JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Wickerman]

That has always been the stumbling block with my theory and that is why I have returned to believing that Burke did it, everything except write the ransom note.

The strange sexual stuff may have simply been a nine year old boy's curiosity and the garotte - well he may have seen that kind of thing in some magazine. Nowadays kids watch and read all kinds of macabre stuff.

This was twenty years ago, and Burke was only nine.

One huge problem we have is not knowing anything about Burke. His interests, likes and dislikes, what excited him, what irritated him. Did he like war games or cops & robbers, monsters, sports.
How often did he fight his little sister, was he often bossy with her, did he feel left out sometimes.
What was he like at school, and was he ever rough with other kids when playing?

It could also be why the parents got Burke out of the house at the earliest possible opportunity. They would have first told him - in no uncertain terms - that he was NOT to talk to anyone about what happened. I suspect old Patsy could be quite intimidating when she wanted to be.

According to Fleet White it was his idea to take Burke away to play at his house with his son.

[Wickerman]

Pin it on the Ramseys?! But they were guilty.

My point was that there has never been any other crime like this one. It was unique in many ways.

But that works both ways, how can you accuse the Ramsey's of murder, and sexual molesting when neither John nor Patsy have ever been linked with this type of behaviour before?

You say it couldn't be an intruder because this was a one-off crime, yet the same applies to the Ramsey's. They also couldn't be responsible because actions of this nature would also be a one-off.
Neither Patsy or John had ever been linked with mistreatment of their other kids or Burke before JB's death or after.

The "one-off" argument applies to both theories.

[louisa]

If the intent had been to kidnap her, then presumably the plan was she would walk out with him. She must have walked out of her bedroom, and walked downstairs, so whomever she was with was someone she trusted.
Carrying out a dead body was likely not part of the plan. If we consider someone like McReynolds, then due to his heart op. he was in no way capable of carrying her. But that's just one suspect.

JonBenet did not walk anywhere after she was struck with that flashlight.

The police knew who did this crime. They are not looking for anybody else. Their only hope now is that they can secure a conviction of the person(s) responsible.

People and their crazy conspiracy theories!

[louisa]

I heard John say that he was checking the mail to see if any other messages had been dropped in the box, by the kidnapper.

You heard wrong. John would have know that nobody was going to be able to "drop another message into their box" because the mail came straight through their doorway.

The police had taped off the house from around 6am that morning.

I've read you suggest Patsy was something like clever and calculating, but also muddled and confused - which is it?

Both. Absolutely both.

Who would not be muddled and confused when confronted with a tragedy of this magnitude and then having to make these kind of decisions?

I still have not let go of the possibility Burke was involved somehow.

At last! You're seeing sense. Well done Jon!

[louisa]

This garrote was designed for a purpose, with an adjustable noose at one end, and a handle at the other end to apply force.
The making of this garrote is a sound indication that her killer truly intended to torture her, which also means she was alive when it was being applied.

Can we seriously consider Patsy going to this extreme, she was an ex-beauty queen, a materialistic girl, not into sadism & murder?

No of course Patsy did not torture her child. Don't be ridiculous.

THE GIRL WAS DEAD BEFORE THE GAROTTE WAS APPLIED.


Evidence the Head Blow Came First......

Expert Opinion. Drs. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Henry Lee, and Ron Wright all concluded the head blow came first.

Ronald Wright, MD "director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News." RMN stated: "The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said. "She was hit on the head a long time before she was strangled," said Wright. 'That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.' He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation." [Emphasis added]

Head Blow with Little Bleeding Possible. Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

Petechiae Evidence. The presence of petechiae have been used by some as proof that JBR was still alive while strangled, but if death occurred during strangulation, this would imply the head blow came first.

Chief Mark Beckner

He wrote, "We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad."

[louisa]

This was twenty years ago, and Burke was only nine.

One huge problem we have is not knowing anything about Burke.
According to Fleet White it was his idea to take Burke away to play at his house with his son.

That is what he was told to do.

It has been established that a nine year old child is definitely capable of smashing a 6 year old's skull with a flashlight.

You are correct that Burke has been out of the picture for so long that nobody knows much about him.

I suppose we'll have to wait for the load of fiction that will be in his book.

[louisa]

But that works both ways, how can you accuse the Ramsey's of murder, and sexual molesting when neither John nor Patsy have ever been linked with this type of behaviour before?

You say it couldn't be an intruder because this was a one-off crime, yet the same applies to the Ramsey's. They also couldn't be responsible because actions of this nature would also be a one-off.
Neither Patsy or John had ever been linked with mistreatment of their other kids or Burke before JB's death or after.

The "one-off" argument applies to both theories.

No it doesn't and I am frankly shocked that you are still bleating out this mantra in spite of my dozens of posts which you obviously have not read.

Where have I EVER stated that John and Patsy were into any weird sexual stuff? I said that the "sexual molestation" in the case of JonBenet was 'staged' - as the police knew it was.

Of course the couple had never previously been linked to "this type of behaviour" - so don't be ridiculous. What happened to JonBenet's private parts was not sexual, but staging to make it look as though the crime had been committed for sexual purposes.

As no male DNA was found the 'molestation' could have been carried out by a woman - or a child of nine.

Wicksy - Did you honestly believe I thought the Ramseys killed their child ON PURPOSE?

Have you taken leave of your senses, man?

So the "one-off" theory does NOT apply to both scenarios, only to your bogus intruder. Not that he ever existed outside the imaginations of the Ramseys.
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[Abby Normal]

This was twenty years ago, and Burke was only nine.

One huge problem we have is not knowing anything about Burke. His interests, likes and dislikes, what excited him, what irritated him. Did he like war games or cops & robbers, monsters, sports.
How often did he fight his little sister, was he often bossy with her, did he feel left out sometimes.
What was he like at school, and was he ever rough with other kids when playing?




According to Fleet White it was his idea to take Burke away to play at his house with his son.

a point about burke and age.
He was nine.

where we used to live and the time (the mid 70s) things were wide open in terms of parent supervision of kids and basically the kids ran wild in the neighbor hood. there was a kid who was 7 or 8(!!) who was considered by the rest of the kids as weird. he was hyper, often violent argued alot and there fore often a loner. He was mean toward neighborhood pets.

It turns out he was luring young girls into a "fort" he had built and molesting them. a couple even involved penetration with a stick. He was only busted when one girl fought, got away and he hit her in the back with a rock-causing bleeding and a bruise, which then her parents found out and she eventually told them and they went to the police. some other girls finally admitted he did similar things to them but they were too scared and ashamed to come forward earlier.

so I think age cant be a factor in totally ruling him out. It is possible for young boys to be sexual predators, although rare of course.

the construction of the garrote and use of the garrotte is problematic to me however.

[Abby Normal]

Id also like to make another point.

The family theories more often than not involve either patsy or burke actually being the killer. It seems John gets a pass. why? I think it just as likely that if it was done by someone in the house he was killer.

adult males are far more likely to be involved in abuse and sexual homicide of their children than a mother or sibling.

it would explain a lot, and I mean a lot of things, about this case and how it could have happened in the home without anyone else knowing.

It would obviously help explain the use of the garrotte (john was former military).

I guess it makes the note a little more problematic, since it seems Patsy was the one who wrote it.

Maybe john convinced her to write it as the police would never believe a child could be murdered in her own home by an intruder.

[louisa]

Id also like to make another point.

The family theories more often than not involve either patsy or burke actually being the killer. It seems John gets a pass. why? I think it just as likely that if it was done by someone in the house he was killer.

adult males are far more likely to be involved in abuse and sexual homicide of their children than a mother or sibling.

it would explain a lot, and I mean a lot of things, about this case and how it could have happened in the home without anyone else knowing.

It would obviously help explain the use of the garrotte (john was former military).

I guess it makes the note a little more problematic, since it seems Patsy was the one who wrote it.

Maybe john convinced her to write it as the police would never believe a child could be murdered in her own home by an intruder.

Abby, you have raised some good points there.

I wouldn't mind betting that horrible little boy you described went on to commit other sadistic crimes. Serial killers often start off by being cruel to animals. I've often wondered whether they're born like that or their family and circumstances have made them like that? Anyway, it illustrates that kids are capable doing evil things.

I don't know about you, Abby, but I get 'vibes' from people and the Ramseys did not come over (in any of their interviews) as being genuine. I pride myself on always being able to spot a phoney.

If you look at another case on another thread (the little girl who was murdered in Sunderland) you will see a genuinely grieving mother, who had to ask for the camera to be turned off because she became overcome with grief. Talking about her murdered child was too much to take. And I fully understand that.

However, these two (the Ramseys) talk happily about their murdered child, seeming to relish being the focus of the cameras. They 'smelled the greasepaint', you could say, and there was no stopping them after that.

They went on TV holding up a photo of their murdered child with '$100,000 reward' written underneath. That amount of money was nothing to the Ramseys, but presumably they couldn't risk putting $1M, just in case the police managed to pin it on some poor person - and somehow managed to made it stick. That money disappeared, along with other donations put into the JonBenet Memorial Fund. The Ramseys pledged to give $15,000 a year to the Fund, but not a penny ever came forth.

Back to the 'vibes' - I felt it in my water that John and Patsy were lying, it's written all over their body language, but I don't feel that John had any part in it, other than to assist in the 'staging' and then to go on perpetuating the lie. He just doesn't come across as somebody who would do anything to hurt his child, even accidentally.

But I still think it was unforgivable of him (and Patsy) to throw all their friends under the bus in an attempt to divert suspicion away from themselves. It certainly kept the police busy!

Oh, and the garotte - it's been described as 'jerry-built' meaning it was just a crude bit of stick inserted into twine and twisted a number of times. Nothing special or elaborate. You or I could make one just like it.

[Wickerman]

JonBenet did not walk anywhere after she was struck with that flashlight.

She walked from her bedroom, downstairs, and to the basement.
There is no reason to believe the kidnapper did not intend to walk her out of the house.
As I said, this is assuming McReynolds was the kidnapper. He didn't need to carry her anywhere.

The police knew who did this crime. They are not looking for anybody else. Their only hope now is that they can secure a conviction of the person(s) responsible.

Have you told them that their prime suspect is dead?

People and their crazy conspiracy theories!

The Boulder Police? - yeh, I agree.

[Wickerman]

You heard wrong. John would have know that nobody was going to be able to "drop another message into their box" because the mail came straight through their doorway.

The police had taped off the house from around 6am that morning.

You can take that up with John, he is on video saying just that.

Both. Absolutely both.

Who would not be muddled and confused when confronted with a tragedy of this magnitude and then having to make these kind of decisions?

Anything to help your theory fly?

At last! You're seeing sense. Well done Jon!

It is interesting that Patsy's mother bought child behavioral books for the Ramsey's:
The Hurried Child - Growing Up Too Fast, by David Elkind.
Children at Risk, Dobson/Bruer.
Why Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong, Kilpatrick.

It may be an indication of something that needs attention.

[Wickerman]

No of course Patsy did not torture her child. Don't be ridiculous.

THE GIRL WAS DEAD BEFORE THE GAROTTE WAS APPLIED.

The Petechial evidence contests this.
Then you write:

Petechiae Evidence. The presence of petechiae have been used by some as proof that JBR was still alive while strangled, but if death occurred during strangulation, this would imply the head blow came first.

Clearly then, JB was alive when the garrote was applied, as has been pointed out to you numerous times.

Chief Mark Beckner

He wrote, "We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad."

If you notice all the officials talk about the use of the garrote as if it was only applied once.
Yet there are two distinct abrasions around her neck. The lower abrasion, then above it the deep final point of strangulation. Whom ever applied this garrote did so twice.

So, as Abby once theorized, the garrote is applied first (JB is resisting and scratched at her neck), then came the blow to the head, followed by the second application of the garrote which killed her.

The suggested time gap between the head wound and her death is entirely speculation. They are guessing how long it might take for the swelling in the brain to form.

[Wickerman]

That is what he was told to do.

It has been established that a nine year old child is definitely capable of smashing a 6 year old's skull with a flashlight.

You are correct that Burke has been out of the picture for so long that nobody knows much about him.

I suppose we'll have to wait for the load of fiction that will be in his book.

The Ramsey's would allow the police to obtain some medical files. It was conjectured that this concerned Burke's mental state.

[Pcdunn]

The only clue I got about young Burke's interests was watching an interview he had with the child psychologist in which he says he hasn't been thinking a lot about what happened to his sister, because he's mostly been "playing his video games" every day since then. We also know he played a good deal with model trains. I'd say he was a kid who liked solitary, focused play that required close attention to details.

There is a picture of the garrote earlier in this thread, and it doesn't look crudely made to me, Louisa, as it features a complicated knot that I'd have trouble with fashioning.