JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Harry D]

Why would the family 'cover' for an intruder who murdered their beloved child? Would you?

Who said it was an intruder? What about another family member? Or a close friend?

I'm just not buying that Burke knocks JonBenet out, and instead of calling for medical help or disposing of the body (if they REALLY wanted to cover it up and stage a kidnapping!) the parents strangle her with a torture device and molest her corpse.

Some kind of depraved sex game gone wrong, however? Maybe.

Harry - have you read my theory? Post #1114? Page 112. (It still needs a bit of work)

No, I haven't. Frankly, you and Wickerman's constant back-and-forths have turned into white noise. I'll go back and check it out.

[Wickerman]

Helgoth had nothing to do with the Ramseys; he never worked for them and it appears that he had never heard of the existence of JBR before her death and never seemed interested in her murder, never seemed anxious about the case to anyone.

Yes, I've read that same source too (or one like it).

... (MH's feet were a size and a half bigger than the size 8 print) and no trace of Helgoth was found in the house.

I understood the two boot prints were both partial, size undetermined.

Helgoth was a druggie and would not have been able to get away with a crime like this without leaving a heck of a lot of evidence about himself scattered about - including DNA which would link him to the scene.

He was a very able mechanic and about to start his own business. He was taking Xanax, probably for anxiety. Is this why you call him a "druggie"?

You have to feel sorry for his family - they don't deserve this.
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A surviving family never do.

[louisa]

He was a very able mechanic and about to start his own business. He was taking Xanax, probably for anxiety. Is this why you call him a "druggie"?

I can post the crime scene photos if you wish. The room looks like a squat and there are lots of bottles of drugs lying about. It's not a pretty sight.
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[Wickerman]

I can post the crime scene photos if you wish. The room looks like a squat and there are lots of bottles of drugs lying about. It's not a pretty sight.
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I can see them myself, two containers in a small bowl and five containers nearby. Though I can't read what the labels say, they may all be for Xanax, and all but one may be empty.
It doesn't look like he threw anything away, magazines, empty Dr.Pepper cans - the place is a mess.

So, you assumed he's a druggie because of the pill containers, without knowing what they contained - true to form.

[louisa]

I can see them myself, two containers in a small bowl and five containers nearby. Though I can't read what the labels say, they may all be for Xanax, and all but one may be empty.
It doesn't look like he threw anything away, magazines, empty Dr.Pepper cans - the place is a mess.

So, you assumed he's a druggie because of the pill containers, without knowing what they contained - true to form.

"all but one may be empty" Yes and they may ALL be full!

No Helgoth forensics

The first is that there is no forensic evidence which puts Michael Helgoth at the crime scene - no DNA, no fingerprints. All evidence is based upon the testimony of a shady individual called John Kenady AND of course the fact that Michael Helgoth had Hi-Tec boots. So did thousands of others though and the footprint cannot be dated. Add to that the fact that Burke Ramsey said he owned Hi-Tecs and this particular clue becomes weaker still.

And Wicksy - You have probably already noticed that I am ignoring your childish insults. So please grow up.

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[louisa]

We have to wonder if the R's were ever serious about finding the 'Intruder'?

Once the Grand Jury was disbanded in 1999 it seems they stopped bothering completely. Paying these investigators was just 'lip service' retainers by the looks of it.


Patsy R - Atlanta 2000

Question: One of the things that we are very interested in is that, since you do have and have had investigators working for you on this case, and, as you refer to them as forensic experts or group of experts I believe is what you are calling them, what have they presented to you that you think is significant that would assist us in getting a prosecuteable case against the killers of your daughter?

PR: They haven't presented anything to me.

Question: Have they presented things to John?

PR: I don't know.

Question: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that these people have been, and I am assuming at a fairly large expense, been retained by your family and that, that you -- and obviously you have a great interest in having -- in helping solve the murder of your daughter; correct?

PR. Correct.

Question: But if I understood your response, you are saying that you've never sat down to talk to these people to discuss their findings?

MR. WOOD: She said they haven't presented anything to her in way of a presentation. I don't think she said she wasn't aware, generally, of their finding.

QUESTION: (By Mr. Levin) What your attorney told me is that there hasn't been a formal presentation. Let's talk about informal. Have you sat down personally and talked to any of these people that were retained in order to find out what they have uncovered in this case?

PR. I have not, no.

QUESTION: Have you received secondhand information concerning what information they have concerning possible alternative suspects? And that is an alternative to you and John, obviously.

PR. I don't remember them saying anything about specific suspects.
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[Abby Normal]

Who said it was an intruder? What about another family member? Or a close friend?

I'm just not buying that Burke knocks JonBenet out, and instead of calling for medical help or disposing of the body (if they REALLY wanted to cover it up and stage a kidnapping!) the parents strangle her with a torture device and molest her corpse.

Some kind of depraved sex game gone wrong, however? Maybe.



No, I haven't. Frankly, you and Wickerman's constant back-and-forths have turned into white noise. I'll go back and check it out.

Hi Harry
I agree with you. I find it harder to believe that after some accident where she gets her head bashed in they would stage sexual assault and strangulation.

I think if it was someone in the house it was flat out sexual abuse, torture and murder and the note was then staged to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.

[louisa]

Hi Harry
I agree with you. I find it harder to believe that after some accident where she gets her head bashed in they would stage sexual assault and strangulation.

I believe the son did it all (including the garrotting) and the parents covered up the crime.

The more I read about him the odder he sounds.


Here's an interesting website. You may already know about it? There's a lot of reading.....

http://www.acandyrose.com/1999-BonitaPapers.htm

[Abby Normal]

I believe the son did it all (including the garrotting) and the parents covered up the crime.

The more I read about him the odder he sounds.


Here's an interesting website. You may already know about it? There's a lot of reading.....

http://www.acandyrose.com/1999-BonitaPapers.htm

yes. I'm starting to accept more the idea that Burke could have done it all, including making the garrote, and patsy wrote the note to cover it up.

but in this scenario there was no bashing her because he got mad at her for something-like a semi accident. he lures her down specifically for the purpose of assaulting/sexually abusing her and then ends up killing her.

[Abby Normal]

re burke doing it. it would interesting to know how his relationship with his John evolved as he got older. If its not extremely close, especially considering what they've been through, then it would make me wonder....

[louisa]

re burke doing it. it would interesting to know how his relationship with his John evolved as he got older. If its not extremely close, especially considering what they've been through, then it would make me wonder....

John is still shielding him and advising him. Burke is currently suing CBS (Werner Spitz) for $150M.

The family have made a nice stash of money out of the death of JBR, mainly by suing people. The R's lawyers have also made a lot of money.

His father has been quoted as saying "Burke has a job in a hi tech industry" - well that could just mean that he's in charge of the tea bags.


Somebody on Websleuths made me laugh. They posted this......

"Burke is suing for a retraction, $150 million, a Rolex, a new train set, a clean box of chocolates, and a lifetime supply of Depends".

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MAKING MONEY OFF THE RAMSEY CASE

(Wood and Hoffman are the lawyers. Lin Wood is the Ramseys attorney)

MR. WOOD: "Hey, I made more money handling the Ramsey case than you've made in your whole damn career practicing law, Darnay."

MR. HOFFMAN: -- "you mean instead of settling for chump change, which you've done in all these other cases, you're actually getting paid a decent…."

MR. WOOD: "I've made more money in the Ramsey case than you've made in your entire career as a lawyer, you want to bet on that?"

Quotes from Gideon Epstein Deposition
(Wolf vs Ramsey) May 17, 2002
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[Pcdunn]

The interesting fact about Burke is that the Lifetime movie I mentioned earlier in this thread does seem to be including pointers to his guilt.
-- His outburst of anger at a social worker or child psychologist who was interviewing him for taking a sip from his soda can by mistake.
-- The drawing he made of his family, at the same person's request, in which he drew himself at the top of the page, his father next, and his mother as a small figure at the bottom of the page (and totally left out JonBenet completely). A police observer points out the psychological meaning of the drawing, but his superior dismisses it as "psychobabble".
-- There is a scene of Priscilla White looking over the photos from the party the Ramseys attended. In every one, JonBenet sits close to her mother on the sofa, smiling at the camera, while Burke is sitting on the floor in front of them, head down, averting his gaze from the amera.
-- In one brief scene, an observer looks in Burke's room and sees a strip of paper pinned up with what seems to be letters in Patsy's distinctive handwriting in two rows, rather like the way children copy them out when learning to write (or do I reveal my age by saying this, ha!). Now I don't know where this information comes from, or why the film-makers included it. The obvious conclusion is Burke may have practiced his mother's handwriting. Why? To forge notes for school, or to write that long ransom note? It's not clear. The two-part TV documentary with the experts had them deciding Burke was not involved with the note, that Patsy wrote it, perhaps with input from John.
-- Finally, the movie included a scene with John looking at crime scene photos of his daughter in the privacy of his study, then going out to stand protectively by Burke who is running a remote controlled car in the driveway.

I buy that JonBenet set off Burke by grabbing pineapple from his bowl without using a spoon. I can believe he could have chased her and knocked her over the head with the flashlight or baseball bat or whatever. I'm less sure he could have done garrote torture and molestation, but it makes more sense than his parents doing those things. Could Burke have written the letter to point at Patsy? Maybe, if he despised her as much as his drawing seemed to show. I just don't know.

[louisa]

He lures her down specifically for the purpose of assaulting/sexually abusing her and then ends up killing her.

That is a possibility.

Which reminds me of another factor which could tie in with that. I'll post it later.
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[louisa]

. Could Burke have written the letter to point at Patsy? Maybe, if he despised her as much as his drawing seemed to show. I just don't know.

I know where you're coming from Pat. The note was written in childish handwriting but that was how Patsy used to write on her Christmas cards and notes to friends.

Also The margins, the indentation of paragraphs, the use of acronyms - pure Patsy.

If we were (one day) to be told that Burke wrote the ransom note I would be surprised but not totally shocked.

My money's still on Patsy writing the note - and John giving advice over her shoulder.

Another little thing.....Patsy, coming downstairs and discovering the note - she would have seen it was Burke's handwriting straight away. She wouldn't have allowed the police to see it.
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[louisa]

BURKE'S INTERVIEW

"On January 8 John and Patsy took Burke to the Child Advocacy Center in Niwot, Colorado, through arrangements made by the Boulder Police Department, to be interviewed by Dr. Suzanne Bernhard, a specialist in child psychology. As is customary in interrogations of children, Dr. Bernhard played a game with Burke throughout the interview and the entire interview was videotaped.

"When left alone with the psychologist, Burke appeared to be at ease and even told the doctor that he felt safe, even though he did say say that he had wanted to come that day. Dr. Bernhard thought it was unusual for this child to feel safe. People in this entire town didn't feel safe with the concept that someone was running around that could be snatching children, and this was his own sister and happened in his own home. Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don't feel safe.

"Burke described his father as quiet and that he was always at work, and his mother worked as a mom. Dr. Bernhard explained that most children in interviews will discuss things about the family that angers them even if they love them, but Burke appeared to have difficulty in opening up about his family, similar to children who can't say things because they feel that there are some things they shouldn't say.

"Social Services had previously provided Dr. Bernhard with some history on Burke which indicated an ongoing bedwetting problem, but Burke denied this saying that it happened a long time ago. Children are usually honest about this in interviews, and Dr. Bernhard wondered why Burke was not.

"Many of Burke's other responses also created areas of concern for the doctor. Burke displayed an enormous amount of lack of emotion, almost to the point of indifference, which Dr. Bernhard explained may be attributed to shock, but could also have been a lack of attachment to his family. Since his mother had appeared very emotional when she brought Burke for the interview, Dr. Bernhard thought that perhaps Burke could not deal with the family's emotions and had therefore just withdrawn. Even in response to questions which should have elicited strong emotions, he remained non-expressive. When asked how have things been since your only sister died, Burke responded it's been okay. And when asked if he missed her, he said yep. Burke continuously told Dr. Bernhard that he tried to forget about things and just play his Nintendo.

"When asked to draw a picture of his family, he drew a father figure who was distanced from Burke, a mother figure which was the smallest figure in the picture, and JonBenet was not in the picture at all. Dr. Bernhard interpreted the drawing to suggest that Burke felt his father was not emotionally available to him and his mother was insignificant and did not have a great deal of power. Dr. Bernhard thought it extremely abnormal that JonBenet was not in the family picture at all, since her death had occurred only 13 days prior. Most children continue to include deceased siblings in family drawings years after the death because it is too devastating for them to think about the loss. Burke also told Dr. Bernhard that he was "getting on with his life", another very abnormal reaction for a child who had so recently lost his sibling.

"When specifically discussing the crime, he related that he did not hear any noises that night and that he was asleep, but he admitted that he usually hears when someone opens the refrigerator door downstairs. Dr. Bernhard asked what he thought happened to his sister. Burke, showing the first signs of of irritation during the interview, responded, I know what happened, she was killed. Burke's explanation to the doctor was someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement, took a knife out or hit her on the head. He said that the only thing he asked his dad was where did you find the body, a highly unusual query from a child considering the possible questions a child might ask about the death of a sibling.

"Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head, an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then it wouldn't be a secret."
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