JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

I repeat, I have never said JonBenet was raped, the reason is this clearly, if JB was dead when she was violated in that way then she couldn't have been raped.

I never said she was.

So please desist with claiming that I said, "JB was raped".

What I have said is, the acts committed on her body fall under the category of rape.

Wicksy, you're so funny. You've just contradicted yourself twice.

Now you've just added something that you never stated before in any of your posts "Clearly if JB was dead when she was violated in that way then she couldn't have been raped".

That's a new one, isn't it, Wicksy? You seem to be performing contortions in order to wriggle out of the fact that you stated she was raped. Now you're trying to distance yourself from your claim.

If I were you and had made an error, I would stop constantly bringing it to peoples' attention.




DEFINITIONS OF RAPE (I'm re-posting because some of my links were broken)

"Rape is a statutory offence in England and Wales. According to the law, a rape can only be committed by a male as the penetration can only be done with his penis. If a victim is forcefully penetrated with an object, this is classed as "Sexual Assault by Penetration".
The offence is created by section 1[1] of the Sexual Offences Act 2003:"

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

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http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/statutory+rape

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http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Definitions/1400008450549/1400008450549

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http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/rape/

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http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/rape-statutory-rape-32638.html

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https://www.ageofconsent.net/states/colorado

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

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"Sexual assault occurs when there is penetration (however slight) with an object or body part between a minor who is 14 or younger and a defendant who is at least four years older than the minor. It also includes penetration between a 15 or 16 year old minor and a defendant who is at least ten years older than the minor. This offense is a class one misdemeanor, which incurs a fine of at least $500 (and up to $5,000), at least six months in jail (and up to two years in prison), or both".
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[louisa]

And your earlier scenario that Patsy caused the head injury by accident (trip/fall?) is also wrong.

You can't have it both ways.

The only way you can include a piece of track as a weapon is to have Burke involved, so Patsy didn't cause any injury by accident or otherwise.

If the abrasions were caused by JB being hit with a piece of track then Burke was the culprit, which makes it difficult to attribute the blow to the head to anyone else but Burke also.

So now, you have Patsy finding JB unconscious and instead of calling an ambulance, as any normal parent would do, you have her fabricating a garrote to kill her daughter, and then fabricate a crime scene that can be attributed to a sexual predator?
So why on earth does she then create a kidnapping note?
[It's not like we've haven't pointed out these problems before, but you prefer to ignore them]

Do you see the slippery slope?
Once you head down that path beginning with the train track as a weapon, you end up struggling to justify the rest of the physical evidence.

All those who know what 'O' gauge train tracks look like know that there are three sharp points not two.
<script id="gpt-impl-0.5970419457785152" src="http://partner.googleadservices.com/gpt/pubads_impl_105.js"></script>
In order to make the track fit the wound it must be argued that the middle pin fell out, but the other two didn't?

If you make the weapon fit the wound then surprise, surprise, the weapon ends up fitting the wound - imagine that!

I won't even mention that an abrasion is not a puncture wound which two sharp points would create - just another minor wrinkle in your scenario.

Wicksy I have no idea of what you are making all this fuss about.

You asked me how I thought those marks were made on JBR's body and I obligingly gave you my theory. You were the one who insisted (not so long ago) that the marks were made by Burke's toy train tracks.

For all we know those marks could have been made by snap fasteners or buttons on the killer's clothing.

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As you seem confused (about my theory) I will be posting it again later today about what happened that night. I already posted it a couple of days ago but obviously you need reminding.

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As for your claim the body was being "held hostage until the Ramseys agreed to be interviewed by police" is untrue. It's all in Steve Thomas's book if you want to read something factual.

The funeral was held on the 29th, just a few days after her body was found (on the 26th) so it couldn't have been "held hostage" for long, could it?

Anyway - if the Ramseys genuinely thought that - then surely the best thing for all concerned would have been to give the police their interview, instead of going into hiding?

Which begs the question what did they have to hide?
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[Wickerman]

Wicksy, you're so funny. You've just contradicted yourself twice.

Now you've just added something that you never stated before in any of your posts "Clearly if JB was dead when she was violated in that way then she couldn't have been raped".

That's a new one, isn't it, Wicksy? You seem to be performing contortions in order to wriggle out of the fact that you stated she was raped. Now you're trying to distance yourself from your claim.

If I were you and had made an error, I would stop constantly bringing it to peoples' attention.

All you are succeeding in doing with this is demonstrating that you do not understand the argument.

When the sexual injuries perpetrated on JB's body are demonstrably written into the legal definitions of Rape, which they are, then you have no basis to promote the argument "JB was not raped".
That is only common sense, regardless whether any official at the time identified her injuries as 'rape'.

My reluctance in asserting that she was raped comes from the uncertainty by medical professionals as to whether she was dead or alive at the time, nothing more.
If she was alive it would be rape, if she was dead it would be necrophilia - it's that simple.

I do not see anything complicated about that, but you seem to struggle to understand the simplest of arguments.

Do you want to move onto a subject you do understand?

[Wickerman]

As for your claim the body was being "held hostage until the Ramseys agreed to be interviewed by police" is untrue. It's all in Steve Thomas's book if you want to read something factual.

The funeral was held on the 29th, just a few days after her body was found (on the 26th) so it couldn't have been "held hostage" for long, could it?

It's not my claim, I used quotes from sources (hint, hint), the threat was a fact. The body was NOT held because it would have been illegal.
Eller made the threat to withhold the body, as can be seen in the exchanges.

Anyway - if the Ramseys genuinely thought that - then surely the best thing for all concerned would have been to give the police their interview, instead of going into hiding?

Which begs the question what did they have to hide?

They didn't trust the police, that should be clear.

[louisa]

QUOTES

The city's Mayor Leslie L Durgin said, "I'm extremely concerned about the relationship between the district attorney's office and the Ramsey attorneys. The perception is that they are closer than we thought." Ann Louise Bardach, Vanity Fair author, wrote that there were weekly breakfast meetings between a Ramsey defense lawyer and Peter Hofstrom, the prosecutor's liaison to the Ramsey family.
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James Brooke of The New York Times said "The Ramseys have consistently maintained their innocence. But for four months after the murder, they declined to talk to the police. Instead, they mounted a defense team that sounds like a defense lawyer's Christmas carol: eight lawyers, four publicists, three private investigators, two handwriting analysts and one retired F.B.I. profiler".
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Lawrence Schiller, New York Times bestselling author of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

"From my investigation of the Ramsey murder, Steve Thomas was the lead detective on the case from the beginning and may know what happened better than anyone"
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Gordon Coombes -

"I was told when I went to the DA’s office, ‘Don’t voice against the intruder theory because you may be forced out if you don’t fall in line. If you don’t believe in it, just keep your mouth shut,'” Coombes, who worked under the D.A. between 2008 and 2011, told the New York Post. “It just seemed weird the whole premise of … this attempt to influence the entire agency.”
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Bill Owens was Governor of Colorado from 1999 to 2007. While he was not governor when Ramsey was killed, in 1996, the investigation continued while he was in office.

"You can eliminate the 'outside intruder hypothesis'" as to who killed JonBenet.
"What we have here is a staged crime scene"....Most likely John and Patsy Ramsey staged this to look like a monster predator killed their daughter."
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Lou Smit: "You must have a mental picture of the type of person this is?"

John Ramsey: "My first instinct is, it was a man, but because of the similarities in Patsy's handwriting I wondered if it was a woman".
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Burke Ramsey: "I was lying in bed with my eyes closed, hearing the commotion in the house worrying about what might happen to my parents.”
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Dr. Werner Spitz stated: CBS team members revealed they believe Burke Ramsey, who was 9 years old at the time, killed his sister. A renowned forensic pathologist who was on the show, said he agrees.

“If you really, really use your free time to think about this case, you cannot come to a different conclusion,” Dr. Werner Spitz said. “It's the boy who did it.”

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[louisa]

All you are succeeding in doing with this is demonstrating that you do not understand the argument.

When the sexual injuries perpetrated on JB's body are demonstrably written into the legal definitions of Rape, which they are, then you have no basis to promote the argument "JB was not raped".

What I have said is, the acts committed on her body fall under the category of rape

Wicksy - Stop digging a hole for yourself.

If you genuinely believe JBR's injuries fall under the category of RAPE then you saying she was raped!

Please read the links that I have just posted on the Definitions of Rape

And I'm still waiting for you to post a link to a website that states JBR was raped.
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[louisa]

No child should be dressed like this....

[Wickerman]

The fact that the father immediately went to the basement and found the body. The odds of finding a body in that huge house right away are very low, especially when the police already went down there.

This has been repeated often, yet no-one criticized Det. French for heading to the basement first, nor Reichenbach for heading to the basement when he arrived. Nor Fleet White, who headed to the same level of the house when he arrived.

So why make an issue of it when John started at the same level?

With the exception of Fleet White, those who started at the basement were looking for a point of entry. No-one should expect to find a point of entry up on the third level. The basement is, demonstrably, the most logical area to start looking.

Trying to make John's venture to the basement appear suspicious is false when the others who began their search also started at the basement.
No-one (except Fleet White), was looking for a girl in hiding, but looking for an entry point in to the house.
The first place John started at was the known entry point in the train room where he came in the house several months previous. That appears logical to me.

[Wickerman]

Wicksy - Stop digging a hole for yourself.

If you genuinely believe JBR's injuries fall under the category of RAPE then you saying she was raped!

Please read the links that I have just posted on the Definitions of Rape

And I'm still waiting for you to post a link to a website that states JBR was raped.
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I have to ask this, do you have trouble absorbing what you read?

[Wickerman]

QUOTES

The city's Mayor Leslie L Durgin said, "I'm extremely concerned about the relationship between the district attorney's office and the Ramsey attorneys. The perception is that they are closer than we thought." Ann Louise Bardach, Vanity Fair author, wrote that there were weekly breakfast meetings between a Ramsey defense lawyer and Peter Hofstrom, the prosecutor's liaison to the Ramsey family.
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James Brooke of The New York Times said "The Ramseys have consistently maintained their innocence. But for four months after the murder, they declined to talk to the police. Instead, they mounted a defense team that sounds like a defense lawyer's Christmas carol: eight lawyers, four publicists, three private investigators, two handwriting analysts and one retired F.B.I. profiler".
--------------------------------------------------
Lawrence Schiller, New York Times bestselling author of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

"From my investigation of the Ramsey murder, Steve Thomas was the lead detective on the case from the beginning and may know what happened better than anyone"
----------------------------------------------------
Gordon Coombes -

"I was told when I went to the DA’s office, ‘Don’t voice against the intruder theory because you may be forced out if you don’t fall in line. If you don’t believe in it, just keep your mouth shut,'” Coombes, who worked under the D.A. between 2008 and 2011, told the New York Post. “It just seemed weird the whole premise of … this attempt to influence the entire agency.”
-----------------------------------------------------
Bill Owens was Governor of Colorado from 1999 to 2007. While he was not governor when Ramsey was killed, in 1996, the investigation continued while he was in office.

"You can eliminate the 'outside intruder hypothesis'" as to who killed JonBenet.
"What we have here is a staged crime scene"....Most likely John and Patsy Ramsey staged this to look like a monster predator killed their daughter."
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lou Smit: "You must have a mental picture of the type of person this is?"

John Ramsey: "My first instinct is, it was a man, but because of the similarities in Patsy's handwriting I wondered if it was a woman".
---------------------------------------------------------------
Burke Ramsey: "I was lying in bed with my eyes closed, hearing the commotion in the house worrying about what might happen to my parents.”
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Werner Spitz stated: CBS team members revealed they believe Burke Ramsey, who was 9 years old at the time, killed his sister. A renowned forensic pathologist who was on the show, said he agrees.

“If you really, really use your free time to think about this case, you cannot come to a different conclusion,” Dr. Werner Spitz said. “It's the boy who did it.”

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There's no dispute that everyone had a theory - but no evidence.
What Judge Carnes said was accurate, that only the intruder theory is supported by evidence.

[Wickerman]

Lawrence Schiller, New York Times bestselling author of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

"From my investigation of the Ramsey murder, Steve Thomas was the lead detective on the case from the beginning and may know what happened better than anyone"

So Steve Thomas believes Patsy was the murderer.

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Dr. Werner Spitz stated: CBS team members revealed they believe Burke Ramsey, who was 9 years old at the time, killed his sister. A renowned forensic pathologist who was on the show, said he agrees.

“If you really, really use your free time to think about this case, you cannot come to a different conclusion,” Dr. Werner Spitz said. “It's the boy who did it.”

Dr. Spitz believes Burke was the murderer.

So who is correct, Thomas or Spitz?

They can't both be right.

[louisa]

So Steve Thomas believes Patsy was the murderer.

Dr. Spitz believes Burke was the murderer.

So who is correct, Thomas or Spitz?

They can't both be right.

No they can't. But the killer was either Patsy or Burke.

Who is correct? One of them is correct and that's for sure.

So you haven't even bothered to read one of the better books about the case?
Steve Thomas 'JonBenet - Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation'.

I can recommend it, instead of your usual fiction.

There's no dispute that everyone had a theory - but no evidence.
What Judge Carnes said was accurate, that only the intruder theory is supported by evidence.

Now you know that isn't true.

I am going to put you on the spot now Wicksy. What evidence?

What I have said is, the acts committed on her body fall under the category of rape

Then you're saying she was raped. Correct?

I'll make it easy for you.......

Just answer Yes or No.

This has been repeated often, yet no-one criticized Det. French for heading to the basement first, nor Reichenbach for heading to the basement when he arrived. Nor Fleet White, who headed to the same level of the house when he arrived.

So why make an issue of it when John started at the same level?

With the exception of Fleet White, those who started at the basement were looking for a point of entry.

But John and Fleet were not looking for a point of entry. They had been instructed (by Detective Arndt) to search the house "from top to bottom".

John had already been down to the basement prior to this, to look for a point of entry.
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[Wickerman]

No they can't. But the killer was either Patsy or Burke.

Who is correct? One of them is correct and that's for sure.

No, that's a guess.

Spitz is sure HE is correct, unless you think you are better informed than Dr. Spitz? So his expert opinion should over rule yours, correct?

On the other hand, Thomas is sure HE is correct, unless you think you are informed better than Thomas.

If the experience of these two individuals is anything to go by neither can be mistaken, yet one of them must be, and if one of them can be mistaken, then BOTH can equally be mistaken.
That is the problem, and that is pure logic.

You do not offer a solid argument when you present opposing views. Clearly one must be mistaken, so why not both?

So you haven't even bothered to read one of the better books about the case?
Steve Thomas 'JonBenet - Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation'.

Patience my dear, I'm getting to it.
Though I have read numerous criticism's of the book I'm prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt.
Reasonably, I can't criticize it myself until I too have read it.

I can recommend it, instead of your usual fiction.

You are saying Foreign Faction & Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, are fiction?

In truth they are two of the highest regarded books on the case, and neither are presented as 'suspect' books - unlike the book by Steve Thomas.
Both are about as impartial in the way they present the evidence as can be desired.

[Wickerman]

June 2nd, 1997.
[note: John Meyer performed the autopsy on JonBenet]

"Smit and Steve Ainsworth were still investigating the possible use of a stun gun....
When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the Coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photo's and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun.

Soon after, Ainsworth learned of a 1988 Larimer County murder in which a stun gun had been used on a thirteen-month-old girl, Michaela Hughes, who had been sexually assaulted and killed.
Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist on the case, and showed him the autopsy photo's of JonBenet. Deters agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury, but he didn't think the body had to be exhumed. Nothing more would be learned by examining the skin tissue."
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, Schiller, p.334.

[louisa]

Originally Posted by louisa:

No they can't. But the killer was either Patsy or Burke.
Who is correct? One of them is correct and that's for sure.

No, that's a guess.

Spitz is sure HE is correct, unless you think you are better informed than Dr. Spitz? So his expert opinion should over rule yours, correct?
On the other hand, Thomas is sure HE is correct, unless you think you are informed better than Thomas.

If the experience of these two individuals is anything to go by neither can be mistaken, yet one of them must be, and if one of them can be mistaken, then BOTH can equally be mistaken.

You do not offer a solid argument when you present opposing views. Clearly one must be mistaken, so why not both?

Hellooooo - here's something you should know……We're ALL "guessing"! We all have our theories and that is what this website is all about., So please do not criticize somebody for making a guess. In my case I feel it is an educated guess.

If Spitz is correct then Burke murdered JonBenet. If Thomas is correct then Patsy murdered JonBenet. This is surely what I have been saying?

I have also stated, many times, that my money is on Burke. And PR and JR covered up for him.

The Grand Jury appeared to agree and charged both parents with Child Abuse and Assisting an Offender, so who was the Offender the parents assisted, i.e. staged for? Let's take a guess....somebody a bit too young to stand trial maybe?


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I don't offer a solid argument? !

Have you not been reading my posts over the last week or so? They contain nothing BUT solid arguments. Let's look at your efforts. All you have been doing is nit-picking my posts.

Which brings me to this……yesterday you stated there was plenty of evidence of an intruder. I asked you to supply this evidence. You haven't managed to come up with anything.

Instead you have skirted the issue and babbled on about other more trivial matters.

Give me evidence. I want a comparable list to the one I posted. (Page 103 - Post # 1025).

You are saying Foreign Faction & Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, are fiction?

In truth they are two of the highest regarded books on the case, and neither are presented as 'suspect' books - unlike the book by Steve Thomas.

Both are about as impartial in the way they present the evidence as can be desired.

There are certain parts of these books where the author has theorized, exactly as we are doing.

James Kolar suggests that Burke is the killer, but he doesn't name him, (presumably for fear of getting sued).

June 2nd, 1997.
[note: John Meyer performed the autopsy on JonBenet]

"Smit and Steve Ainsworth were still investigating the possible use of a stun gun....
When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the Coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photo's and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun.

Soon after, Ainsworth learned of a 1988 Larimer County murder in which a stun gun had been used on a thirteen-month-old girl, Michaela Hughes, who had been sexually assaulted and killed.
Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist on the case, and showed him the autopsy photo's of JonBenet. Deters agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury, but he didn't think the body had to be exhumed. Nothing more would be learned by examining the skin tissue."
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, Schiller, p.334.

Can I just say that, as the case stands at present, there is NO evidence or confirmation that a stun gun was used.

Without an exhumation there never will be evidence.

However, there is compelling evidence that a stun gun was not used….

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html

As for Lou Smit - your hero - he was employed by the Ramseys. The Ramseys quickly latched onto his theory of a stun gun because it suited their story perfectly. i.e. Nobody could possibly think a parent could use a stun gun on their kid, therefore it must have been an intruder.

Lou Smit's presentation was not even permitted to be heard by the Grand Jury because even Alex Hunter knew it was ludicrous, full of holes and contained factual errors.

Incidentally, Lou Smit, in his reconstruction of how this 'intruder' gained access to the house, shows the suitcase under the window that he claimed this person 'used as a step'. In fact if you look at the crime scene photos the suitcase is at a completely different angle and location. The man was all smoke and mirrors and just so thrilled to be one of Team Ramseys spin doctors.

They all probably secretly thought he was a fool, but a useful one.

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/window/index.html

As for Steve Ainsworth…

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/15llett1.html

I've already told you what I think of DeMuth. He was in partnership with the Ramsey's lawyers and seems he had no respect from anyone (except yourself).

The very FACT that the Ramseys felt the need to hide behind this amount of lawyers and spin doctors and refused to give the police the interview they wanted, until 16 months after the murder, should tell us all we need to know.

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