory, rather than the Ramsey's changing their mind.

---------------------------------------

The Plan

The Ramseys may have thought that they would NOT actually have to leave the house. They may have thought the police and FBI would turn up and do whatever they needed to do, and then, when the kidnapper's call didn't materialize, would then leave. Leaving the Ramseys alone.

They may have thought that the police would not search the house. Why should they? It was a kidnapping after all. Their child had been 'taken'.

Agreed, so they had no intention of anyone finding the body. They can't, because they cannot explain why the body would be tortured & murdered.
Evidence for which is plain to see.

A while later, after the police and detectives had left, the Ramseys would have then called the police again and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called the police. That was going to be their story.

What were they going to say, the kidnappers returned and broke into the house and hid the body in the basement?,
or drove by and threw the body out as they flew passed?
Perhaps, left her on the doorstep all neatly wrapped up in the blanket?

No kidnapper is going to return the body to the house - that's ludicrous. It might be dumped in a wood, or in a ravine at the side of the road, but not at the house.
It isn't a hypothetical plan that is at fault here, it's the theory.

---------------------------------------------------

The house was still, no one was moving. Patsy was pretending to cry and was being comforted by all her friends and the Pastor.

John then realized then that putting JBR's body in the car was a BIG mistake. He had to move her. This is where John's 'missing' time comes into it. While everyone was pre-occupied he went out to the garage, took JBR's body and took her down to the little basement room. He hadn't realised that Fleet White had checked the room earlier looking for JBR. He wrapped the blanket around her and went back upstairs.

John was in mental torment. The police were showing no signs of going; something had to be done.

He couldn't take the agony of waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, that's why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with.

So, first John moves the body from the car to the wine cellar, then a couple of hours later he 'finds' the body in the wine cellar?
He has decided to let the police see the body in it's tortured & murdered state, which will directly conflict with their proposed kidnapping plan?
That doesn't make any sense - all he has to do is wait them out. Eventually the police will leave. They only seized the house after the body was found, not before.

P.S. John didn't learn, until much later, that Fleet White had already checked the cellar room in the basement that morning and of course had not found the body of JBR (because she wasn't there).

Light tests conducted in the wine cellar were not conclusive that White could have seen the blanket from the angle he was at when he opened the door. He didn't say that he entered the room for any distance.