JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

Then charging them both with 'murder' & 'an accessory after the fact', should have been a breeze.
Tellingly, the evidence gathered by police did not support their theory. Which is why the Ramsey's were never charged.

You know exactly why the R's were never charged. Alex Hunter did not sign it. He didn't want the R's to be charged because the case would have gone to trial. The Colorado DA's office only EVER made plea bargains - they were the cheapest option.

If the case had gone to trial and if a jury were crazy enough to find the R's innocent, then Hunter's neck would have been on the block for wasting money. It would have meant early retirement for him.

He couldn't risk that happening.

And when you say the "evidence gathered by police did not support their theory" - what are you saying? The police had a mountain of evidence against the R's. It was presented to the Grand Jury.

If the evidence gathered by police did not support their theory then the Grand Jury would not have found them GUILTY or probable cause.


Read this carefully - very carefully.......

Patsy had one handed down to her exactly the same...........

COUNT VII

On or about December 25 and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennet Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted had committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death.

As to Count VII, Accessory to a Crime:

A TRUE BILL
(signature redacted)
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[louisa]

"One of the main aspects of handwriting identification is pressure pattern".

Agreed. But when somebody uses a felt tip pen there will be no discernible pressure pattern due to its inky nature. Pressure is not applied when writing with such an instrument as the writer knows it is unnecessary.

The handwriting experts that examined the originals made no mention of pressure, which means there was none evident, so it is irrelevant.

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Originally posted by Louisa…

How many people do you know write q as a figure 8?

I don't know, there were six people who could not be eliminated, like the B.P.D., you only focus on one of them.
Care to inform us how many of the other five suspects wrote their 'q' like an '8' ?

The Boulder Police Department? I have no idea what you mean by your above post.

I am stating that PATSY wrote her q's like the figure 8. I ask YOU how many people you know who do that.

Hundreds of other people who gave handwriting samples got ruled out.

And here's a thought….it's rather curious isn't it, that the handwriting of the woman sleeping upstairs that fateful night, just happened to match that of the 'kidnapper'?

And another thought....The Ramseys were given photocopies of the ransom note by their lawyers BEFORE they gave their handwriting samples. Yes, believe or not, that is true.

And regardless of this, Patsy STILL managed to get it wrong. She was just incapable of completely disguising her handwriting.
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[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

I don't think "prove me wrong" is an acceptable case for the prosecution.

Lol. Of course.

And my exaggerated post was only to emphasize if one can get over the seemingly improbable idea that a human being, a mother no less, was capable of sexually assaulting and brutally murdering there child, then it really is a no brainer. It all fits.

No evidence of an intruder, none zilch, outside the house, very weak evidence of an intruder in the house. The statistics overwhelmingly point to someone in the family. The incredible idea that an intruder could abduct, assault and violently murder JonBenet without anyone waking up. The ransome note pad and paintbrush being Patsy's. The note itself probably written by pasty. The ransom amount being johns bonus. Can't remember what items in the house are theirs or not-the flashlight, baseball bat, etc. yeah right. There bizarre behavior of inviting friends over, trying to get out of town, lawyering up on day one, not cooperating with police.

The grand jury was correct to return an indictment on both.

Forget about motive and our failure to grasp that patsy and or John could be a monster. When just looking at the evidence, it clearly points to someone in the house and cover up.

I've been looking at it pretty intensely for the past week or so, Learned a lot and at this point, with all we know, I think in all liklihood it was pasty, maybe John or both together somehow.

The intruder is still possible of course but I'm now at 70/30 it was the Ramsey's.
the main thing for me I think that tipped it, is the note. IMHO patsy wrote it.

[louisa]

My Theory

Upon returning home the family started getting ready for bed. Burke and JBR got up and went down to the kitichen. JBR snaffled a piece of the pineapple from Burke's bowl and he picked up the flashlight and hit her on the head, causing her skull to cave in. She looked dead.

BR had a lot of animosity towards his sister. She was her mother's favourite and got all the attention. He decided to use a garotte on her - as he may have seen in one of his magazines. A lot of kids like macabre stuff.

Patsy, who hadn't gotten undressed yet came downstairs to find out what was going on. She saw her child dead on the kitchen floor. THAT is the scream the neighbours heard.

She called John and together they agreed on a plan. They sent Burke to bed with the STRICTEST instructions not to move from the bed or talk to ANYONE. I suspect old Patsy could be quite intimidating when she wanted to be.

Now what to do? Panic panic. How would it look to family and friends, and their church, if JBR was found dead (garotted) in their locked home? They were the only people present.

They HAD to invent an intruder in order to save themselves. That is when they formed a plan. It would be a kidnapping.

Patsy put on plastic gloves, got out her pad and pen and began to write…

They wrapped JBR's body in the white blanket, took her body out to the garage and put her in either Patsy or John's car, then they would drive out and leave her somewhere. Then they got cold feet - supposing they were seen? Or forensics discovered the car had been used a lot later than 10pm when they returned from the party?

Then they devised a better plan……

The next step was to call the police, which Patsy did.

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The Plan

The Ramseys may have thought that they would NOT actually have to leave the house. They may have thought the police and FBI would turn up and do whatever they needed to do, and then, when the kidnapper's call didn't materialize, would then leave. Leaving the Ramseys alone.

They may have thought that the police would not search the house. Why should they? It was a kidnapping after all. Their child had been 'taken'.

A while later, after the police and detectives had left, the Ramseys would have then called the police again and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called the police. That was going to be their story.

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The house was still, no one was moving. Patsy was pretending to cry and was being comforted by all her friends and the Pastor.

John then realized then that putting JBR's body in the car was a BIG mistake. He had to move her. This is where John's 'missing' time comes into it. While everyone was pre-occupied he went out to the garage, took JBR's body and took her down to the little basement room. He hadn't realised that Fleet White had checked the room earlier looking for JBR. He wrapped the blanket around her and went back upstairs.

John was in mental torment. The police were showing no signs of going; something had to be done.

He couldn't take the agony of waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, that's why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with. And he knew he had to get the family out of there ASAP before the detectives started asking awkward questions. John knew that Patsy and Burke would crack under strong questioning.

John knew he had to distance the family from the crime and that is why (half an hour after he 'discovered' his daughter's body) he phoned his pilot to ready the plane to fly the family to Atlanta. (The flight was later cancelled by telephone by John's friend Fleet White).

After JonBenet was found and after the Ramseys prayed over her they just up and left, Patsy vowed never to come back to that house. They didn't even make sure their daughter got to the morgue. If Patsy was so worried about her baby, she would have stayed close by until they took her child out of the house. They left her behind like she was an old pair of shoes.



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P.S. John didn't learn, until much later, that Fleet White had already checked the cellar room in the basement that morning and of course had not found the body of JBR (because she wasn't there).

Fleet must have felt rather troubled when John 'discovered' JBR's body in a room where he, himself, had already looked. I think he kept that information to himself, to mull over in his mind. In the end he said nothing but tried to give John some advice, which was ignored.
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[Abby Normal]

My Theory

Upon returning home the family started getting ready for bed. Burke and JBR got up and went down to the kitichen. JBR snaffled a piece of the pineapple from Burke's bowl and he picked up the flashlight and hit her on the head, causing her skull to cave in. She looked dead.

BR had a lot of animosity towards his sister. She was her mother's favourite and got all the attention. He decided to use a garotte on her - as he may have seen in one of his magazines. A lot of kids like macabre stuff.

Patsy, who hadn't gotten undressed yet came downstairs to find out what was going on. She saw her child dead on the kitchen floor. THAT is the scream the neighbours heard.

She called John and together they agreed on a plan. They sent Burke to bed with the STRICTEST instructions not to move from the bed or talk to ANYONE. I suspect old Patsy could be quite intimidating when she wanted to be.

Now what to do? Panic panic. How would it look to family and friends, and their church, if JBR was found dead (garotted) in their locked home? They were the only people present.

They HAD to invent an intruder in order to save themselves. That is when they formed a plan. It would be a kidnapping.

Patsy put on plastic gloves, got out her pad and pen and began to write…

They wrapped JBR's body in the white blanket, took her body out to the garage and put her in either Patsy or John's car, then they would drive out and leave her somewhere. Then they got cold feet - supposing they were seen? Or forensics discovered the car had been used a lot later than 10pm when they returned from the party?

Then they devised a better plan……

The next step was to call the police, which Patsy did.

---------------------------------------

The Plan

The Ramseys may have thought that they would NOT actually have to leave the house. They may have thought the police and FBI would turn up and do whatever they needed to do, and then, when the kidnapper's call didn't materialize, would then leave. Leaving the Ramseys alone.

They may have thought that the police would not search the house. Why should they? It was a kidnapping after all. Their child had been 'taken'.

A while later, after the police and detectives had left, the Ramseys would have then called the police again and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called the police. That was going to be their story.

---------------------------------------------------

The house was still, no one was moving. Patsy was pretending to cry and was being comforted by all her friends and the Pastor.

John then realized then that putting JBR's body in the car was a BIG mistake. He had to move her. This is where John's 'missing' time comes into it. While everyone was pre-occupied he went out to the garage, took JBR's body and took her down to the little basement room. He hadn't realised that Fleet White had checked the room earlier looking for JBR. He wrapped the blanket around her and went back upstairs.

John was in mental torment. The police were showing no signs of going; something had to be done.

He couldn't take the agony of waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, that's why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with. And he knew he had to get the family out of there ASAP before the detectives started asking awkward questions. John knew that Patsy and Burke would crack under strong questioning.

John knew he had to distance the family from the crime and that is why (half an hour after he 'discovered' his daughter's body) he phoned his pilot to ready the plane to fly the family to Atlanta. (The flight was later cancelled by telephone by John's friend Fleet White).

After JonBenet was found and after the Ramseys prayed over her they just up and left, Patsy vowed never to come back to that house. They didn't even make sure their daughter got to the morgue. If Patsy was so worried about her baby, she would have stayed close by until they took her child out of the house. They left her behind like she was an old pair of shoes.



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P.S. John didn't learn, until much later, that Fleet White had already checked the cellar room in the basement that morning and of course had not found the body of JBR (because she wasn't there).

Fleet must have felt rather troubled when John 'discovered' JBR's body in a room where he, himself, had already looked. I think he kept that information to himself, to mull over in his mind. In the end he said nothing but tried to give John some advice, which was ignored.
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a tad convoluted for me louisa. I think if Burke did it, he lured her down to the basement, sexually assaulted her, strangled her and bashed her in the head with the flashlight. the parents found out and came up with a plan hence the ransome note.

while I think its possible Burke did it, I find it highly improbable, especially since they let him be interviewed a couple of times. if he had anything to do with it, or knew what did happen, theres no way they would let him get anywhere near an interview/questioning. that I am sure of.

[louisa]

People keep asking "why leave a ransom note if the child is already dead?"
"Why leave a ransom note and leave the body in the house?"

My theory answers all those questions.

From day one I was uneasy with the idea of Patsy using the garotte on JBR but it all makes perfect sense if we presume that it was Burke who committed the crime and his parents covered up for him.


If you read between the lines of the True Bill handed down to PR and JR then you will see that the Grand Jury are saying the R's rendered assistance to a third party in the commission of a crime, i.e. covered up for somebody. Who else could that 'somebody' be except Burke? There were only 3 people in the house.

On 25th or 26th December 1996 John & PR knowingly allowed JBR to be in dangerous situation and she died as a result.

The person they helped in the commission of the crime (covered up for them) had to be a child under 10 years old - otherwise the Grand Jury would have sought an indictment for someone for first degree murder.

In Colorado children under 10 years' old cannot be charged with murder.

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[louisa]

a tad convoluted for me louisa. I think if Burke did it, he lured her down to the basement, sexually assaulted her, strangled her and bashed her in the head with the flashlight. the parents found out and came up with a plan hence the ransome note.

while I think its possible Burke did it, I find it highly improbable, especially since they let him be interviewed a couple of times. if he had anything to do with it, or knew what did happen, theres no way they would let him get anywhere near an interview/questioning. that I am sure of.

Your first paragraph is basically similar to my theory except I stated I thought the first incident had happened in the kitchen. It could have happened in the basement, maybe JBR was messing about with Burke's train set and he didn't like that?

Burke was only interviewed for 20 minutes by a social worker. The questions had been prepared by the Ramseys' lawyers in advance (Burke had his own lawyer) His parents would have rigorously schooled him in what he was to say.

The R's had no choice but to allow Burke to be interviewed.

The police didn't get to interview him properly, as they would have liked to. Chief Beckner made that clear.
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[Wickerman]

Lol. Of course.

And my exaggerated post was only to emphasize if one can get over the seemingly improbable idea that a human being, a mother no less, was capable of sexually assaulting and brutally murdering there child, then it really is a no brainer. It all fits.

It's the "getting over" bit that I can't get over.

When a parent kills a child there is usually a history of either neglect or abuse. These kids were spoiled, both parents doted on them. They had the best of everything.
Thats why an intentional killing is just out of the question, and if there had been an accident causing the head wound then one of the parents would have been on the phone immediately for an ambulance.

So, something else happened, and whatever it was the injuries were so severe at the point of their discovery that they couldn't call an ambulance - there was no way they could pass the injuries off as accidental.
So there must have been more than just the head wound when they found her.

Yet, they let Burke go away to stay at the White's for the day risking him letting something slip - assuming he was responsible.
He was interviewed by a child psychologist, a detective, and another (I can't recall who), and finally he spoke at the Grand Jury.

Not one interviewer believed that Burke knew anything about his sisters death. If this kid was truly involved then he can keep a secret better than the CIA.
Remarkable.

[louisa]

Wicksy - Did you not read my theory about what happened?

All your queries are explained within.


We've long since got past the idea that the R's murdered their child for kicks. Or I thought we had.


As for the kid keeping a secret - he probably forgot he killed her.

And looking at the wording in the True Bill - the Grand Jury knew BR was responsible and the parents aided him by covering up the crime. Obviously at just 10 years old he was too young to be prosecuted.

I am wondering if some kind of deal was made between the R's lawyers and the City of Boulder? The kid will not be named as the killer on the understanding that he receives intensive therapy, counselling and supervision around other children?

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[Abby Normal]

It's the "getting over" bit that I can't get over.

When a parent kills a child there is usually a history of either neglect or abuse. These kids were spoiled, both parents doted on them. They had the best of everything.

So, something else happened, and whatever it was the injuries were so severe at the point of their discovery that they couldn't call an ambulance - there was no way they could pass the injuries off as accidental.
So there must have been more than just the head wound when they found her.

Yet, they let Burke go away to stay at the White's for the day risking him Thats why an intentional killing is just out of the question, and if there had been an accident causing the head wound then one of the parents would have been on the phone immediately for an ambulance.
letting something slip - assuming he was responsible.
He was interviewed by a child psychologist, a detective, and another (I can't recall who), and finally he spoke at the Grand Jury.

Not one interviewer believed that Burke knew anything about his sisters death. If this kid was truly involved then he can keep a secret better than the CIA.
Remarkable.

Hi wicksy

Thats why an intentional killing is just out of the question, and if there had been an accident causing the head wound then one of the parents would have been on the phone immediately for an ambulance.

totally disagree. parents kill there children all the time, and try to cover it up,whether there is history of abuse or not.

who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men (or women)?

[louisa]

Yet, they let Burke go away to stay at the White's for the day risking him letting something slip - assuming he was responsible.
He was interviewed by a child psychologist, a detective, and another (I can't recall who), and finally he spoke at the Grand Jury.

Not one interviewer believed that Burke knew anything about his sisters death.

And how do we know that "not one interviewer believed that BR knew anything about his sister's death?" Just because they didn't come out and say it? They knew they would have been sued, that's why. Lin Wood would have been straight on their case.

The members of the Grand Jury obviously thought BR did it. FIRST DEGREE MURDER they said in their True Bill. Unfortunately he was too young to take the consequences.

And Abby's correct in saying that parents kill their kids all the time. I could give you a list, and that would be just the ones that I know about.



And as for the Whites - I suspect the R's knew that the Whites guessed correctly at roughly what had happened.
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[louisa]

http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/death-of-innocent.html

Hmmmmm - possibly too much information!
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[louisa]

Everyone reacts differently?

This idea that the parents shouldn't be suspected because of their behaviour, because everyone acts "differently" is just that - baloney.

If everyone acted differently, we wouldn't have societal norms, we wouldn't have traditions, we wouldn't know how to act appropriately in situations. Not to get into anything too esoteric, but there is a biological mechanism in the brain called "theory of mind mechanism". It allows us to understand and act appropriately in society, because we observe appropriate behaviour and store those reactions in the brain.



ODD BEHAVIOUR EXHIBITED BY THE R'S and reasons why I think they are guilty

In no particular order

I never sensed any great love or romantic feelings between J and P. I know we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors, but just way they related to each other before the body was found is not normal. And he hardly, if ever, comforted her when she broke down during interviews.

Its the fact that they didn't bother to ask BR whether he heard, saw anything after JB went... missing.

The fact that JR himself said that the investigators were hired to prepare his defence, not to look for an intruder.

JRs trips to the basement. And his explanations about that afterwards.

The fact that JR phoned his pilot (half an hour after he found his daughter brutally murdered) to ready the plane so the family could fly out of the state.

What they said on LKL, it was a paedophile but no there is no evidence she was sexually assaulted.

The fact that they spent all the money for their defence but not a single cent to look for an intruder.

I found it shocking that they weren't watching the clock, and then completely hysterical at 10am! Unbelievable. I'll also add that they had no problem with the police showing up in marked cars, and several people coming over.

They were not bothered that the crime scene was being contaminated. In fact they seems to go out of their way to contaminate the crime scene. Remember - these were not stupid people so they must have known what they were doing.

They discover their child missing and they're frantically searching for her. There is 3 pages sitting on the stairs that they didn't write but they do not touch it and only read the first few lines.

One of the big ones for me is them not talking about all the things JonBenet can never experience now, but rather how she's better off dead because she'll never know the hardships Patsy has faced.

John greeting the police 'cordially' on that morning.

John and Patsy being in different rooms.

The fact that when her husband carried their child's lifeless body up the stairs, Patsy stayed in her comfy chair until one of her friends led her into the living room.

Their constant distancing from Jonbenet. "That child", repeatedly neglecting to say her name when it would be appropriate, etc.

Making the whole investigation about them, using every TV appearance not to talk about Jonbenet but to gain public sympathy and act like they are the real victim. I cannot imagine a loving parent acting this way after their child has been murdered.

Carrying JBR like a doll.

JR saying: "My emotion was relief that I had found her, which was good. But she was dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better than not knowing 'cause not knowing where your child is the most horrible feeling a parent can experience."

A 'relief' - when you have just found your child garrotted? (Seriously?)

Sending Burke away to the Whites "because he needs to be safe" (JR's words). Surely the safest place for a child is with his parents?

The fact the R's lawyered-up the day after the murder, each getting separate lawyers, and then yet another one for Burke.

The amount of lies the couple told. Too numerous to mention.

The fact they refused to give formal interviews to the police. Eventually relenting 16 months later.

The idiotic 3 page ransom note with the handwriting so similar to Patsy's and the pad containing false starts found in the kitchen with the pen neatly replaced in it's holder underneath the counter.

All the equipment used in the crime was found in the couples' home.

And last but not least - the very fact that there was no evidence of an intruder.


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[Abby Normal]

Everyone reacts differently?

This idea that the parents shouldn't be suspected because of their behaviour, because everyone acts "differently" is just that - baloney.

If everyone acted differently, we wouldn't have societal norms, we wouldn't have traditions, we wouldn't know how to act appropriately in situations. Not to get into anything too esoteric, but there is a biological mechanism in the brain called "theory of mind mechanism". It allows us to understand and act appropriately in society, because we observe appropriate behaviour and store those reactions in the brain.



ODD BEHAVIOUR EXHIBITED BY THE R'S and reasons why I think they are guilty

In no particular order

I never sensed any great love or romantic feelings between J and P. I know we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors, but just way they related to each other before the body was found is not normal. And he hardly, if ever, comforted her when she broke down during interviews.

Its the fact that they didn't bother to ask BR whether he heard, saw anything after JB went... missing.

The fact that JR himself said that the investigators were hired to prepare his defence, not to look for an intruder.

JRs trips to the basement. And his explanations about that afterwards.

The fact that JR phoned his pilot (half an hour after he found his daughter brutally murdered) to ready the plane so the family could fly out of the state.

What they said on LKL, it was a paedophile but no there is no evidence she was sexually assaulted.

The fact that they spent all the money for their defence but not a single cent to look for an intruder.

I found it shocking that they weren't watching the clock, and then completely hysterical at 10am! Unbelievable. I'll also add that they had no problem with the police showing up in marked cars, and several people coming over.

They were not bothered that the crime scene was being contaminated. In fact they seems to go out of their way to contaminate the crime scene. Remember - these were not stupid people so they must have known what they were doing.

They discover their child missing and they're frantically searching for her. There is 3 pages sitting on the stairs that they didn't write but they do not touch it and only read the first few lines.

One of the big ones for me is them not talking about all the things JonBenet can never experience now, but rather how she's better off dead because she'll never know the hardships Patsy has faced.

John greeting the police 'cordially' on that morning.

John and Patsy being in different rooms.

The fact that when her husband carried their child's lifeless body up the stairs, Patsy stayed in her comfy chair until one of her friends led her into the living room.

Their constant distancing from Jonbenet. "That child", repeatedly neglecting to say her name when it would be appropriate, etc.

Making the whole investigation about them, using every TV appearance not to talk about Jonbenet but to gain public sympathy and act like they are the real victim. I cannot imagine a loving parent acting this way after their child has been murdered.

Carrying JBR like a doll.

JR saying: "My emotion was relief that I had found her, which was good. But she was dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better than not knowing 'cause not knowing where your child is the most horrible feeling a parent can experience."

A 'relief' - when you have just found your child garrotted? (Seriously?)

Sending Burke away to the Whites "because he needs to be safe" (JR's words). Surely the safest place for a child is with his parents?

The fact the R's lawyered-up the day after the murder, each getting separate lawyers, and then yet another one for Burke.

The amount of lies the couple told. Too numerous to mention.

The fact they refused to give formal interviews to the police. Eventually relenting 16 months later.

The idiotic 3 page ransom note with the handwriting so similar to Patsy's and the pad containing false starts found in the kitchen with the pen neatly replaced in it's holder underneath the counter.

All the equipment used in the crime was found in the couples' home.

And last but not least - the very fact that there was no evidence of an intruder.


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A real BIG red flag for me is that, after they noticed shes missing, they don't tear the house apart looking for her!?!

are you kidding me?

[louisa]

A real BIG red flag for me is that, after they noticed shes missing, they don't tear the house apart looking for her!?!

are you kidding me?

Yes, that as well.
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