JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[lynn cates]

parental intervention

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Actually, I believe that a human being, given the right circumstances, is capable of ANYTHING.

But it seems a bit improbable to me that the family would cover for a cold blooded killing. After all, they might be next.

On the other hand, a young person--blinded by a fit of pique--seems a much better candidate for "parental intervention."

Cheers.
LC

[louisa]

That's odd....I thought it was on free view, hasn't everyone got that?

But if not, you're right, it's almost certainly on the Internet somewhere.

You're right. I've just discovered I can get More4 on my other TV so I'll be able to watch.

I think I already know most of the contents of the show because it's already been discussed to death on Topix and Websleuths.


Here's one messy basement....ignore the open window, that wasn't like that until JR opened it.

http://radaronline.com/videos/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-scene-video-camera-footage/

[Abby Normal]

playing devils advocate here.

IF it was an intruder, I think there are 4 valid suspects:

Helgoth
Oliveara
Santa Bill
Maid


out of all of them, I would lean toward the maid having something to do with it-either putting her husband up to it or someone else. She apparently once asked patsys mother something along the lines of aren't you worried someone might kidnap her shes so pretty. She apparently had been asking to borrow money from patsy and the last time she asked, patsy refused.

this scenario would explain a lot, like the ransome/bonus amount, knowing info about John, layout of house, when they would be gone etc.

and if any link can be found between the maid and one of the other suspects, then I think we might have the solution.

[Harry D]

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Actually, I believe that a human being, given the right circumstances, is capable of ANYTHING.

But it seems a bit improbable to me that the family would cover for a cold blooded killing. After all, they might be next.

On the other hand, a young person--blinded by a fit of pique--seems a much better candidate for "parental intervention."

Cheers.
LC

Hey, Lynn.

I don't think that a nine year-old would've been psychopathic enough to construct a garrote and strangle his little sister to death without that psychopathy manifesting itself later in life, do you? People read whatever they want to read into BR's body language and social anxiety, but excuse me if I'm not ready to condemn the guy based on the softest of sciences. I know Louisa will probably wade in and argue that there was no garroting, it was pure staging by the parents... because most parents' first instinct would be to strangle their daughter's corpse. And the garroting wasn't tentative by the way, as you would expect from a panicking, grief-stricken parent. It had embedded itself deeply into her neck. If the parents wanted to stage a murder, why bother creating a kidnapping scenario? If they wanted to, they could've put JBR in the boot and disposed of the body somewhere. They had all the time they needed to do it. Instead they stored the body and turned the house into a crime scene.

[louisa]

playing devils advocate here.

IF it was an intruder, I think there are 4 valid suspects:

Helgoth
Oliveara
Santa Bill
Maid


out of all of them, I would lean toward the maid having something to do with it-either putting her husband up to it or someone else. She apparently once asked patsys mother something along the lines of aren't you worried someone might kidnap her shes so pretty. She apparently had been asking to borrow money from patsy and the last time she asked, patsy refused.

this scenario would explain a lot, like the ransome/bonus amount, knowing info about John, layout of house, when they would be gone etc.

and if any link can be found between the maid and one of the other suspects, then I think we might have the solution.

Abby - There was No intruder. It's something you need to understand.

Everybody except the family were eliminated from enquiries. All suspects were thoroughly investigated, including the ones you mentioned. All were eliminated.

No evidence of an intruder was ever found.

Other websites have long since realised this and no longer even mention an 'intruder'.

Way back 5 or 10 years ago it was a theory that you could just about run with, but over the course of the last years good sense has prevailed.

Did you read the TRUE BILL - what the Grand Jury had to say?

Only three people were left alive in the Ramsey house on that Christmas night. One was too young to be named in the True Bill but the parents were found guilty of assisting that person.

[louisa]

Hey, Lynn.

I don't think that a nine year-old would've been psychopathic enough to construct a garrote and strangle his little sister to death without that psychopathy manifesting itself later in life, do you? People read whatever they want to read into BR's body language and social anxiety, but excuse me if I'm not ready to condemn the guy based on the softest of sciences. I know Louisa will probably wade in and argue that there was no garroting, it was pure staging by the parents... because most parents' first instinct would be to strangle their daughter's corpse. And the garroting wasn't tentative by the way, as you would expect from a panicking, grief-stricken parent. It had embedded itself deeply into her neck. If the parents wanted to stage a murder, why bother creating a kidnapping scenario? If they wanted to, they could've put JBR in the boot and disposed of the body somewhere. They had all the time they needed to do it. Instead they stored the body and turned the house into a crime scene.

"Most parents' first instinct would be to strangle their daughter's corpse". Is that what you said?

Harry - I have posted my theory on here many times but you clearly have not bothered to read it. You still persist with your nonsense, which you have every right to, of course.

I will quickly re-cap and make a long story short...

The boy hit his sister (either intentionally or unintentionally) causing head trauma that rendered her unconscious. This happened in the basement btw.

He panicked and dragged her by her shirt collar (hence a mark on her neck)across the floor meaning to hide her body in the cellar room (that's how kids think) but was unable to reach the catch so left her outside.

Later (up to an hour later) for reasons of his own - and we may never know exactly what was in his disturbed mind) he strangled her to death.

Patsy came downstairs to find out what the kids were doing. She screamed and called John.

There next hours were non-stop panic. What to do. How wuld it look, their 6 year old strangled in their own (locked) home and only the family present?

They HAD to invent an intruder. That when the staging began - Patsy wrote that ridiculous note.

In my theory the couple decided to hide her body in the hope the police would accept that she had been 'taken' and would not search the premises.

Then when the kidnapper's call did not come the police would leave and the couple could 'discover' their daughter's body. The kidnapper had killed her because they had gone against instructions and called the police.

It's actually mind boggling just how many people still prefer to believe that an intruder came into their home, spent hours wandering around in the dark, abducted a child without her making a sound. Then sat down to write the War and Peace of all ransom notes, having a couple of attempts before settling on one he liked.

Don't forget there was an hour between the head trauma and the strangulation.

He had forgotten to bring a ransom note with him and also forgot to take his victim with him.

And it just so happened that his handwriting matched Patsy's.

That all makes sense does it Harry - rather than accepting a 10 year old is capable of murder? It has already been proved that a 10 year old can render a 6 year old unconscious with one blow of a flashlight and we know he would be capable to putting a cord around a his sister's neck and pulling it tight.

In a recent interview Burke never mentioned anything about wishing they could find the person who murdered his sister. In fact he didn't seem bothered about any of it. A creepy kid and an even creepier adult.

[Pcdunn]

Right, but the Grand Jury reached its conclusion without knowing about the DNA evidence. Granted, the DNA "evidence" is garbage, given how poorly it was processed, as well as how contaminated the body and the scene were, but they didn't have everything presented to them. I don't know if this means it would have disqualified their judgment later if it had gone to trial, or not.

My friend asked a question while we watched the Schiller produced program on "Overlooked": why do they show photos of the basement labeled "Actual Crime Scene Photo" showing the blanket- covered body, if John had carried her upstairs? Did they take her back downstairs to take crime scene photos?
I said I thought it was just the blankets, but that the body wasn't under them.

Does anyone know anything about the crime scene photos?

[Abby Normal]

Right, but the Grand Jury reached its conclusion without knowing about the DNA evidence. Granted, the DNA "evidence" is garbage, given how poorly it was processed, as well as how contaminated the body and the scene were, but they didn't have everything presented to them. I don't know if this means it would have disqualified their judgment later if it had gone to trial, or not.

My friend asked a question while we watched the Schiller produced program on "Overlooked": why do they show photos of the basement labeled "Actual Crime Scene Photo" showing the blanket- covered body, if John had carried her upstairs? Did they take her back downstairs to take crime scene photos?
I said I thought it was just the blankets, but that the body wasn't under them.

Does anyone know anything about the crime scene photos?

it was a picture of just the blankets

[Abby Normal]

Hey, Lynn.

I don't think that a nine year-old would've been psychopathic enough to construct a garrote and strangle his little sister to death without that psychopathy manifesting itself later in life, do you? People read whatever they want to read into BR's body language and social anxiety, but excuse me if I'm not ready to condemn the guy based on the softest of sciences. I know Louisa will probably wade in and argue that there was no garroting, it was pure staging by the parents... because most parents' first instinct would be to strangle their daughter's corpse. And the garroting wasn't tentative by the way, as you would expect from a panicking, grief-stricken parent. It had embedded itself deeply into her neck. If the parents wanted to stage a murder, why bother creating a kidnapping scenario? If they wanted to, they could've put JBR in the boot and disposed of the body somewhere. They had all the time they needed to do it. Instead they stored the body and turned the house into a crime scene.

Hi Harry
I pretty much agree with this. but If I can believe a mother could intentionally sexually abuse, strangle and murder her own daughter and then try to cover up (which I think is the most probable explanation) than I would have to believe that they could do the bizarre things in a cover up for there son also. although IMHO the latter is far more strange than the former.

[Pcdunn]

it was a picture of just the blankets

Thanks, Abby.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
I pretty much agree with this. but If I can believe a mother could intentionally sexually abuse, strangle and murder her own daughter and then try to cover up (which I think is the most probable explanation) than I would have to believe that they could do the bizarre things in a cover up for there son also. although IMHO the latter is far more strange than the former.

Hey, Abby.

We're kinda going around in circles at this point. I don't think JBR's death was your typical child abuse case, if it was one. Yes, she was exploited and objectified through those unethical child pageants, but she wasn't physically or sexually abused as far as we know. JBR was the apple of her mother's eye and she lived vicariously through her. So for one of the parents to murder her on Christmas, of all days, doesn't sit right with me. And I've already given my reasoning for discrediting Burke as the garroter. I've read up enough missing child cases to tell when it's blindingly obvious that the parent or carer is responsible for the child's "disappearance", but due to a lack of evidence it becomes a missing persons case instead of 'parents obviously killed the kid but we don't have enough to prove it' case. JBR could've been one such case but instead the Ramseys decided to stage both a disappearance AND murder.

[Abby Normal]

Hey, Abby.

We're kinda going around in circles at this point. I don't think JBR's death was your typical child abuse case, if it was one. Yes, she was exploited and objectified through those unethical child pageants, but she wasn't physically or sexually abused as far as we know. JBR was the apple of her mother's eye and she lived vicariously through her. So for one of the parents to murder her on Christmas, of all days, doesn't sit right with me. And I've already given my reasoning for discrediting Burke as the garroter. I've read up enough missing child cases to tell when it's blindingly obvious that the parent or carer is responsible for the child's "disappearance", but due to a lack of evidence it becomes a missing persons case instead of 'parents obviously killed the kid but we don't have enough to prove it' case. JBR could've been one such case but instead the Ramseys decided to stage both a disappearance AND murder.

Hi harry no worries
I take it you favor an intruder? I think its very possible also and wouldn't be shocked at all if that were the case. In that light, please see my post #1308 on intruder suspects and let me know what you think.

[Harry D]

Hi harry no worries
I take it you favor an intruder? I think its very possible also and wouldn't be shocked at all if that were the case. In that light, please see my post #1308 on intruder suspects and let me know what you think.

Hah, to be honest with you Abby, I really don't know. I don't claim that the Ramseys never did it, or that there wasn't a cover-up for Burke accidentally striking his sister, but the scenarios posited to explain this don't make a lot of sense. I think that the Ramseys probably have withheld information from the investigation, but self-preservation is not necessarily indicative of guilt. While on the other hand, the intruder theory, with that goddamned ransom note, has its share of problems too. From the suspects you listed, I think if what we know about Michael Helgoth is true, he's as good a suspect as any. Apparently there exists a tape confession of Helgoth admitting to the murder, but this is only according to a former co-worker, John Kenady.

[lynn cates]

All the world's a stage.

Hello Harry. Thanks.

Who is suggesting psychopathy? I referred ONLY to a fit of pique. The rest--to use your word--was staging.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

intelligent

Hello Louisa. Remarkably intelligent theorising.

It is my sincere hope that some of that can be applied to the Ripper "case." If so, the rot may come to an abrupt halt.

Cheers.
LC