JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Hannibal Hayes]

If the torch (can't use flashlight, I'm English, not American!), was the murder weapon, it wasn't just cleaned of prints, it's more likely that it was wiped to remove any forensic evidence connecting it to impacting JB.

If it wasn't the murder weapon, there would be no need to clean it.

Any family prints found on it could easily have been explained. It should have been a light bulb moment for the Police when they were informed that the torch & batteries were clean of any prints at all (if that was the case - apologies if it's not as my detailed knowledge isn't great).

As Louisa says, if you're an intruder, it makes much more sense to take the weapon with you.

[Harry D]

What evidence is there to link the torch to the murder weapon? If I have this right, it's only theorized that the torch could've inflicted the head wound because it was on the kitchen counter. Sure, it could've been been used but then theoretically so could any number of objects, it doesn't rule out an intruder by any means.

[louisa]

If the torch (can't use flashlight, I'm English, not American!), was the murder weapon, it wasn't just cleaned of prints, it's more likely that it was wiped to remove any forensic evidence connecting it to impacting JB.

If it wasn't the murder weapon, there would be no need to clean it.

Any family prints found on it could easily have been explained. It should have been a light bulb moment for the Police when they were informed that the torch & batteries were clean of any prints at all (if that was the case - apologies if it's not as my detailed knowledge isn't great).

As Louisa says, if you're an intruder, it makes much more sense to take the weapon with you.

Hi Hannibal,

Yes it does. You probably know what my theory is by now. I think the parents were over zealous in their cleaning of fingerprints, but considering the amount of panic there must have been during those hours, it's probably understandable.

They didn't leave any fingerprints on the ransom note either, which is even more incriminating, because they both said they handled the note.

They made a lot of mistakes which they probably realised when it was too late and the police were at the door. To leave a ransom note at all was idiotic but I believe they couldn't make up their minds whether to make it look like a murder gone wrong or a kidnapping gone wrong. In the end they decided to try and leave evidence of both.

And the crazy part is that people believed it!

I'm English as well btw., but the torch is referred to so often as a flashlight on the JonBenet websites that I've come to think of it that way.


There's another excellent website, I don't know if you already know about this one...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?23-JonBenet-Ramsey

They seem quite a bit further on with their 'investigations' than we are on this thread. There are masses of threads about it. I haven't read them all (yet).


Keep posting!
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[louisa]

What evidence is there to link the torch to the murder weapon? If I have this right, it's only theorized that the torch could've inflicted the head wound because it was on the kitchen counter. Sure, it could've been been used but then theoretically so could any number of objects, it doesn't rule out an intruder by any means.

Yes, it has only been theorized that the torch was the murder weapon.

However, I have ruled out an intruder because it makes no possible sense, whichever way you look at it.
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[Harry D]

Yes, it has only been theorized that the torch was the murder weapon.

Thought as much.

However, I have ruled out an intruder because it makes no possible sense, whichever way you look at it.

You don't say?

[louisa]

[Abby Normal]

If the torch (can't use flashlight, I'm English, not American!), was the murder weapon, it wasn't just cleaned of prints, it's more likely that it was wiped to remove any forensic evidence connecting it to impacting JB.

If it wasn't the murder weapon, there would be no need to clean it.

Any family prints found on it could easily have been explained. It should have been a light bulb moment for the Police when they were informed that the torch & batteries were clean of any prints at all (if that was the case - apologies if it's not as my detailed knowledge isn't great).

As Louisa says, if you're an intruder, it makes much more sense to take the weapon with you.

HI HH
agree. I have major questions involving that flashlight.

If an intruder brought it, and its the murder weapon- at what point did he use it to strike JonBenet and at what point did he leave it on the kitchen counter? One would think that it was used to hit her when he had her in the basement. at which point hes not going back up to the kitchen and leave it, that's for sure. he would have taken it.

Now I could see if he forgot it and left it there when he wrote the note before they got home, but if that was the case, wouldn't the ramseys have noticed it and been like uh ohh whats this?!? I know if I came home from being out at night and came home and found a strange flash light sitting on my kitchen counter the first thing that would come to my mind is-intruder/burgler was and or is still in my house.

alse-re being clean of prints-an intruder would not wipe clean his own flash light as its something he would bring away with him. intruders only wipe prints on objects that cant be taken away, and/or something they don't want to take away.

plus the ramseys overall reaction to it is extremely odd. first reaction when asked about it by police-not sure if its ours.yeah right. but then the maid said it was theirs and it was normally kept in the kitchen drawer. hmmmm...

[louisa]

HI HH
agree. I have major questions involving that flashlight.

If an intruder brought it, and its the murder weapon- at what point did he use it to strike JonBenet and at what point did he leave it on the kitchen counter? One would think that it was used to hit her when he had her in the basement. at which point hes not going back up to the kitchen and leave it, that's for sure. he would have taken it.

Now I could see if he forgot it and left it there when he wrote the note before they got home, but if that was the case, wouldn't the ramseys have noticed it and been like uh ohh whats this?!? I know if I came home from being out at night and came home and found a strange flash light sitting on my kitchen counter the first thing that would come to my mind is-intruder/burgler was and or is still in my house.

alse-re being clean of prints-an intruder would not wipe clean his own flash light as its something he would bring away with him. intruders only wipe prints on objects that cant be taken away, and/or something they don't want to take away.

plus the ramseys overall reaction to it is extremely odd. first reaction when asked about it by police-not sure if its ours.yeah right. but then the maid said it was theirs and it was normally kept in the kitchen drawer. hmmmm...

Hi Abby,

The flashlight (torch) was a gift to John from his son John Andrew, for either his birthday or Christmas, I can't remember which, so it was definitely theirs.

Perhaps Patsy didn't think the police would associate the flashlight with JB's crushed skull, so she left it there, but thought to wipe it clean first, just in case?

I believe the head trauma was caused in the kitchen and probably by the flashlight. I suspect Burke because I honestly cannot imagine a mother hitting JB over the head with a flashlight.

Burke could have used it though, in a fit of rage after JB stole a piece of his pineapple (?) Odd kid, that one.

I have yet another theory about a piece of the puzzle which I'll post in a while, see what you think.
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[Wickerman]

You're not still going on about that, are you Wicksy?

And it's hearsay (not heresay).

We all know what hearsay means. It means inadmissable evidence.

It's inadmiss i ble, by the way.

No it doesn't, for goodness sakes.
A police witness in court does not give "inadmissible evidence", but very often they do give hearsay evidence.

Hearsay only means "heard said", thats all.

[Wickerman]

In his post yesterday PC Dunn mentioned Fleet White and that got me thinking about his part in this whole crime scenario.

I'm wondering if perhaps he holds the key to the puzzle? Before I go further I would like to say that I firmly believe, as most do, that Fleet is completely innocent of having any part in this crime, but simply got caught up in it.

Thanks to his 'best friend' his life took a huge turn for the worse.

It seems that he and JR were best buddies. In fact JR and Patsy called the Whites immediately after they called the cops, on that fateful morning.

Fleet and his wife were told that JBR was missing (kidnapped)

"White went downstairs (nobody had told him to but he thought he'd have a look around). The lights were on and shadows danced in the big basement. A small broken window in a large room where a model railroad was laid out caught his attention. (Note: If there had been a chair blocking the entrance to this room he would no doubt have mentioned it)

Moving deeper into the basement he found the same white door that had been checked by Sgt Reichenback. Fleet White turned the makeshift latch and pulled the door open toward him. It was totally dark inside this windowless room, and when he could find neither of two light switches, he closed the door, relatched it and went back upstairs. He never saw JB."

Could it be that JB wasn't there when he looked? Now there's a thought!

JR disappeared for a good long while whilst the police were present in the house. Where did he go? Could he have put JB's body in that little room (not knowing that Fleet had checked the room earlier?). When questioned later JR told investigators that he had gone to check whether or not the door to the garage room had been locked. Hmmmmm.

When John and Fleet went down there again and John 'discovered' JB's body in that same room - what would Fleet have thought? He may have known that something was wrong because he did not see JB's body in that dark room when he checked earlier, yet John did see her - immediately, so he says, even though the light was off.

Skipping forward a bit - when the Whites found the Ramseys refusing to co-operate with the police they wondered why, and when the Ramseys 'lawyered up' on the 28th, they were even more concerned.

Fleet told John that he thought he was making a mistake in refusing to be interviewed. What did John do? He told his lawyers to put Fleet and his wife on the list of suspects. He did exactly the same to a great many other friends who tried to give them good advice.
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It jumped out at me that, if John was involved he could have placed JB in that furthest/darkest room in the hope no-one investigating a kidnapping would have reason to look in there.

From where though?

JB could have been laid in the hall outside the wine cellar where that urine stain was found, but it wouldn't make sense to me to have Patsy call 911 about JB being kidnapped if her body was in the boiler room just outside the wine cellar, open to view.

The main problem in this scenario is a timeline, sure anyone can invent one, but we do not possess accurate times of when all these witnesses visited the basement.

All the "could-have's" in the world don't amount to a hill of beans if the evidence isn't there to support it.
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Someone found out that Fleet White had changed/wiped? JonBenet at some point in the past (apparently she used to let any adult do this for her), which may have had provided a little interest in his potential role in this.
I can understand his wife attending to JB in that way, but him?

[Wickerman]

What evidence is there to link the torch to the murder weapon? If I have this right, it's only theorized that the torch could've inflicted the head wound because it was on the kitchen counter. Sure, it could've been been used but then theoretically so could any number of objects, it doesn't rule out an intruder by any means.

True, which is why the discarded aluminum baseball bat drew so much interest.
I don't think it was ruled out either.

[louisa]

How's this for a theory?

There's a couple of loopholes ....but this is the outline so far.......


Further to what I suggested previously, that John moved JB's body from another location (the garage?) to the wine cellar, there could be a reason for this.

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The Plan

The Ramseys may have thought that they would NOT actually have to leave the house. They may have thought the police and FBI would turn up and do whatever they needed to do, and then, when the kidnapper's call didn't materialize, would then leave. Leaving the Ramseys alone.

They may have thought that the police would not search the house. Why should they? It was a kidnapping after all. Their child had been 'taken'.

A while later, after the police and detectives had left, the Ramseys would have then called the police again and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called the police. That was going to be their story.

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When it became apparent that the police were not going to leave the home until the kidnapper contacted them - they HAD to "find" her themselves.

John couldn't take the agony of waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, that's why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with. And he knew he had to get the family out of there ASAP before the detectives started asking awkward questions.

John knew he had to distance the family from the crime (he knew the Patsy or Burke would crack under strong questioning) and that is why (half an hour after he 'discovered' his daughter's body) he phoned his pilot to ready the plane to fly the family to Atlanta. (The flight was later cancelled by telephone by John's friend Fleet White).

After JonBenet was found and after the Ramseys prayed over her they just up and left, Patsy vowed never to come back to that house. They didn't even make sure their daughter got to the morgue. If Patsy was so worried about her baby, she would have stayed close by until they took her baby to the morgue. They left her behind like she was an old couch.

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[Wickerman]

They didn't leave any fingerprints on the ransom note either, which is even more incriminating, because they both said they handled the note.

They didn't leave their DNA on the garrote either, but what was found didn't match anyone in the family.

[Wickerman]

Yes, it has only been theorized that the torch was the murder weapon.

However, I have ruled out an intruder because it makes no possible sense, whichever way you look at it.
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So what, in your opinion, caused the two, twin, abrasions on JB's cheek, and back?

[Wickerman]

HI HH
agree. I have major questions involving that flashlight.

If an intruder brought it, and its the murder weapon- at what point did he use it to strike JonBenet and at what point did he leave it on the kitchen counter? One would think that it was used to hit her when he had her in the basement. at which point hes not going back up to the kitchen and leave it, that's for sure. he would have taken it.

Now I could see if he forgot it and left it there when he wrote the note before they got home, but if that was the case, wouldn't the ramseys have noticed it and been like uh ohh whats this?!? I know if I came home from being out at night and came home and found a strange flash light sitting on my kitchen counter the first thing that would come to my mind is-intruder/burgler was and or is still in my house.

alse-re being clean of prints-an intruder would not wipe clean his own flash light as its something he would bring away with him. intruders only wipe prints on objects that cant be taken away, and/or something they don't want to take away.

plus the ramseys overall reaction to it is extremely odd. first reaction when asked about it by police-not sure if its ours.yeah right. but then the maid said it was theirs and it was normally kept in the kitchen drawer. hmmmm...

I looked to see if John said he went outside, in the dark, that morning.
He could have grabbed the torch/flashlight at that point.
He said he did go out to check a door, I think it was a side-door to the garage that he went to check.
But yes, the item belonged to them.

However, if an intruder scoured the house while the family were at the Whites dinner (he already may have found John's payslips), then it is quite reasonable to believe he found a torch. Then he could more easily move about the house in the dark later that night.