JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

The police asked John for any ideas who might have done this. To which he said he had none.
The police always pressure the victims to think, anyone, friends, neighbors, employees, anyone...

That's normal procedure, and that's how the White's, along with all the rest became involved. It wasn't a case of John fingering the White's for anything specific, the police insisted he "think of people, anyone" whom they can investigate.

Yes, and he 'thought' of almost every single person he knew, including everyone who worked at Access Graphics.

The special venom was saved for his best friend FW.
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[louisa]

COUNT IV(a):

On or about December 25 and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennet Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

As to COUNT IVa), Child Abuse Resulting in Death.

A TRUE BILL
(signature redacted)

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COUNT VII

On or about December 25 and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennet Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted had committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death.

As to Count VII, Accessory to a Crime:

A TRUE BILL
(signature redacted)


Patsy's Grand Jury indictment reads exactly the same. I don't know the COUNT number, but it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Let's dissect. On these 2 days (both or either) John knowingly allowed JBR to be in a dangerous situation and she died as a result.

So did PR.

It had to be for a child under 10 years old - otherwise the Grand Jury would have sought an indictment for someone for first degree murder.

In Colorado children under 10 years' old cannot be charged with murder.
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[Wickerman]

It's a puzzle to me why you think the police and the FBI had some kind of vendetta against the Ramseys. They were neutral and had nothing to gain or lose.

That isn't true, on the first day Commander John Eller told FBI Agent Walker, "you better look at the family". This, of course, was the beginning of the contention between the Ramsey's and the police. Then three days later Eller put out the threat that he would withhold the body until the Ramsey's give an interview to police.

Eller was well known by many officers for targeting the family. That's why the B.P.D. had to concentrate on the family, they weren't allowed to consider any other theory.

Another ex-detective, your little hero Bob Whitson, wrote a grovelling book telling us how innocent the R's were. You lapped that one up okay, didn't you? And he had also been a police detective.

Whitson was just as bad as the rest of B.P.D. What makes Whitson different was after he retired he studied psychology to get his Ph.D.
That's when he realized he'd been wrong all those years ago while working on the Ramsey case, and why his peers were also wrong at the B.P.D.
Thomas just whined and complained, but didn't really understand what he was dealing with.

Well I think you have read the Ramseys book. Early on in this discussion I think you mentioned it.

At least that comment explains why it is so easy for you to turn a speculation into fact, before you even know what the truth is/was.
It's in your DNA, maybe you can't help it?
You could always do a search for what you think I mentioned?

There is no statute of limitations on murder, but it all depends on whether or not he can be prosecuted on an “accessory” charge if their son is immune from prosecution for murder, which I believe is possible.

I can see you want me to explain the law, as it applies in this case - not that I won't get another argument, I'm sure I will.

Burke was under age at the time, he cannot be charged with anything to do with the commission of the crime even today.
Burke is beyond the law unless, he knows who is responsible, and unless that person is still alive.
In that case he could be charged with something to do with concealing the identity of the killer today.

It isn't 'understandable' - it's preposterous!

That's the reality, like it or not.
This occurs with criminals who have O.C.D., in psychological profiles we refer to them as "organized" as opposed to "disorganized".

[Wickerman]

Ok, here's the litmus test for the 'Patsy did it' theorists.
All the Steve Thomas followers, whoever they may be.

Are there any mothers out there who, on finding their dearly beloved daughter alive but unresponsive on the floor, would not call an ambulance IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner?

Any mothers care to give a reason why they wouldn't?


I'll bet Steve Thomas does not even address this issue.
Even if Patsy accidentally caused the head trauma, a trip and fall, or an accidental push.
Even if Burke had hit JB on the head after she stole some of his pineapple.

How it happened does not matter, the family can think up some excuse to tell the police/doctor after the fact.
Priority one, is to get help, JB is injured she needs an ambulance - so why did Patsy not call for one?

This is the first obstacle in a 'Patsy did it' theory, and there is no theory until this question finds a satisfactory answer.

[louisa]

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Originally posted by Louisa:

It isn't 'understandable' - it's preposterous!

I'm sorry Wicksy but you've just gone down a notch or two. You actually think it's quite 'understandable' for a kidnapper/sexual molestor/murderer to do these things? Clean up? Put things back where he got them?!!!
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That's the reality, like it or not.
This occurs with criminals who have O.C.D., in psychological profiles we refer to them as "organized" as opposed to "disorganized".

Oh, so your 'intruder' now has OCD does he?

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Originally Posted by louisa

It's a puzzle to me why you think the police and the FBI had some kind of vendetta against the Ramseys. They were neutral and had nothing to gain or lose.

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That isn't true, on the first day Commander John Eller told FBI Agent Walker, "you better look at the family". This, of course, was the beginning of the contention between the Ramsey's and the police. Then three days later Eller put out the threat that he would withhold the body until the Ramsey's give an interview to police.

Eller was well known by many officers for targeting the family. That's why the B.P.D. had to concentrate on the family, they weren't allowed to consider any other theory.

Wicksy - you're beginning to sound like a broken record. You're posting the same stuff over and over again. I'm sick of having to state the same reply over and over again, but here goes, hopefully for the LAST time!

A six year old girl is found murdered inside a locked house on the morning after Christmas. Only her family are present. A dodgy three page 'ransom note' is found.

What were they supposed to think? You honestly expected the police to go looking for an intruder before they even questioned the family? Are you nuts?!

An investigation always starts at the centre and works outwards, not the other way around.

I don't honestly think that any investigator worth their salt would need to be told to "look at the family". In 9 cases out of 10 it IS the family who are responsible!

In all fairness to the Police Department and the FBI they DID look far and wide for an intruder and interviewed hundreds of people - all of them came to NOTHING - they were eliminated. The only people who could not be eliminated were the Ramseys.

And we have just been through this 'withholding of the body' rubbish. It was a phrase coined by the Ramsey's lawyers. The body was NOT withheld because the funeral was held on the 29th December (JBR was found murdered on the 26th). Only 2 days between.

Please don't make me have to repeat the above again in a future post, but no doubt I will have to.


As for Patsy (if she was innocent) not calling 911 as soon as she found JBR's body - well she didn't, did she? We've been through all this before. A person would need to get into PR's muddled and scrambled head to understand what she was thinking that night.

Sorry if this sounds a bit rude but do you think you could try posting something new regarding your 'theory'? If you have anything new, that is.


“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”


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[Abby Normal]

Ok, here's the litmus test for the 'Patsy did it' theorists.
All the Steve Thomas followers, whoever they may be.

Are there any mothers out there who, on finding their dearly beloved daughter alive but unresponsive on the floor, would not call an ambulance IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner?

Any mothers care to give a reason why they wouldn't?


I'll bet Steve Thomas does not even address this issue.
Even if Patsy accidentally caused the head trauma, a trip and fall, or an accidental push.
Even if Burke had hit JB on the head after she stole some of his pineapple.

How it happened does not matter, the family can think up some excuse to tell the police/doctor after the fact.
Priority one, is to get help, JB is injured she needs an ambulance - so why did Patsy not call for one?

This is the first obstacle in a 'Patsy did it' theory, and there is no theory until this question finds a satisfactory answer.

Hi wick

she didn't call for one is because she killed her daughter. she was the one who sexually abused her. Patsy was the one who bashed her brains in', Patsy was a total sexual nutcase in the vein of Ellen de Bathory. But it it only came out once! In an explosion of jeolasy and rage that she wasn't the pretty one anymore and her daughter was the one everyone wanted!

she wrote the god dam note. Everyone knows it! jon was asleep. she killed her own daughter!

It was HER paintbrush!


prove me wrong.

you see wick, Shakespeare nailed it 500 years ago. you have no idea what evil lays at the heart of mankind.

[louisa]

Here's something that might be of interest....

The R's had done many media appearances promoting their Intruder theory. They had offered a reward, had a website and established a foundation for JB. Also, they had fairly active investigators. What the interviewing attorneys questioned was why those activities were dropped or diminished after the Grand Jury dispersed? This may have been that the R's activities were strictly for show, not because they believed in an intruder.

The JBR Foundation soon disappeared and so did the money.
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[Abby Normal]

I'm done with all these other theories! its obvious. OBVIOUS patsy wrote the note. JOn, big ole dumbass, took a sleeping pill. Woke up and realized his trophy wife was a nut job.


or just possibly. the other way around. I keep an open mind.

[louisa]

I'm done with all these other theories! its obvious. OBVIOUS patsy wrote the note. JOn, big ole dumbass, took a sleeping pill. Woke up and realized his trophy wife was a nut job.


or just possibly. the other way around. I keep an open mind.

Well done, Abby!

I think that JR had known for a long time that his wife was a nutjob. I suspect the two of them were no longer close but liked to keep up appearances. The body language says it all. Patsy looked like she still wanted John though, but he always looks less than enthusiastic.

They had to stay together after this awful tragedy though. I suspect that John had to hang onto Patsy because without him, she might crack under pressure and the truth would come out.

I get the feeling she was very neurotic.

And if you look at those pageant videos of JBR - she had been programmed! Every twist and turn and coquettish look over her shoulder, had all been rehearsed over and over. She was like a robot, poor kid. It must have been more than just a 'Sunday afternoon thing' as Patsy liked to claim.

Maybe not a lot different to other pageant girls and their moms though? I think it becomes an obsession.

The Paugh family probably thought that a woman's value lay mainly in the way she looked. Very sad.

Even in death the family made up JBR's face and stuck false eyelashes on her. (This was because the Coroner had cut her eyelashes off - it's in the autopsy report under "exhibits")

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[Wickerman]

As I stated, a note written in thick felt tipped pen is not going to give clues about pressure because pressure is not required when writing with such a pen.

My emphasis in bold.

Use of Originals by Handwriting Experts. "Ideally, a handwriting expert should consult the original unidentified writing, not a copy, to increase the reliability of his or her assessment. (SMF PP 218-219; PSMF PP 218-219.)" (Carnes 2003:51).

Gideon "Epstein acknowledges the importance of consulting original documents .....
'All investigative agencies should be aware of the limitations that are imposed upon the Questioned Document Examiner by the submission of copies (Xerox, Photo, or Thermofax) in place of the original. By having to use the copies, the examiner is being deprived of one of the most important elements of scientific examination, the study of line quality of the writing. Those breaks, pressure areas, and even spacing, can often be attributed to the mechanical method of reproduction and not to the actual writing itself.

"The parties also agree that mechanical copying may distort the writings or eliminate subtleties, such as pen lifts, hesitations, pressure or "feathering."

Ted Widmer, director and principal instructor of the International School of Handwriting Sciences in San Francisco, concurs: "one of the tenants {sic} in handwriting identification is we always like to have the original sample. In other words, we like to have the one that was actually written with the pad and so forth, not a photocopy. None of us except for the people directly involved, apparently, in Colorado have actually seen the original note. The reason for that is because one of the main aspects of handwriting identification is pressure pattern. In other words, the force exerted, which is directly related to the neuromuscular system of the person. When you have a photocopy, you can't see that."

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682518/The%20Ransom%20Note#HandwritingAnalysis

To qualify, your list of 'experts' need to consult the originals.
No excuses.

Those experts who DID consult the originals provided a consensus that Patsy did NOT write the ransom note.

How many people do you know write q as a figure 8?

I don't know, there were six people who could not be eliminated, like the B.P.D., you only focus on one of them.
Care to inform us how many of the other five suspects wrote their 'q' like an '8' ?

[Wickerman]

A six year old girl is found murdered inside a locked house on the morning after Christmas. Only her family are present. A dodgy three page 'ransom note' is found.

What were they supposed to think? You honestly expected the police to go looking for an intruder before they even questioned the family? Are you nuts?!

An investigation always starts at the centre and works outwards, not the other way around.

I don't honestly think that any investigator worth their salt would need to be told to "look at the family". In 9 cases out of 10 it IS the family who are responsible!

In all fairness to the Police Department and the FBI they DID look far and wide for an intruder and interviewed hundreds of people - all of them came to NOTHING - they were eliminated. The only people who could not be eliminated were the Ramseys.

Then charging them both with 'murder' & 'an accessory after the fact', should have been a breeze.
Tellingly, the evidence gathered by police did not support their theory. Which is why the Ramsey's were never charged.

[Wickerman]

How much more physical evidence do you need?

Sept. 1997.

"We don't have a filable case," John Eller told Alex Hunter in late September, referring to the Ramsey's - not because there was evidence of an intruder, the commander pointed out, but because there wasn't enough admissible evidence against the Ramsey's. There was no smoking gun."
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, p.401.

Lack of evidence to charge the Ramsey's.

[Wickerman]

Well done, Abby!

I think that JR had known for a long time that his wife was a nutjob. I suspect the two of them were no longer close but liked to keep up appearances. The body language says it all. Patsy looked like she still wanted John though, but he always looks less than enthusiastic.

They had to stay together after this awful tragedy though. I suspect that John had to hang onto Patsy because without him, she might crack under pressure and the truth would come out.

Have you abandoned the 'Burke did it' theory now?

[Wickerman]

Hi wick

she didn't call for one is because she killed her daughter. she was the one who sexually abused her. Patsy was the one who bashed her brains in', Patsy was a total sexual nutcase in the vein of Ellen de Bathory. But it it only came out once! In an explosion of jeolasy and rage that she wasn't the pretty one anymore and her daughter was the one everyone wanted!

she wrote the god dam note. Everyone knows it! jon was asleep. she killed her own daughter!

It was HER paintbrush!


prove me wrong.

you see wick, Shakespeare nailed it 500 years ago. you have no idea what evil lays at the heart of mankind.

Hi Abby.

I don't think "prove me wrong" is an acceptable case for the prosecution.

[Wickerman]

As for Patsy (if she was innocent) not calling 911 as soon as she found JBR's body - well she didn't, did she? We've been through all this before. A person would need to get into PR's muddled and scrambled head to understand what she was thinking that night.

We didn't come up with an answer before, and the question needs an answer if Patsy is being accused.

Because Patsy didn't call for an ambulance when they found JB, there had to be more injuries on her body than could be excused away as accidental.

If there was only a blow to the head they would call for an ambulance, any/every parent would. It isn't difficult to concoct some accidental scenario to explain that.
They had no way of knowing how severe that head wound was.

So perhaps all the physical injuries were on the body when they first find her, with the garrotte already around her neck - no way to explain all of those injuries as accidental, hence no call for an ambulance.

Maybe they both suspected Burke?
They wouldn't allow the police to see his medical history.

This is assuming all we have been told that happened prior to the 911 call at 5:50 that morning, is not true.